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Saying playing without magic wasn't an option is flat out wrong. Source: Was a dwarf player.

I don't mean to be rude, but you must have been a bad player then.

Dwarfs were one of the best armies out there.

So, sorry but you are flat out wrong.

I was a dwarf player too
And and magic lost a me a lot of games, because here anti-magic stuff was banned because it would make magic to weak (general opinion was that the expensive high risk magic should be worth it, which is not possible if dwarfs block them out).

Of course the spells did add their part, but the major problem was that random number of spell dice each turn with a hard cap of 12.
So if you wanted to use magic, taking the maximum possible was the only option to make sure to get each turn enough dice to cast something.

While in 7th most players just took one single wizard to have an better option for banning spell, in 8th if you were not a dwarf you took at least 3 (one lvl 4 and 2 lvl 2) and I have never met an army on a tournament that carried less.

If you take the system ofg 8th to 40k, stuff like deny the witch and iron will need to stay and get better, otherwise you will see an increase of psykers in each army and those that have easy access to those units will get an major advantage.

PS:
and dwarfs were not a good army in 8th.
they were nice to get a save draw in tournaments and sometimes you were lucky and met an inexperienced player who tries to attack. But they missed the options to catch units and most people just hide theri stuff, tried to get a enough points for a small victory with long rang shooting and magic and game was either a 11:9 or 9:11.

PPS: Things were different back in 7th, there I ran an aggressive melee army successfully on tournaments, but 8th with stronger magic and effective shooting made it hard for slow elite armys without big monsters

Well, magic lost everyone games from time to time. And it's unfortunate that you were put in that position because Dwarfs relied on their anti-magic to balance out their lack of it. Thats a very stupid ruling IMO. But it seems to me that your experiences then must have been very skewed from what the real game should have been like based on the fact that you weren't allowed to use a large portion of your army.

Of course the spells did add their part, but the major problem was that random number of spell dice each turn with a hard cap of 12.
So if you wanted to use magic, taking the maximum possible was the only option to make sure to get each turn enough dice to cast something.

While in 7th most players just took one single wizard to have an better option for banning spell, in 8th if you were not a dwarf you took at least 3 (one lvl 4 and 2 lvl 2) and I have never met an army on a tournament that carried less.

Sorry, I don't understand this part of your post. You could attain 12 dice no matter how many wizards you had. Taking more wizards did not net you more power dice unless you channeled. And even then there was a hard cap on 12. The only thing it did was allow you to take more spells and even then, you couldn't have duplicate spells except for the signature spell. I never saw more than 2 wizards on average in 8th for this reason. So i'm not sure if you guys were house ruling this like you did with the "no anti magic" thing.


Deny the Witch and Iron Will etc. would definitely need to stay and be adjusted accordingly.

Dwarfs at tournaments often tied because of the nature of their army, true. But in an average pick up game they were a force to be reckoned with.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

Sorry, I don't understand this part of your post. You could attain 12 dice no matter how many wizards you had. Taking more wizards did not net you more power dice unless you channeled. And even then there was a hard cap on 12. The only thing it did was allow you to take more spells and even then, you couldn't have duplicate spells except for the signature spell. I never saw more than 2 wizards on average in 8th for this reason. So i'm not sure if you guys were house ruling this like you did with the "no anti magic" thing.

Most people on tournaments here took more wizards to make sure that they get every turn the maximum number of dice including channeling (adding more cheap wizards and other sources to make sure to get some dice with channelling)

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Well, magic lost everyone games from time to time. And it's unfortunate that you were put in that position because Dwarfs relied on their anti-magic to balance out their lack of it. Thats a very stupid ruling IMO. But it seems to me that your experiences then must have been very skewed from what the real game should have been like based on the fact that you weren't allowed to use a large portion of your army.

Of course the spells did add their part, but the major problem was that random number of spell dice each turn with a hard cap of 12.
So if you wanted to use magic, taking the maximum possible was the only option to make sure to get each turn enough dice to cast something.

While in 7th most players just took one single wizard to have an better option for banning spell, in 8th if you were not a dwarf you took at least 3 (one lvl 4 and 2 lvl 2) and I have never met an army on a tournament that carried less.

Sorry, I don't understand this part of your post. You could attain 12 dice no matter how many wizards you had. Taking more wizards did not net you more power dice unless you channeled. And even then there was a hard cap on 12. The only thing it did was allow you to take more spells and even then, you couldn't have duplicate spells except for the signature spell. I never saw more than 2 wizards on average in 8th for this reason. So i'm not sure if you guys were house ruling this like you did with the "no anti magic" thing.


Deny the Witch and Iron Will etc. would definitely need to stay and be adjusted accordingly.

Dwarfs at tournaments often tied because of the nature of their army, true. But in an average pick up game they were a force to be reckoned with.

It's like this, using 40k as an example because I'm not sure on the fantasy rules. If in 40K, the Warp Charge was D6+total mastery levels of all psykers, to a hard cap of 12, then taking a single ML2 Psyker would net between 3 and 8 WC. Taking 3 ML2 Psykers would net you 6+D6, so between 7 and 12. However, taking a Librarius Conclave of 4 ML2 Psykers and a Tiguirius LVL3, for a total of 11, would net you 11+D6 so would always be 12. On top of that, more psykers = more spells. Fantasy is the same, max out the powerful Wizards to get 10-12 Charge guarenteed plus higher number of spells to choose from.

That brings me back to basic idea I posted on the first page.
It is similar to 8th magic up to a point but not random

each psyker gets 2 power dice per mastery level, each one can only use his own dice

each basic spell needs a 4+ to cast and advanced spells a 5+. each psyker can use up to 4 dice per spell and needs only one success to cast it

the opponent can use his psyker (if they are in the target unit or in 12") to deny the spell and need equal or more successful rolls

eg: a spell is cast with 4 dice and rolls 2 times 4+, so to counter it you need 2 or more 4+.

a psyker can also use his dice to counter an exiting spell instead of casting one.

the player has the choice if he wants cast more spells with a higher risk to fail or if he wants to cast one spell with low risk, or if he wants to end a buff or debuff on a nearby unit.

It's like this, using 40k as an example because I'm not sure on the fantasy rules. If in 40K, the Warp Charge was D6+total mastery levels of all psykers, to a hard cap of 12, then taking a single ML2 Psyker would net between 3 and 8 WC. Taking 3 ML2 Psykers would net you 6+D6, so between 7 and 12. However, taking a Librarius Conclave of 4 ML2 Psykers and a Tiguirius LVL3, for a total of 11, would net you 11+D6 so would always be 12. On top of that, more psykers = more spells. Fantasy is the same, max out the powerful Wizards to get 10-12 Charge guarenteed plus higher number of spells to choose from.

I think there may be some miscommunication on my part here.

In fantasy you only got 2d6 worth of power dice, and the defender got the higher of the two to dispel with. Thats it. Wizards did not supply you with more power dice unless they had a magic item or channeled an extra die on a 6+. Adding more Wizards only gave you access to more spells, not dice and you got a bonus to cast equal to your wizard level. So higher level wizards were able to cast spells more efficiently than lower ones. So at a certain point, it didn't make sense to take more wizards because you would run out of power dice before you had the chance to cast all the spells you had access to. That was why I was confused when Kodos said that he never saw less than 3 wizards in a tournament. Because to me, thats a huge waist of points, you only needed max 2 casters unless you were planning something specific like the "light council" or Beastman Herdstone.

I'm proposing the same thing for 40K. You get 2d6 power dice. Thats it. Taking more Psykers will not increase this cap, it just gives you access to more powers. Psychic powers now become higher to cast. For example Hammer hand would cast on an 8+ possibly. Then you take as many dice as you want to cast the spell with and add the Psyker's Mastery level to the roll. If you beat the number that the power casts on, then you get the spell off. The defender can dispel with as many dice as he wants and tries to beat your number. He also adds Psyker Mastery levels as well as things like adamantium will etc.

The cap on 12 dice could be increased as the game level gets higher. For example for games up to 2K you only use 2d6 with a cap of 12 dice. But for 3K games you could up that to 3d6 with a cap on 18 dice etc.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

It's like this, using 40k as an example because I'm not sure on the fantasy rules. If in 40K, the Warp Charge was D6+total mastery levels of all psykers, to a hard cap of 12, then taking a single ML2 Psyker would net between 3 and 8 WC. Taking 3 ML2 Psykers would net you 6+D6, so between 7 and 12. However, taking a Librarius Conclave of 4 ML2 Psykers and a Tiguirius LVL3, for a total of 11, would net you 11+D6 so would always be 12. On top of that, more psykers = more spells. Fantasy is the same, max out the powerful Wizards to get 10-12 Charge guarenteed plus higher number of spells to choose from.

I think there may be some miscommunication on my part here.

In fantasy you only got 2d6 worth of power dice, and the defender got the higher of the two to dispel with. Thats it. Wizards did not supply you with more power dice unless they had a magic item or channeled an extra die on a 6+. Adding more Wizards only gave you access to more spells, not dice and you got a bonus to cast equal to your wizard level. So higher level wizards were able to cast spells more efficiently than lower ones. So at a certain point, it didn't make sense to take more wizards because you would run out of power dice before you had the chance to cast all the spells you had access to. That was why I was confused when Kodos said that he never saw less than 3 wizards in a tournament. Because to me, thats a huge waist of points, you only needed max 2 casters unless you were planning something specific like the "light council" or Beastman Herdstone.

I'm proposing the same thing for 40K. You get 2d6 power dice. Thats it. Taking more Psykers will not increase this cap, it just gives you access to more powers. Psychic powers now become higher to cast. For example Hammer hand would cast on an 8+ possibly. Then you take as many dice as you want to cast the spell with and add the Psyker's Mastery level to the roll. If you beat the number that the power casts on, then you get the spell off. The defender can dispel with as many dice as he wants and tries to beat your number. He also adds Psyker Mastery levels as well as things like adamantium will etc.

The cap on 12 dice could be increased as the game level gets higher. For example for games up to 2K you only use 2d6 with a cap of 12 dice. But for 3K games you could up that to 3d6 with a cap on 18 dice etc.

I have to say I don't like this. There should be rewards for taking a lot of psykers. The problem is that psychic powers are too strong in themselves. For example, Grey Knights really a lot on their psychic might and having the collective power to resist Daemons, who generate much mystical power being Daemons. A single Codicier Librarian in a SM strike force shouldn't have the same psychic clout as a 6 squads of Grey Knights who are all equal to that Codicier in ML, or a Eldar force with 4 Warlocks and a Farseer, or a Tzeentch force including Ahriman and Fateweaver.

On the other hand there needs to be a ready system that makes dispelling powers much easier without relying on your opponent rolling a 6, or at the very least, means that failure to dispel isn't a death sentence. Some of the superpowered psychic powers like Invisibility make this a no go, which is why these powers need to be balanced and restructured so Invisibility is simply Shrouded, and other similar balancing. Restructuring the whole psychic system (again!) isn't going to do anything except either screw over psychic or non-psychic armies, which is why each army needs some psychic ability that isn't game breaking, can take psykers for psychic defence, or for those armies without proper psykers, such as Orks, Necrons and Dark Eldar, give them suitable anti-psyker gear like Dwarves apparently used to have.

There should be rewards for taking a lot of psykers.

Well, there are rewards, just not as much as it is currently.

I definitely agree with you that there needs to be more to psychic defence than simply praying for 6's. It's a strange balance in 40K because some armies dominate the psychic phase so completely, and yet others have no access to it at all. It's very much all or nothing which I dislike.

This is one of the main reasons I prefer the 8th edition style Psychic phase, I think it reduces that inequality somewhat.

Either way, my suggestion was simply for implimentation into the current 40K game. As it stands I would like to see the 40K rules set change completely, specifically the implementation of an "I go, you go" system like bolt action. If that were the case then I don't think my suggestion of the 8th edition style psychic phase would work.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

There should be rewards for taking a lot of psykers.

Well, there are rewards, just not as much as it is currently.

I definitely agree with you that there needs to be more to psychic defence than simply praying for 6's. It's a strange balance in 40K because some armies dominate the psychic phase so completely, and yet others have no access to it at all. It's very much all or nothing which I dislike.

This is one of the main reasons I prefer the 8th edition style Psychic phase, I think it reduces that inequality somewhat.

Either way, my suggestion was simply for implimentation into the current 40K game. As it stands I would like to see the 40K rules set change completely, specifically the implementation of an "I go, you go" system like bolt action. If that were the case then I don't think my suggestion of the 8th edition style psychic phase would work.

At the same time, while I agree that that style balances, its a bland, forced balancing by giving enemies equal dice. Its like playing chess at that point. 5th Edition had some cool anti-psyker defence such as Shadow in the Warp, which made psykers roll on 3D6 and discard the lowest, or the Necron glowing prism thing.

I think this could be solved by giving each race a decent psychic defence. Those with psykers can get psychic defence in the form of more Warp Charge while those without or with less potent psykers need more.

First off, change DTW to a 4+, or at least a 5+, having to get 3 6 on 3 dice because your opponent rolled his 3+3 dice and got 123456, is frankly bull.

Space Marines of all flavours; Take Libbies, with psychic hoods allowing them to DtW for units within 12". Chaplains grant Adamantium Will bubble, especially good for DA. BT get their Adamantium Will built in, so maybe make it stackable?
Grey Knights: Have their own psychic defence in form of The Aegis and lots of psykers and Libbies.

Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers; designed to be a single army really, they can get small amounts of psykers but they are not really a force designed to "counter" anything, rather just have more tanks and troopers.

Mechanicum are vulnerable but having access to the armies of the Imperium gives them options, but an anti-psychic boost to a few key units wouldn't be bad.

Knights don't really have to worry about psychic powers.

Inquisition are again more of an ally force but have psykers.

All the above have access to the Culexus Assassin as well.




Eldar should have enough psykers to help block things.

DEldar need a unique mechanic. For example, how about for each failed Harnass, DE get +1 to use at any point of the game. Call it a "Psychic Capture Jar" or something. They trap the uncontrolled energy in a capsule and open it as a counter to incoming psychic attacks.

Orks could have their "gestalt field" come into play and give them +1 to Deny for each unit within 12" of the target.

Necrons could have wargear options like a Gloom Prism. 1 model per squad, only on important squads, that squad now denies on a 3+.

Daemons have plenty of psykers with Tzeentch, Nurgle and Slaanesh less so. Khorne should have serious anti-magic gear. Like; "Skull of the Trickster; the skull of an ancient magician who tried to put a curse on Khorne's favourite blood hound. For each failed warp charge, the casting psyker must roll on perils chart."


Tyranids SitW; Any model within Synapse Range of a unit with this rule generates 1 less Warp Charge than usual, per Synapse Unit, to a minimum of 1. So within Range of 2, -2WC.
Or
Psykers within Synapse Range of at least 1 creature with this rule suffer -1 to Harnass attempts. A 6 is always a success however a Psyker rolling 2 or more 6s will still Perils.

I've been out of the loop for a while, so I've no idea where we are now in this thread.

I know my ideas don't seem to have caught on though so I'll bow out.