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Here in the UK, we cleared up the grey areas a few years back, so everybody knows exactly what the law is if you find your home under attack, invaded or burgled...

You're allowed to use any means necessary to defend your home, property and loved ones, but as soon as the attackers or intruders flee the scene, you couldn't pursue them for miles and dish out your own brand of justice...

Very clear cut.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
You're allowed to use any means necessary to defend your home, property and loved ones, but as soon as the attackers or intruders flee the scene, you couldn't pursue them for miles and dish out your own brand of justice...

This is also the case in the US. You are only allowed to use force in self defense when an immediate threat exists. If the investigation finds that you shot someone in the back in "self defense" you're going to prison for a long time.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
You're allowed to use any means necessary to defend your home, property and loved ones, but as soon as the attackers or intruders flee the scene, you couldn't pursue them for miles and dish out your own brand of justice...

This is also the case in the US. You are only allowed to use force in self defense when an immediate threat exists. If the investigation finds that you shot someone in the back in "self defense" you're going to prison for a long time.

I'm glad that both our respective nations have finally cleared this up - there were a few high profile cases in the UK that threw doubt on the whole concept, and when you have different judges offering different interpretation, it was a bit of a mess, but thankfully, that's behind us now...

If I awake at 3am and discover intruders in my house, I can start swinging that baseball bat and let my lawyer sort it out in a court of law, and there's a very strong chance that judge and jury will be on my side..

As the old saying goes, it's better to be judged by 13 than carried by 6...

 Peregrine wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
You're allowed to use any means necessary to defend your home, property and loved ones, but as soon as the attackers or intruders flee the scene, you couldn't pursue them for miles and dish out your own brand of justice...

This is also the case in the US. You are only allowed to use force in self defense when an immediate threat exists. If the investigation finds that you shot someone in the back in "self defense" you're going to prison for a long time.

Er...thats the general rule. Different jurisdictions have different rules. In Texas we can eat your liver with some fava beans and a nice chianti for multiple reasons-theft of property if the BG looks to be escaping, theft of vehicles (at night), multiple things at night actually. Its been greatly expanded to to stop the commission of crimes here. Morally thats a different bag of course.

I have no problem with women putting a bullet in abusive partners that force their way in, armed or not. Unfortunately, most seem to take the abuse and go back.

Thieves generally try to break in when nobody is there and, generally, avoid carrying anything more serious than a screwdriver or other prying tool to avoid more serious charges. They want stuff to sell, not conflict.

Many of the most violent breakins are when drug dealers or gambling locations get robbed. Those often get bloody.

The law in both the UK and the USA is pretty clear cut when it comes to home invasion, but the grey area, as this case shows, is what happens if you witness a crime in progress a few yards from your property? Say, across the street, and your life is not under threat...

Can you intervene? Can you shoot? Or point your gun at them and threaten to shoot if they don't stop?

For example, say one guy is trying to stab another guy to death, and you're there or you witness it...

The sensible thing to do is always phone 999 or 911, but by the time the police turn up, it could be too late...

I suppose you can make a good case for it if you believe that life is threatened, but it's still a very grey area...

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
The law in both the UK and the USA is pretty clear cut when it comes to home invasion, but the grey area, as this case shows, is what happens if you witness a crime in progress a few yards from your property? Say, across the street, and your life is not under threat...

Can you intervene? Can you shoot? Or point your gun at them and threaten to shoot if they don't stop?

For example, say one guy is trying to stab another guy to death, and you're there or you witness it...

The sensible thing to do is always phone 999 or 911, but by the time the police turn up, it could be too late...

I suppose you can make a good case for it if you believe that life is threatened, but it's still a very grey area...

It's not so much that it's grey, it just varies by the venue.

In Iowa, if I agreed to watch my neighbors home and saw someone on the property having just burglarized it and running away with a VCR in their hands, and I shot them to death, I'd go to jail for murder. In Texas, however, you can use lethal force to defend property, even your neighbor's property if you have an agreement to watch it.

"One guy trying to stab another guy to death" is still subject to variance by venue, but overwhelmingly, the laws are phrased along the lines of lethal force being authorized to reasonably prevent death or serious bodily injury to yourself or someone else.

 Ouze wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
The law in both the UK and the USA is pretty clear cut when it comes to home invasion, but the grey area, as this case shows, is what happens if you witness a crime in progress a few yards from your property? Say, across the street, and your life is not under threat...

Can you intervene? Can you shoot? Or point your gun at them and threaten to shoot if they don't stop?

For example, say one guy is trying to stab another guy to death, and you're there or you witness it...

The sensible thing to do is always phone 999 or 911, but by the time the police turn up, it could be too late...

I suppose you can make a good case for it if you believe that life is threatened, but it's still a very grey area...

It's not so much that it's grey, it just varies by the venue.

In Iowa, if I agreed to watch my neighbors home and saw someone on the property having just burglarized it and running away with a VCR in their hands, and I shot them to death, I'd go to jail for murder. In Texas, however, you can use lethal force to defend property, even your neighbor's property if you have an agreement to watch it.

"One guy trying to stab another guy to death" is still subject to variance by venue, but overwhelmingly, the laws are phrased along the lines of lethal force being authorized to reasonably prevent death or serious bodily injury to yourself or someone else.

You'd rightly be tried for murder in Iowa, because your story lacks credibility. I mean, who the hell still has a VCR?

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Here in the UK, we cleared up the grey areas a few years back, so everybody knows exactly what the law is if you find your home under attack, invaded or burgled...

You're allowed to use any means necessary to defend your home, property and loved ones, but as soon as the attackers or intruders flee the scene, you couldn't pursue them for miles and dish out your own brand of justice...

Very clear cut.

If I understand correctly however, you are not allowed to keep an item specifically for that purpose, e.g. if the police are over and see a baseball bat by the bed and you say it's for self defense that becomes a no-no "offensive weapon" correct?

Come on. How does a UK cop even know what a baseball bat is?

"Sir, that is a rolling pin I use to get wrinkles out of the carpeting".

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Here in the UK, we cleared up the grey areas a few years back, so everybody knows exactly what the law is if you find your home under attack, invaded or burgled...

You're allowed to use any means necessary to defend your home, property and loved ones, but as soon as the attackers or intruders flee the scene, you couldn't pursue them for miles and dish out your own brand of justice...

Very clear cut.

If I understand correctly however, you are not allowed to keep an item specifically for that purpose, e.g. if the police are over and see a baseball bat by the bed and you say it's for self defense that becomes a no-no "offensive weapon" correct?

Yes. If used then there will be questioned asked. That also comes into play if you pick up something along your journey through your home. Umbrella by the door is probably okay, as is a golf club. Should you veer off to the garage to deliberately seek out your 5 iron then it becomes sticky for you.

Intent is the key.

Generally, if I swing an object at another person, I intend to beat the crap out of them.

 CptJake wrote:
Generally, if I swing an object at another person, I intend to beat the crap out of them.

Pillow fights in CptJake's house rarely leave many survivors.

 BigWaaagh wrote:
You'd rightly be tried for murder in Iowa, because your story lacks credibility. I mean, who the hell still has a VCR?

I have no idea why "VCR" was the first consumer electronic that came to mind, in retrospect. I haven't owned a VCR myself since 1997 or so.

Maybe because I just read an article about the very last VCR manufacturer closing doors. Still I freely admit that was a very odd choice.

I am sad to say that I own two VCR's. As do my parents and my brother. I still have some old movies that never got sold on DVD, and in addition, there is one HUGE advantage VCR's have over something like Tevo or other digital recording services: You can call and ask someone to record something, and then bring it back to your home to watch it.

 Ouze wrote:

 BigWaaagh wrote:
You'd rightly be tried for murder in Iowa, because your story lacks credibility. I mean, who the hell still has a VCR?

I have no idea why "VCR" was the first consumer electronic that came to mind, in retrospect. I haven't owned a VCR myself since 1997 or so.

Maybe because I just read an article about the very last VCR manufacturer closing doors. Still I freely admit that was a very odd choice.

Are hipster burglars a thing? Because I can see some guy with a man bun watching his movies on a VCR because it's more "authentic".

 Ouze wrote:

 BigWaaagh wrote:
You'd rightly be tried for murder in Iowa, because your story lacks credibility. I mean, who the hell still has a VCR?

I have no idea why "VCR" was the first consumer electronic that came to mind, in retrospect. I haven't owned a VCR myself since 1997 or so.

Is that because somebody stole it and you weren't able to shoot them as they legged it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 feeder wrote:


Are hipster burglars a thing? Because I can see some guy with a man bun watching his movies on a VCR because it's more "authentic".

The lines running up the screen give it a warmer picture.