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Chapter Tactics apply to all models from a given chapter regardless of whether chapter tactics is listed in their profile!

All models drawn from a given Chapter benefit from that Chapter’s Chapter Tactics rules,
as described below.

The FAQ states that Iron Hands vehicles get IWND regardless of whether they have chapter tactics listed in their profile or not. This should be interpreted unilaterally, so that all vehicles from imperial fists get to reroll 1's when rolling to hit with heavy bolters, salamanders get to reroll to wound with flamestorm cannons mounted on vehicles, ect.

The reason chapter tactics are listed specifically is for the purposes of combat doctrines, as well as specific characters from specific factions. (and probably lazy editing)

No the Iron Hands ruling shouldn't be interpreted unilaterally. If the FAQ wanted all chapter tactics to benefit vehicles THEY WOULD HAVE JUST SAID SO and not specifcy Iron Hands only.

The codex makes very clear how to determine if a model is drawn from a particular chapter, i.e. it must have the Chapter Tactics special rule, and the FAQ simply clarifies the Iron Hands' chapter tactics do what they specifically state regarding vehicles.

Doesn't the FAQ also state that Ultramarine vehicles DON'T get the bonuses? i.e. it's self contradictory. I'll try and find the right page, but maybe they've changed it? (the new FAQ's seem fluid at the moment)

{Edit} Found it, Page 3, the Iron Hands one is on page 9.

well feth.

This is just another instance of GW having their heads up their asses.

But wtf do i know? I've only been playing rpgs and strategy games for 2 decades.

Sure, i mean why not? There is absolutely no reason to interpret it that way or anything to indicate that Iron Hands even should be the exception aside from the FAQ. but hey, who cares? And why not give wraithguard D templates and and make Death from the Skies tournament standard and hard nerf the worse codex in the game cause they think its funny?

I concede the point. I'm going to go throw all my mini's in a pile and burn them.

I guess this is how sports fans feel when a ref makes a bad call.

I think that might be a bit of an extreme reaction - remember that this FAQ is still in it's "draft" stage (whatever that turns out to mean), there's plenty of time for them to adjust, correct or clarify things, which is entirely the point of the preview. Several people have already pointed out the inconsistency, so hopefully the full FAQ answer will be better.

 Mr. Shine wrote:
The codex makes very clear how to determine if a model is drawn from a particular chapter, i.e. it must have the Chapter Tactics special rule, and the FAQ simply clarifies the Iron Hands' chapter tactics do what they specifically state regarding vehicles.

Except it doesn't.


The FAQ states that all Iron Hands vehicles benefit from the rule regardless of whether or not they have Chapter Tactics... but the only way for a vehicle to be defined as an 'Iron Hands vehicle' is for it to have Chapter Tactics...


So the FAQ clarifies absolutely nothing.

 insaniak wrote:

 Mr. Shine wrote:
The codex makes very clear how to determine if a model is drawn from a particular chapter, i.e. it must have the Chapter Tactics special rule, and the FAQ simply clarifies the Iron Hands' chapter tactics do what they specifically state regarding vehicles.

Except it doesn't.


The FAQ states that all Iron Hands vehicles benefit from the rule regardless of whether or not they have Chapter Tactics... but the only way for a vehicle to be defined as an 'Iron Hands vehicle' is for it to have Chapter Tactics...


So the FAQ clarifies absolutely nothing.

This just strikes me as patently false.

How did you determine whether a given model was an Ultramarines or Iron Hands model in 5th edition?

 Traditio wrote:
This just strikes me as patently false.

How did you determine whether a given model was an Ultramarines or Iron Hands model in 5th edition?

You didn't, because the rule in question did not exist in 5th edition.

 Traditio wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Mr. Shine wrote:
The codex makes very clear how to determine if a model is drawn from a particular chapter, i.e. it must have the Chapter Tactics special rule, and the FAQ simply clarifies the Iron Hands' chapter tactics do what they specifically state regarding vehicles.

Except it doesn't.


The FAQ states that all Iron Hands vehicles benefit from the rule regardless of whether or not they have Chapter Tactics... but the only way for a vehicle to be defined as an 'Iron Hands vehicle' is for it to have Chapter Tactics...


So the FAQ clarifies absolutely nothing.

This just strikes me as patently false.

How did you determine whether a given model was an Ultramarines or Iron Hands model in 5th edition?

Why does the rule from 2 codex editions ago matter?

Peregrine wrote:You didn't, because the rule in question did not exist in 5th edition.

Ultramarines and Iron Hands detachments did not exist in 5th edition?

Let's use common sense here.

You don't determine what chapter a model is from because it has the "chapter tactics" special rule. You determine what chapter a model is from by looking at the roster and seeing what chapter name is scribbled on the detachment.

E.g.:

Space Marines: Iron Hands Combined Arms Detatchment: 1850 points.

If it's in that detachment, it's an iron hands model.

 Traditio wrote:

Peregrine wrote:You didn't, because the rule in question did not exist in 5th edition.

Ultramarines and Iron Hands detachments did not exist in 5th edition?

Let's use common sense here.

You don't determine what chapter a model is from because it has the "chapter tactics" special rule. You determine what chapter a model is from by looking at the roster and seeing what chapter name is scribbled on the detachment.

E.g.:

Space Marines: Iron Hands Combined Arms Detatchment: 1850 points.

If it's in that detachment, it's an iron hands model.

There was no in game rule effect for having a specific chapter at all in 5ed. It was only in modeling and fluff alone

CrownAxe wrote:There was no in game rule effect for having a specific chapter at all in 5ed. It was only in modeling and fluff alone

So what? That doesn't change the fact that there were ultramarine detatchments, ultramarine special characters, etc. "Chapter Tactics: Ultramarines" just didn't exist yet.

I don't see this as problematic.

If a rhino is in an iron hands detachment, it's an iron hands rhino, whether or not it has the chapter tactics special rule.

Whether we're talking about 4th edition, 5th edition, 6th edition or 7th edition.

What's the issue?

You're mixing things up, Traditio. For a particular Detachment of Space Marines, the Faction of the Detachment is simply 'Space Marines', not 'Space Marines: < Insert Chapter Here >'

 Traditio wrote:
So what? That doesn't change the fact that there were ultramarine detatchments, ultramarine special characters, etc.

No there weren't. There was some fluff about the Ultramarines, but it was just that: fluff. Rules-wise they were just Codex: Space Marines regardless of how you painted them or what fluff you used. The idea of which chapter a C:SM model is from having any rules effect is something new that did not exist in 5th edition.

 IllumiNini wrote:
You're mixing things up, Traditio. For a particular Detachment of Space Marines, the Faction of the Detachment is simply 'Space Marines', not 'Space Marines: < Insert Chapter Here >'

"When choosing a space marines detachment, whether primary or allied, choose one of the chapters listed in this section. Mark the chapter you choose for each detachment on your roster sheet. All models benefit from the appropriate chapter tactics for their detachment's chapter, providing they have the Chapter Tactics special rule. Certain units and special characters have specific chapter tactics and can only be taken in detachments of the specified chapter.

You must let your opponent know what chapter each detachment is from and what abilities it has as a result. In most cases, this will be obvious from the color scheme and heraldry of your army, but with over a thousand chapters to choose from, you can never be too careful" (Codex: Space Marines, 6th edition, p. 77).

"The Chapter Tactics special rule represents a group of rules that are specific to a given chapter. When choosing an army, you must make a note of which chapter each unit with the chapter tactics special rule is drawn from. All models in the same detachment or formation must be drawn from the same chapter. If a unit's datasheet contains a chapter in brackets after the chapter tactics special rule - for example, 'chapter tactics (ultramarines) - the unit must always be drawn from this chapter, and therefore cannot be included in a detachment or formation with any units that are drawn from other chapters" (Codex: Space Marines, 7th edition, p. 189).

The confusion arises from thinking that Codex: Space Marines is a codex for a single army. It's not.

 Traditio wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:
You're mixing things up, Traditio. For a particular Detachment of Space Marines, the Faction of the Detachment is simply 'Space Marines', not 'Space Marines: < Insert Chapter Here >'

"When choosing a space marines detachment, whether primary or allied, choose one of the chapters listed in this section. Mark the chapter you choose for each detachment on your roster sheet. All models benefit from the appropriate chapter tactics for their detachment's chapter, providing they have the Chapter Tactics special rule. Certain units and special characters have specific chapter tactics and can only be taken in detachments of the specified chapter.

You must let your opponent know what chapter each detachment is from and what abilities it has as a result. In most cases, this will be obvious from the color scheme and heraldry of your army, but with over a thousand chapters to choose from, you can never be too careful" (Codex: Space Marines, 6th edition, p. 77).

"The Chapter Tactics special rule represents a group of rules that are specific to a given chapter. When choosing an army, you must make a note of which chapter each unit with the chapter tactics special rule is drawn from. All models in the same detachment or formation must be drawn from the same chapter. If a unit's datasheet contains a chapter in brackets after the chapter tactics special rule - for example, 'chapter tactics (ultramarines) - the unit must always be drawn from this chapter, and therefore cannot be included in a detachment or formation with any units that are drawn from other chapters" (Codex: Space Marines, 7th edition, p. 189).

The confusion arises from thinking that Codex: Space Marines is a codex for a single army. It's not.

We're talking about how you don't pick a chapter in 5ed Tradito. Why are you point out rules quotes from 6ed when Chapter Tactics mattered

 CrownAxe wrote:
We're talking about how you don't pick a chapter in 5ed Tradito. Why are you point out rules quotes from 6ed when Chapter Tactics mattered

My point:

The rules clearly indicate (contra Illum., who insisted that I was making things up) that you don't just have a detachment: Space Marines. No. You have a detachment: Space Marines (Iron Hands).

Once you scribble "Iron Hands" on your army roster, you then start selecting models, who may or may not have the chapter tactics special rule, but all of whom are iron hands models.

It's not that complicated.

 Traditio wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
We're talking about how you don't pick a chapter in 5ed Tradito. Why are you point out rules quotes from 6ed when Chapter Tactics mattered

My point:

The rules clearly indicate (contra Illum., who insisted that I was making things up) that you don't just have a detachment: Space Marines. No. You have a detachment: Space Marines (Iron Hands).

Once you scribble "Iron Hands" on your army roster, you then start selecting models, who may or may not have the chapter tactics special rule, but all of whom are iron hands models.

It's not that complicated.

We don't care that they're iron hands models, we are talking about the rules. I could be using cheetos for my models, you would me trying to claim that they are cheetos for the rules

CrownAxe wrote:We don't care that they're iron hands models, we are talking about the rules. I could be using cheetos for my models, you would me trying to claim that they are cheetos for the rules

If you scribbled "Cheetos" on your force roster, then you are playing a Cheetos detachment.

I'll assume that you'll be using white scars chapter tactics for your cheddar flavored snack pieces.

@Traditio: What I read the quote from page 189 of the 7th Ed. codex as is that if a detachment contains units with the Chapter Tactics Special Rule, then they all must share the same Chapter Tactics.

You also seem to be mixing up the idea of the Chapter (and thus which chapter Tactics they use) and the actual faction the detachment has. The Faction is Space Marines, and the Chapter Tactics are Iron Hands.

You think I'm wrong? Take a look at the BRB: The only Space Marine Chapters that are listed as a separate Faction are those that have their own codex (e.g. Blood Angels).

Also, why are you quoting 6th Edition rules to us in an argument which pertains to 7th Edition and has absolutely nothing to do with 6th Edition?

 IllumiNini wrote:
@Traditio: What I read the quote from page 189 of the 7th Ed. codex as is that if a detachment contains units with the Chapter Tactics Special Rule, then they all must share the same Chapter Tactics.

Including the models that don't have chapter tactics.

Because they're in a detachment of that chapter.

You also seem to be mixing up the idea of the Chapter (and thus which chapter Tactics they use) and the actual faction the detachment has. The Faction is Space Marines, and the Chapter Tactics are Iron Hands.

You think I'm wrong? Take a look at the BRB: The only Space Marine Chapters that are listed as a separate Faction are those that have their own codex (e.g. Blood Angels).

Also, why are you quoting 6th Edition rules to us in an argument which pertains to 7th Edition and has absolutely nothing to do with 6th Edition?

It establishes RAI.

The clear RAI is that Iron Hands, for all rules intents and purposes, are a different army from Ultramarines. That's why you can't have Ultramarines in an Iron Hands detachment, and why a Crimson Fist can't deploy in a White Scars drop pod.

 Traditio wrote:

You don't determine what chapter a model is from because it has the "chapter tactics" special rule.

Uh... yes, you do.

The codex specifically tells us this, in fact. Specifically: "The rules will often refer to a model, character or unit by its chapter; in all cases, this refers to a model, character or unit with the Chapter Tactics special rule."

That's where the whole argument over the Iron Hands vehicle thing came from in the first place.

You can write whatever name you want on your roster, but ruleswise the thing that determines what Chapter a Marine unit belongs to is Chapter Tactics. Any unit that does not have Chapter Tactics does not, and can not, belong to any specific Chapter so far as the current rules are concerned.

But we're not talking about RAI, we're talking about RAW, and with RAW, The Chapter Tactics are not technically part of the Faction.

 insaniak wrote:
Uh... yes, you do.

The codex specifically tells us this, in fact. Specifically: "The rules will often refer to a model, character or unit by its chapter; in all cases, this refers to a model, character or unit with the Chapter Tactics special rule."

That's where the whole argument over the Iron Hands vehicle thing came from in the first place.

You can write whatever name you want on your roster, but ruleswise the thing that determines what Chapter a Marine unit belongs to is Chapter Tactics. Any unit that does not have Chapter Tactics does not, and can not, belong to any specific Chapter so far as the current rules are concerned.

"All models in the same detachment or formation must be drawn from the same chapter" (Codex: Space Marines, 7th edition, p. 189).

I guess that means no non-dreadnought vehicles in any space marine detachment, huh?

If you have even a single rhino or drop pod in your space marines army list(s), you ultimately agree with my interpretation of the rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 IllumiNini wrote:
But we're not talking about RAI, we're talking about RAW, and with RAW, The Chapter Tactics are not technically part of the Faction.

RAW, you can't have vindicators, predators or landraiders in a black templar detachment.

You're going to stop running them, I assume?

 Traditio wrote:
"All models in the same detachment or formation must be drawn from the same chapter" (Codex: Space Marines, 7th edition, p. 189).

I guess that means no non-dreadnought vehicles in any space marine detachment, huh?

If you have even a single rhino or drop pod in your space marines army list(s), you ultimately agree with my interpretation of the rules.

No, you're just taking that quote out of context. You're ignoring the previous sentence which is clearly talking about models with the chapter tactics rule. The obvious interpretation of the quote is "all of these models in the same detachment ... ", which would allow models without the chapter tactics rule as they were not included in the group of models being discussed.

 Traditio wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:
But we're not talking about RAI, we're talking about RAW, and with RAW, The Chapter Tactics are not technically part of the Faction.

RAW, you can't have vindicators, predators or landraiders in a black templar detachment.

You're going to stop running them, I assume?

No, I will keep running them. Why? Note the following from the Page 189 of the 7th Ed. C:SM:

When choosing an army, you must make a note of which Chapter each unit with the Chapter Tactics special rule is drawn from. All models in the same Detachment or Formation must be drawn from the same Chapter.

So with regards to all models in a Detachment or Formation being required to be drawn from the same Chapter, it's referring specifically to the units which have the Chapter Tactics Special Rule.

IllumiNini wrote:No, I will keep running them.

Therefore you agree with me.

So with regards to all models in a Detachment or Formation being required to be drawn from the same Chapter, it's referring specifically to the units which have the Chapter Tactics Special Rule.

No, it isn't. It says "all models." It doesn't say "all models with the chapter tactics special rules." If a model ain't a black templars model, you can't run it in a black templar detachment. Therefore, either your landraiders are black templar models even though they don't have the chapter tactics special rule, or else, you can't run them in a black templar detachment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
"All models in the same detachment or formation must be drawn from the same chapter" (Codex: Space Marines, 7th edition, p. 189).

I guess that means no non-dreadnought vehicles in any space marine detachment, huh?

If you have even a single rhino or drop pod in your space marines army list(s), you ultimately agree with my interpretation of the rules.

No, you're just taking that quote out of context. You're ignoring the previous sentence which is clearly talking about models with the chapter tactics rule. The obvious interpretation of the quote is "all of these models in the same detachment ... ", which would allow models without the chapter tactics rule as they were not included in the group of models being discussed.

The previous sentence only deals with units with the chapter tactics special rule. The sentence I quoted says "models."

 Traditio wrote:

IllumiNini wrote:No, I will keep running them.

Therefore you agree with me.

If I agreed with you, I wouldn't be arguing with you on this point. Also, don't put words in my mouth. I do not agree with you.

 Traditio wrote:

So with regards to all models in a Detachment or Formation being required to be drawn from the same Chapter, it's referring specifically to the units which have the Chapter Tactics Special Rule.

No, it isn't. It says "all models." It doesn't say "all models with the chapter tactics special rules." If a model ain't a black templars model, you can't run it in a black templar detachment. Therefore, either your landraiders are black templar models even though they don't have the chapter tactics special rule, or else, you can't run them in a black templar detachment.

This statement implies that you're blatantly ignoring the context of the statement. Consider the following generic example where I say the following two sentences:

I attended a concert yesterday and asked people who attended what they thought.

Everybody thought the concert was fantastic.

From the context, it's easy to recognise that the word 'Everybody' in the second sentence refers to the people I asked instead of literally everybody in the world.

It's the same death with this Chapter Tactics and Detachments business. When it says 'all models', it is referring only to those models with the Chapter Tactics Special Rule (which comes from the context of the sentence).

 Traditio wrote:

"All models in the same detachment or formation must be drawn from the same chapter" (Codex: Space Marines, 7th edition, p. 189).

I guess that means no non-dreadnought vehicles in any space marine detachment, huh?

If you have even a single rhino or drop pod in your space marines army list(s), you ultimately agree with my interpretation of the rules.

You're retreading an argument that was hashed out quite comprehensively when the codex was released.

Yes, as the rules currently stand it is arguably illegal to include any vehicle without Chapter Tactics in a Space Marine detachment. Although as you've seen, there is some disagreement on interpretation of the rule you just quoted, with some people reading it as only requiring those models who have Chapter Tactics to be from the same Chapter... an interpretation that would seem to be backed up by several responses on the FAQ about vehicles in detachments.


So either vehicles are illegal in Space Marine detachments, or any model without Chapter Tactics is legal in Space Marine detachments... but either way, any model that doesn't have Chapter Tactics does not (ruleswise) belong to any specific Chapter.