8th edition like AoS?

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**docdoom77**

adamsouza wrote:
Any move that simultaneously dumbs the game down and invalidates EVERY codex in the same move is spitting in the eye of every existing player.

AOS is not Warhammer Fantasy Battles. It's a completely new game, that happens to have downloadable rules for your old Warhammer Fantasy models.

I didn't mind it when they did that for second edition. Or when they did it again for 3rd. Sometimes you have to start with a clean slate. I'd say going from 3rd to 7th with no full reboots is a pretty good run.

**Brutus_Apex**

Why is AOS so bad for you with points?

The rules aren't condensed into a single book, I'm not a fan of warscrolls, but it's not a deal breaker for me
Circular bases
Lack of charge/fire arcs
smaller skirmish style game ( I liked fantasy for it's huge armies)
measuring from the model, not the base
random turn generation (great, I win or loose based on a single die roll)
no initiative
strange movement and range profiles
firing into combat
no charge reactions
no psychology
no breaking from combat
no tailoring your own characters
no cool magic items
no more schools of magic
basically a simple leadership test for casting magic (I hate how mindless this is)
simplified statlines (although I think this could work for 40K)
no flanking or rear charges
no unit formations (like horde)
characters don't join units (wtf?)

There are probably more things...

Things I do like about AOS.

Better terrain usage
Monsters get worse as you wound them
I think there was something else, but I can't remember off hand.

**pm713**

Circular bases.... really?

**jonolikespie**

Free rules and simplifying the game would be good for 40k.

AoSing 40k would be a terrible (maybe even fatal depending on where you are) blow to 40k.

AoS had a couple of good ideas in it, but they were overshadowed by the absurdly stupid ideas and the terrible implementation. Free rules are great, GW needs to get with the times in that regard, it's just where the industry is moving. Rules about players beard lengths was universally hated by the community and GW seems to have learnt that lesson, I doubt they would try and add them to Age of Emperor or whatever. Lack of points as a way to play isn't a terrible idea on it's own, some people seem to enjoy it.. but you don't need to write rules for that people can just do it, and again the community outcry has clearly been heard and is now being addressed (whether or not that helps is yet to be seen, but I imagine it will). AoS tried to trim down the core rules, and that's great 40k needs that, except that they removed all the USRs and gave each unit their special rules in the unit entry. That actually bloats the game as you then have to type out the entire block of text about rerolls instead of two words.

Aaaaaand then there is the fluff... Honestly I think that is the only thing keeping the game going in a lot of areas. AoS had practically no fluff when it hit, a lot of people didn't even know if their armies still existed, let alone how much they had changed. This is a point I worry GW hasn't learned their lesson on, they wanted to shake up the fluff and make everything copywrite friendly, and if we see an Age of Emperor or some such I think the same will happen there.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
Circular bases.... really?

Technically you don't need to rebase all your old models, but it makes people feel like they need to and any new models you buy for old armies or in progress armies now won't match your other models.

**Davor**

Brutus_Apex wrote:
I'm up in arms because AOS is a terrible game, points or not. And I don't want to see 40K go the same way. It used to be that 40K was for people who wanted to push models around, while Fantasy was for people who liked a more serious game. Now because of the sad state of affairs over at GW headquarters we have two mindlessly simple games that about as fun as watching paint dry.

All they've done is taken the rules bloat from the codex's and added them onto war scrolls. I mean, how many different types of shields does there need to be?

Up in arms over toy soldiers? I was like that over 10 years ago. Quite embarrassing actually. Thing is, 40K is a terrible game as well, so I am not sure what your point is. If it's opinion, ok then, but don't spew it out as fact, because 40K is not any better in fact it's worse. As for 40K was for people who wanted to push models around, I am sure a lot of people will agree with you, but also a lot of people also take 40K very seriously maybe even more so than Fantasy. So again opinion, not fact.

No matter what is happening at GW, we are all still here, so we might as well enjoy paint drying then, otherwise we should leave especially if we get so upset.

So opinions aside because nobody is wrong when it comes to opinions, after all you are correct, just as well as I am as correct.

Ok so you don't want free data scrolls? You like to buy the codices? Well would you like to know you will still be able to do that. Age of Sigmar never stopped it. If anything the prices have come down considerably. Maybe you don't want to save money. Ok,
You WANT to look of flip through 2-5 books to find a rule? Maybe you like to buy 2 or more books of one faction? Ok, good for you. You don't have to do that no more in AoS, but wait, you can still buy many books if you so like to.
You like rules bloat? What ever floats your boat I guess.
You don't want a challenging game but an easier game? Ok, that is your prerogative.

Got it. I fully understand you know.

**pm713**

There isn't a technically about it. The game has no base requirement so if you decide to change them that's on you.

**jonolikespie**

pm713 wrote:
There isn't a technically about it. The game has no base requirement so if you decide to change them that's on you.

Still doesn't help if you have 2/3rds of an army on squares and the new models all come with circles.

**pm713**

jonolikespie wrote:
pm713 wrote:
There isn't a technically about it. The game has no base requirement so if you decide to change them that's on you.
Still doesn't help if you have 2/3rds of an army on squares and the new models all come with circles.

Because that's a world ending issue...

**adamsouza**

docdoom77 wrote:
adamsouza wrote:
Any move that simultaneously dumbs the game down and invalidates EVERY codex in the same move is spitting in the eye of every existing player.

AOS is not Warhammer Fantasy Battles. It's a completely new game, that happens to have downloadable rules for your old Warhammer Fantasy models.

I didn't mind it when they did that for second edition. Or when they did it again for 3rd. Sometimes you have to start with a clean slate. I'd say going from 3rd to 7th with no full reboots is a pretty good run.

RT was fun, but it was like an RPG with miniatures that all about combat, 2nd edition turned it into an organized tabletop game.
3rd edition neutered 2nd edition, and I fracking loathed it for stripping out all the shiny bitz, but it stream lined game play, and became the foundation for 4th through 7th.

RT had very few books, and all the second edition codexes were new stuff. I was glad to buy them.
3rd Edition was all the same codexes over again with the Pychic powers and Personalities gutted, I loathed buying them again.

6th and 7th edition have WAY more codexes, that are substantially WAY more expensive, than the previous editions. A complete reboot now invalidates over $1000 worth of rules books.

RT: Rulebook + E're we go ( I don't recall, maybe $60 for both)
2nd Edition: Ultramarines, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Orks, Eldar, Tyranids, Chaos, Imperial Guard, Sisters of Batle ? (under $30 each, maybe $300 for all of them)

**Davor**

This is only if you replied if you are "up in arms". If you are really not and used it as a figure of speech, then I can fully understand what you said. But to be up in arms over this but the same things are in 40K just mind boggles me. So I am replying to you as if you were in Up in Arms over Age of Sigmar.

Brutus_Apex wrote:
Why is AOS so bad for you with points?

The rules aren't condensed into a single book, I'm not a fan of warscrolls, but it's not a deal breaker for me

A lot of people love this new feature. I think it's great. Just print out what you only need instead of logging a lot of books. Personal opinion, so you are not wrong.

Circular bases
Lack of charge/fire arcs
smaller skirmish style game ( I liked fantasy for it's huge armies)

It is in 40K, so what is the big deal? Also you can still use square bases if you so choose too. Can never understand when GW says you what base you prefer and people still make an issue out of it. Or you mean other people having round bases? Also a lot of people wanted to play Fantasy but didn't like how "you had to play big or huge battles". So maybe you can say your Opinion on how Fantasy HAD to be played, killed it because new people were not buying.

Also you can play AoS as big as you want. So again, don't see what the big deal is.

measuring from the model, not the base

Fully understandable but no reason to seem to go on a tantrum over it. After all you said you were up in arms.

random turn generation (great, I win or loose based on a single die roll)

In 40K as well. Again what is the big deal? If your beloved 40K has it, I can't see why you would be up in arms for AoS because of it.

no initiative

Not sure what you are talking about.

strange movement and range profiles

Not sure what you mean. Didn't Fantasy have movement stats? So what is the problem?

firing into combat

Ok personal preference. Heaven forbid you ask your opponent if you can take that out of the game. But ok, but that is just like 40K where you have to talk to you opponent before you play anyways. Hmmm maybe you just don't want your Fantasy to be like your beloved 40K.

no charge reactions
no psychology
no breaking from combat
no tailoring your own characters
no cool magic items
no more schools of magic
basically a simple leadership test for casting magic (I hate how mindless this is)
simplified statlines (although I think this could work for 40K)
no flanking or rear charges

Ok I get it, it's not Fantasy.

no unit formations (like horde)

Nobody is stopping you from doing so. You can do it now.

characters don't join units (wtf?)

Never played Fantasy so not sure how big a deal this is.

Again, no reason to be up in arms over plastic to soldiers. You are like me how I was 10 or 15 years ago. Not good for your health at all. I would learn to loosen up a bit. It's one thing to be upset, but to be up in arms? Not worth it my friend.

**pm713**

No initiative probably means that you don't have cc attacks in initiative order like 40k.

AOS turn generation is worse because you redo it every game turn. In 40k if you go first it stays that way. In AOS not so much.

**Davor**

pm713 wrote:
No initiative probably means that you don't have cc attacks in initiative order like 40k.

AOS turn generation is worse because you redo it every game turn. In 40k if you go first it stays that way. In AOS not so much.

Thanks for the explanation. Now I understand. I hate the Someone always goes first all the time. That is why I like AoS so much better. Just wish AoS was more like LotR/The Hobbit rules instead of more like 40K. But that is personal opinion. Disappointing yes but no reason to get so upset. What is next, taking your army outside and burning them?

**pm713**

Davor wrote:
pm713 wrote:
No initiative probably means that you don't have cc attacks in initiative order like 40k.

AOS turn generation is worse because you redo it every game turn. In 40k if you go first it stays that way. In AOS not so much.

Thanks for the explanation. Now I understand. I hate the Someone always goes first all the time. That is why I like AoS so much better. Just wish AoS was more like LotR/The Hobbit rules instead of more like 40K. But that is personal opinion. Disappointing yes but no reason to get so upset. What is next, taking your army outside and burning them?

I wish AOS was consistent with who went first.

**Brutus_Apex**

This is only if you replied if you are "up in arms". If you are really not and used it as a figure of speech, then I can fully understand what you said. But to be up in arms over this but the same things are in 40K just mind boggles me. So I am replying to you as if you were in Up in Arms over Age of Sigmar.

Brutus_Apex wrote:
Why is AOS so bad for you with points?

The rules aren't condensed into a single book, I'm not a fan of warscrolls, but it's not a deal breaker for me

A lot of people love this new feature. I think it's great. Just print out what you only need instead of logging a lot of books. Personal opinion, so you are not wrong.

Circular bases
Lack of charge/fire arcs
smaller skirmish style game ( I liked fantasy for it's huge armies)

It is in 40K, so what is the big deal? Also you can still use square bases if you so choose too. Can never understand when GW says you what base you prefer and people still make an issue out of it. Or you mean other people having round bases? Also a lot of people wanted to play Fantasy but didn't like how "you had to play big or huge battles". So maybe you can say your Opinion on how Fantasy HAD to be played, killed it because new people were not buying.

Also you can play AoS as big as you want. So again, don't see what the big deal is.

measuring from the model, not the base

Fully understandable but no reason to seem to go on a tantrum over it. After all you said you were up in arms.

random turn generation (great, I win or loose based on a single die roll)

In 40K as well. Again what is the big deal? If your beloved 40K has it, I can't see why you would be up in arms for AoS because of it.

no initiative

Not sure what you are talking about.

strange movement and range profiles

Not sure what you mean. Didn't Fantasy have movement stats? So what is the problem?

firing into combat

Ok personal preference. Heaven forbid you ask your opponent if you can take that out of the game. But ok, but that is just like 40K where you have to talk to you opponent before you play anyways. Hmmm maybe you just don't want your Fantasy to be like your beloved 40K.

no charge reactions
no psychology
no breaking from combat
no tailoring your own characters
no cool magic items
no more schools of magic
basically a simple leadership test for casting magic (I hate how mindless this is)
simplified statlines (although I think this could work for 40K)
no flanking or rear charges

Ok I get it, it's not Fantasy.

no unit formations (like horde)

Nobody is stopping you from doing so. You can do it now.

characters don't join units (wtf?)

Never played Fantasy so not sure how big a deal this is.

Again, no reason to be up in arms over plastic to soldiers. You are like me how I was 10 or 15 years ago. Not good for your health at all. I would learn to loosen up a bit. It's one thing to be upset, but to be up in arms? Not worth it my friend

Ok, you want to have a conversation. Thats fine, but I am not "throwing a tantrum" so don't be condescending. I have a passion for things that I enjoy(ed), and the fact that you seem to not care is probably one of the reasons you're able to enjoy a gakky game like AOS. You think I'm angry at AOS? I am. I would have just ignored the game, but I can't because the destroyed Fantasy and replaced it with something I dislike. I have 12 armies for Fantasy, some are over 10000 points. So after spending several thousands of dollars, hundreds of hours painting and several years of my life enjoying the game, I think I have a right to be upset at them tossing it out the window.

Most of the things you are responding to about why I dislike AOS are 40K related. I understand 40K has circular bases and no firing arcs etc. But that wasn't the question I was responding to. 40K is a different animal, and deserves separate attention. And no, 40K currently is not a good game, and nowhere did I ever call it "beloved".

Also, I understand that the reasons why I enjoyed fantasy were the reasons why it was canned. It was too much to get into, units were too large and the initial investment was too big for the average gamer. I get that, so in that regard I understand why AOS was created. But it didn't have to be what it turned out to be, and it certainly didn't have to replace fantasy.

I shouldn't have to "arrange" special permissions for a game to function properly. It should work well right out of the box. Which AOS doesn't, the FAQ for it is longer than the rules themselves.

Horde formation does not exist in AOS.

Circular bases.... really?

Yes, really. Circular bases don't have firing arcs, thats why I don't like circular bases. Thats my point. You'd have to paint them on like they have in Warmachine if they were to implement firing arcs.

Ok so you don't want free data scrolls? You like to buy the codices? Well would you like to know you will still be able to do that. Age of Sigmar never stopped it. If anything the prices have come down considerably. Maybe you don't want to save money. Ok,
You WANT to look of flip through 2-5 books to find a rule? Maybe you like to buy 2 or more books of one faction? Ok, good for you. You don't have to do that no more in AoS, but wait, you can still buy many books if you so like to.
You like rules bloat? What ever floats your boat I guess.
You don't want a challenging game but an easier game? Ok, that is your prerogative.

Free isn't my point. You said they reduced rules bloat because of warscrolls. I am saying, they absolutely did not. It's worse now because all the special rules and equipment are scattered all around a bunch of different scrolls. Nobody has standardized wargear anymore. There's about a hundred different types of shields that do different things now. Why? Why can't a shield just be a shield and be a single entry in the main rulebook. They just took all of the stuff and put it on a card, it's way harder to keep track of than unit entry in a book.

Also, when did I say I didn't want a challenging game? I've been saying the exact opposite. On top of the fact that AOS is basically the simplest game you can get.

**jonolikespie**

pm713 wrote:
jonolikespie wrote:
pm713 wrote:
There isn't a technically about it. The game has no base requirement so if you decide to change them that's on you.
Still doesn't help if you have 2/3rds of an army on squares and the new models all come with circles.

Because that's a world ending issue...

No, it's not, but it is enough of an issue that it has stopped people continuing buying.

As a modeler I'd never accept such mismatched bases in my army, nor would I ever break a painted model off it's base.

**Maréchal des Logis Walter**

I think that the real point currently disturbing brutus is that AoS simply replaced warhammer battle. And thats whats gonna happen to 40k if it went an AoS'd way. I do agree these are two different games, so why just delete one of them? Honestly, i wouldn't care about this if they were certain not to invalid they real 40k, but in so far as i'm not wishing to play an oversimplified game and play hide and seek on the internet i truly lo'g for a total rebuilding of the rules to try make the game as fun as it used to be. Delete everything, recreate basic logical rules then read again the ancient edition books to figure out what were the characterful, even and entairnting systems you should get inspiration from...

And as far as pdf' warlord games sells pdf or rulebook army books less costy, like 14 euros. So it does prove to be possible centralizing datas and making it all the most reasonnable in the same time. Is really depends on being willing to.

Sorry for spelling mistakes, it's way hader tipping on an electronic pad.

**Real News**

I can't begin to understand all of this complaining about bases. When I started playing 40K in the mid 90s, all of the larger models (dreadnoughts, large creatures like the Avatar, etc.) came with square bases. Honestly I find them less awkward and easier to play with than the current oval ones. If the base is visible or noticeable at all, you haven't flocked it properly.

**Davor**

Brutus_Apex wrote:
Ok, you want to have a conversation. Thats fine, but I am not "throwing a tantrum" so don't be condescending.

That is good to know you are not "throwing a tantrum". You said you were "up in arms" so I took it that way. To be fair, what I said ONLY APPLIED if you are "up in arms" which you really are not. If you still think I was condescending, I apologize my friend. I love to have a great conversation with you.

I have a passion for things that I enjoy(ed), and the fact that you seem to not care is probably one of the reasons you're able to enjoy a gakky game like AOS.

We all have passions for GW games, other wise none of us would really be here.

As for AoS being crap? It's not fact but opinion. I think 40K is a crappy game. Again not fact just opinion. Neither of us are correct here. Neither of us are wrong as well. Some people love eating fish eggs, and bugs, others hate it. Doesn't mean they are wrong, just like we are not wrong in how we think about these games we are passionate about.

You think I'm angry at AOS?

I fully understand, You don't have to explain why.

Most of the things you are responding to about why I dislike AOS are 40K related. I understand 40K has circular bases and no firing arcs etc. But that wasn't the question I was responding to. 40K is a different animal, and deserves separate attention.

1+1=2. The way I took it, complaining about why AoS is a crap game for you should be the same reasons why 40K should have been a bad game and you shouldn't be playing it. I just found it hypocritical what applied to one should have applied to the other.

And no, 40K currently is not a good game, and nowhere did I ever call it "beloved".

Fair enough, I have erred.

Also, I understand that the reasons why I enjoyed fantasy were the reasons why it was canned. It was too much to get into, units were too large and the initial investment was too big for the average gamer. I get that, so in that regard I understand why AOS was created. But it didn't have to be what it turned out to be, and it certainly didn't have to replace fantasy.

I agree.

I shouldn't have to "arrange" special permissions for a game to function properly.

I know this, but you know what. We are grown men. We come to play. Play. If little kids can discuss amongst themselves how to have fun, you would think grown up adults can do the same. After all we are not jocks playing in a league and having to "abide" by the rules to have fun. I guess I just see this differently than most people.

It should work well right out of the box. Which AOS doesn't, the FAQ for it is longer than the rules themselves.

I agree, but as I said, if you want to have fun and play with plastic toy soldiers we should do what we want to have the most fun when playing. Again, I think differently than most people here.

Horde formation does not exist in AOS.

Yes it does. You can set up your formation in any way you want. People just choose NOT to. Thing is you get no benefits for doing so, but who is stopping you from forming your units into rank and file? Again, I guess I am seeing it differently. You say you can't, I say you can. I guess I think you mean, you get no special rules or extra rules for putting units in formations. You didn't say that, so I can't assume that is what you mean.

Circular bases.... really?

Yes, really. Circular bases don't have firing arcs, thats why I don't like circular bases. Thats my point. You'd have to paint them on like they have in Warmachine if they were to implement firing arcs.

Such a minor point I think to make a mountain out of a mole hill. Again personal preference and I can fully understand.

Ok so you don't want free data scrolls? You like to buy the codices? Well would you like to know you will still be able to do that. Age of Sigmar never stopped it. If anything the prices have come down considerably. Maybe you don't want to save money. Ok,
You WANT to look of flip through 2-5 books to find a rule? Maybe you like to buy 2 or more books of one faction? Ok, good for you. You don't have to do that no more in AoS, but wait, you can still buy many books if you so like to.
You like rules bloat? What ever floats your boat I guess.
You don't want a challenging game but an easier game? Ok, that is your prerogative.

Free isn't my point. You said they reduced rules bloat because of warscrolls. I am saying, they absolutely did not. It's worse now because all the special rules and equipment are scattered all around a bunch of different scrolls. Nobody has standardized wargear anymore. There's about a hundred different types of shields that do different things now. Why? Why can't a shield just be a shield and be a single entry in the main rulebook. They just took all of the stuff and put it on a card, it's way harder to keep track of than unit entry in a book.

Fair enough. Nice to see another opinion. Great rebuttal.

Also, when did I say I didn't want a challenging game? I've been saying the exact opposite. On top of the fact that AOS is basically the simplest game you can get.

I erred again. Sorry, I can get overwhelmed easily and get mistaken who said what. Sorry about that.

You made some great points.

**jreilly89**

Like every time this comes this around, no, 40k will not get AoS. AoS is already undoing that by adding points and force organizations back in. Come on guys.

**kodos**

"Like AoS" is also a very generic term.

Will 40k get it's Background redone like AoS
Will there be a no point/force org game type like AoS
Will there be simple to hit/wound resolution like AoS
Will the USR be skipped and units/formations get all their own unique special rules like AoS

etc

PS:
no
40k had it first
yes
40k had it first

**tneva82**

pm713 wrote:
Why is AOS so bad for you with points?

Because lack of points is LEAST of AOS's problems. Without even factoring in non-rule issues like fluff that literally makes combats irrelevant(since it's 100% impossible for either side to archieve final victory. No suspense, no excitement, no emotional ties to the battles. One side loses they just come back. You can defeat your enemy neither in numbers nor territory since both are infinite).

**pm713**

tneva82 wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Why is AOS so bad for you with points?

Because lack of points is LEAST of AOS's problems. Without even factoring in non-rule issues like fluff that literally makes combats irrelevant(since it's 100% impossible for either side to archieve final victory. No suspense, no excitement, no emotional ties to the battles. One side loses they just come back. You can defeat your enemy neither in numbers nor territory since both are infinite).

It's really not. Things don't matter in 40k either and points was one of the biggest issues.

**jreilly89**

tneva82 wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Why is AOS so bad for you with points?

Because lack of points is LEAST of AOS's problems. Without even factoring in non-rule issues like fluff that literally makes combats irrelevant(since it's 100% impossible for either side to archieve final victory. No suspense, no excitement, no emotional ties to the battles. One side loses they just come back. You can defeat your enemy neither in numbers nor territory since both are infinite).

How is that any different from 40k? Barring small planet engagements, the universe has been at a stand still for several editions.

**Brutus_Apex**

@Davor.

I'm glad we could reach some common ground on this matter even if we have differing opinions.

Also, I just remembered an additional thing I like about AOS. The fact that they use more scenarios.

**tneva82**

jreilly89 wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Why is AOS so bad for you with points?

Because lack of points is LEAST of AOS's problems. Without even factoring in non-rule issues like fluff that literally makes combats irrelevant(since it's 100% impossible for either side to archieve final victory. No suspense, no excitement, no emotional ties to the battles. One side loses they just come back. You can defeat your enemy neither in numbers nor territory since both are infinite).

How is that any different from 40k? Barring small planet engagements, the universe has been at a stand still for several editions.

a) that was non-rule issue. It has plenty of issues within rules. Note WITHOUT EVEN part. Rule issues are too many to bother to start listing. That would make ridiculously long post
b) official fluff is stand still but you know what? Games are SETTING on which YOU YOURSELF then make story how it goes. You don't need to have official company advancing story. That isn't interesting. YOU YOURSELF can advance the story in your own games. But when the setting has been set up so that it's 100% impossible for either side to archieve win it makes games boring. There's no story to be made. No excitement. No "got to fight my best against the darkness!"

In 40k there's potential in the story for imperium to fall. That gives your story incentive for fights. In AOS why the armies even bother to fight? They could just roll dice who wins this game and then move elsewhere. Fighting simply wastes sweat for nothing.

**pm713**

tneva82 wrote:
jreilly89 wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Why is AOS so bad for you with points?

Because lack of points is LEAST of AOS's problems. Without even factoring in non-rule issues like fluff that literally makes combats irrelevant(since it's 100% impossible for either side to archieve final victory. No suspense, no excitement, no emotional ties to the battles. One side loses they just come back. You can defeat your enemy neither in numbers nor territory since both are infinite).

How is that any different from 40k? Barring small planet engagements, the universe has been at a stand still for several editions.

a) that was non-rule issue. It has plenty of issues within rules. Note WITHOUT EVEN part. Rule issues are too many to bother to start listing. That would make ridiculously long post
b) official fluff is stand still but you know what? Games are SETTING on which YOU YOURSELF then make story how it goes. You don't need to have official company advancing story. That isn't interesting. YOU YOURSELF can advance the story in your own games. But when the setting has been set up so that it's 100% impossible for either side to archieve win it makes games boring. There's no story to be made. No excitement. No "got to fight my best against the darkness!"

In 40k there's potential in the story for imperium to fall. That gives your story incentive for fights. In AOS why the armies even bother to fight? They could just roll dice who wins this game and then move elsewhere. Fighting simply wastes sweat for nothing.

In AoS there's the potential for Chaos to be pushed back. There is the same potential and incentive for fights in AoS as 40k.

**JohnHwangDD**

Pretending that 40k is like AoS *today*?
* 4 pages of core rules,
* 1 page per formation,
* 1 page per unit (points, but no stats)
NO lookups, tables, USRs, sub-references

I wouldn't be upset at all.

Of course, AoS has a problem with every unit being a snowflake, but at least the unit-unit interactions are straightforward on a scroll v scroll basis.