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50 ppm seems cheap for TH/SS FNP W2.

Orock wrote:Wulfen with the right "curse" can make thunderwolf Calvary capable of a 42 inch turn one charge. That alone is enough reason to hate them. But there is so much more.

KingCorpus wrote:

 Orock wrote:
Wulfen with the right "curse" can make thunderwolf Calvary capable of a 42 inch turn one charge. That alone is enough reason to hate them. But there is so much more.

How did you get to 42, did you some calculation that involded the re-roll to charges or something? Just out of curiousity

Lukash_ wrote:It's a super-theoretical situation. Have a Dark Angels detachment with Sammael (gives his unit +3 to moves and run moves), a unit of Thundercav, and a Wulfen Murderpack.

Sammael joins the Thundercav; they move 15", then roll the 7 on the Hunt table, meaning they can move another 15", then charge up to 12".

A more realistic threat range is 36" but eh.

If you have to go to Superfriends your list was broken before the Wulfen got there.

For the sake of honesty
Murderpack with a lucky roll of six which becomes a seven affecting the Deathpack + Deathpack Wolf Lord on any mount.
Alpha Hunters - Affected Units can immediately take a free move as if it were the Movement phase.
12' move + 12' move + For Glory, for RUSS!!! 6' re-rollable run + 12' re-rollable Charge.

Same thing applies to other units though. A Hammer/Shield Terminator is two points less than a Wulfen but is way worse when they should be fairly even.

I don't care how strong a unit is. I do care how stupid and ugly a unit is. Does that count?

 Elbows wrote:
I don't care how strong a unit is. I do care how stupid and ugly a unit is. Does that count?

Kinda, but I personally adore the models.

I also own a pug.

Maybe I'm ugly irl too. My poor girlfriend. :(

 Elbows wrote:
I don't care how strong a unit is. I do care how stupid and ugly a unit is. Does that count?

Not from an Eldar player it doesn't. Even as a part-time one you lose credibility.

 KingCorpus wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
I don't care how strong a unit is. I do care how stupid and ugly a unit is. Does that count?

Kinda, but I personally adore the models.

Same. The funkyness of 40k has been what I liked about it ever since Rogue Trader.

Space Wolves have a very out there feel like that movie "Heavy Metal". I mean...its vikings in space riding giant wolves, with half werewolf dudes, and Odin riding a hover chariot. feth yeah.

Why would anyone like the same boring futuristic sci-fi #291271652?

And I agree Terminators and Wulfen should be similar power levels, BUT that should be accomplished by making Terminators as good as wulfen, not making wulfen worthless like terminators.

To me wanting to do C+C nids, Wolfen rules seem flying rodent gak. Id love to run and chage.

Also holy gak, boundy lope and bounding leap.. really? REALLY? baaaah

RandomNoob wrote:
To me wanting to do C+C nids, Wolfen rules seem flying rodent gak. Id love to run and chage.

Also holy gak, boundy lope and bounding leap.. really? REALLY? baaaah

Isn't Bounding Leap re-roll both run & charge?

Martel732 wrote:
50 ppm seems cheap for TH/SS FNP W2.

Dont forget run and charge, other bonuses and the ability to DIE and still attack at full power...

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

RandomNoob wrote:
To me wanting to do C+C nids, Wolfen rules seem flying rodent gak. Id love to run and chage.

Also holy gak, boundy lope and bounding leap.. really? REALLY? baaaah

Isn't Bounding Leap re-roll both run & charge?

This and the ability to make units move twice. Remove this stupid ass ability and that stupid ass result on the "curse" table and they'll be fine

Change up the curse table so it's slightly less op, such as just granting say +1 init, +1 Str, +1 WS, or combination of them. Then make it that wulfen aren't scoring units or denial units, and units affected by the curse lose objective secured if they have it. Change death frenzy so they don't get it against Instant Death wounds, as the idea is you can't really fight back with your last breath if you've been reduced to paste by a thunderhammer.

Personally I don't find them too broken when part of an army as there are counters to it in a force, however in isolation against a similar role unit at the same price they are extremely good.

 KingCorpus wrote:
If someone is running that, that's just disgusting.

Ravening shenanigans

That's how people are running them. As strong as possible.

I voted no, but I think that depends a lot on how you look at them.

Compared to other foot slogging melee, yes. It's easy to argue that they are the best foot melee unit in the entire game, and everyone should be near their levels. This is what I expect from a foot melee unit, although they might be a bit too tough to shoot down (get rid of SS spam or something).

Compared to other commonly taken melee choices, I think they are on par. Wraiths and TWC compare well to Wulfen, and you don't see wolves leaving the TWC at home to spam wulfen, so they are probably alright.

Compared to other OP choices, I find them a bit below par. Shooting is just too good for wulfen to compete.

Overall, I think they are fine. It's nice to have a foot slogging melee choice not be a trap for once, and I wish that GW would look at these guys for Chaos and Orks when they get new books. This should be considered the gold standard of melee units. Strong, Fast, Tough, but still able to be countered by certain units and weak to dedicated shooting (if the SS are removed). I'd love to see Nobs and Possessed on a similar level.

I don't think they are breaking the meta in any real way.

 KingCorpus wrote:
If someone is running that, that's just disgusting.

Ravening shenanigans

That's not the Ravenwing's fault though.

 Bulldogging wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
They are where elite melee specialists need to be to merit table time in the "melt your face off" ranged meta of the current edition. The game would be in a better place if more elite melee units were as good.

Agreed.

Also, if Wulfen are too strong, then Eldar and Tau shooting is "too insane".

Are you serious...? That is EXACTLY the general consensus across the meta; wtf?

 HANZERtank wrote:
Change up the curse table so it's slightly less op, such as just granting say +1 init, +1 Str, +1 WS, or combination of them. Then make it that wulfen aren't scoring units or denial units, and units affected by the curse lose objective secured if they have it. Change death frenzy so they don't get it against Instant Death wounds, as the idea is you can't really fight back with your last breath if you've been reduced to paste by a thunderhammer.

Personally I don't find them too broken when part of an army as there are counters to it in a force, however in isolation against a similar role unit at the same price they are extremely good.

If you do that, they're just hairy termies at that point. That table isn't broken. Imo. Anything with randomness to me isn't broken

If people combine calvary with white scar Conclave, or ravening stuff and its not for a tournie, I'd suggest finding another gaming group. Cause that's jacked up lol.

(The below info isn't in regards to the person I quoted)

If you want to cc with wulfen boy you better be packing, 'curse of course the wulfen ' isn't a curse. Obviously not, it's to sell more models cause it sounds cool.

Anyway, Crusaders with priests and inquisitors could go toe to toe if they can re roll 3++ invul all day. Saying termies should smack em down isnt a good thing to say, no one wants to be as garbage as a termie.

Martel732 wrote:
50 ppm seems cheap for TH/SS FNP W2.

No, that's actually balanced. The other melee units are overcosted.

Heldericht wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
50 ppm seems cheap for TH/SS FNP W2.

No, that's actually balanced. The other melee units are overcosted.

OR it is both.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Heldericht wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
50 ppm seems cheap for TH/SS FNP W2.

No, that's actually balanced. The other melee units are overcosted.

OR it is both.

Both seems more likely.

As someone who plays a melee army that doesn't get Wulfen, they're everything I wish my melee units were. They've got the holy trinity of speedy, durable, and choppy. Compared to most other melee units in the game they're probably broken or OP, but as has been said they're on a level required for melee units to be viable in today's meta.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
As someone who plays a melee army that doesn't get Wulfen, they're everything I wish my melee units were. They've got the holy trinity of speedy, durable, and choppy. Compared to most other melee units in the game they're probably broken or OP, but as has been said they're on a level required for melee units to be viable in today's meta.

I wouldn't label them as fast. Sure, faster than normal infantry, but keep in mind that they are fully affected by difficult and impassable terrain unlike all other viable melee units (TWC, wraiths, beasts, bike star,....). Also their durability is only mediocre. They have to rely heavily on the SS or attached ICs for tanking. A typhoon speeder with MM could potentially kill 3 non-shield Wulfen without much hassle in single shooting phase as he could ignore the invulnerables by positioning, the armor through AP and the 2 wounds and FNP through S8 instakills.

So they are slower and not as tough as as TWC. Their damage output is way higher though. But TWC already eat anything not deathstar/GMC/knight alive.

The Curse is nice, but far from broken. If you want a 7+, you need to invest at around 500 points in Wulfen, that's nearly a third of the army, so there are not that many units left that could be affected. You also need to roll a 6 to get it or invest even more points. And outside of turn 1, a 7+ is probably not very relevant as your TWC can already charge in turn 2 without help. Other units than TWC don't benefit most of the time as they have to be a) footslogging and b) near the Wulfen. Sky and Swift Claws don't benefit at all from 2/3rds of the Hunt results as they already have those rules.

I would consider them on par with TWC with certain situations favoring the one or the other. But compared to the underpowered melee specialists of other Codexes, they sure seem to be OP.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
As someone who plays a melee army that doesn't get Wulfen, they're everything I wish my melee units were. They've got the holy trinity of speedy, durable, and choppy. Compared to most other melee units in the game they're probably broken or OP, but as has been said they're on a level required for melee units to be viable in today's meta.

They don't have move through cover, and only move 6 inches, terrain slows them down. They can run of course, but (most)everyone can. The only increased speed they possess beyond the average assault unit is to extend their effective charge range by 3.5 inches average by run/charge(1 min 6 max) and reroll failed charge.

Jump infanty(marines etc)-12 inches(not slowed by terrain), Bikes(including demons)-12 inches(mostly not slowed), TWC and demon calvary-12 inches(and not slowed by terrain), Flesh hounds-12 inches(not slowed), Harlequins-6 inches(not slowed by terrain) and run/charge with fleet, Sicaran Infiltrators and Ruststalkers-9 inches move and 15 inches charge. Oh and the same for Skitarri Dragoons.

That's just off the top of my head.

They are actually quite slow, but they are built like brick gaks(with shields) and can weather the storm as they march, or they can be podded etc. But then again podded shield Wulfen are 285 points and take 2 detachment slots. They better be usable at that level.

That is unless you have Tau in your area, or in a semi-competitive shooting area period.. Stormsurges and Riptides eat them due to instant death.

I know you weren't saying they were OP, and I agree that all melee should be viable. Just my ramblings on speed since I recently had this discussion in RL.

EDIT: Oh someone already addressed speed, sorry. My ramblings still stand though.

Just some quick mathhammer.

3 TH/SS wulfen 150 points vs 300 points Wraithknight.

If the Wulfen charge.
18 attacks 9 hits, 7.5 wounds, 5 wounds after FNP

Wraithknight 4 attacks 2 hits, 2 wounds, 0.6 after 3++, we'll say it kills a wulfen.

If the Wraithknight kills a wulfen with stomp, it dies. (6 attacks,3 hits, 3 wounds, 2 after fnp)

If it doesn't kill them with stomp, it dies in the next round, having killed 1.2 wulfen.


If the Wraithknight gets the charge.
it kills 0.8 wulfen ,again rounded to 1.

Wulfen swing back 15 attacks, 7.5 hits, 6.25 wounds, 4 after FNP
Even if the WK manages to kill them both, with stomp or next round at I5, It stilll dies.

And the criminally undercosted WK still requires luck to kill the models worth half it's points.
Now the WK isn't designed for CC, but it's stilll a GMC getting annihilated by half it's cost.

If we look at a IK (~400) which is taken usually for CC,
If it gets the charge off, it still dies in 1 round of CC to 150 points of Wulfen, regardless of how many it kills, or how well it rolls, it dies, just a matter of how many wulfen go with it.

Wulfen are OP in the sense that nothing bar OP crap like 2++ re-rollable, or Invis/ psyker schenanigans can survive it.

No basic un buffed unit, can survive a combat with equal points of kitted out wulfen. Including Wulfen !
Death Frenzy is so stupid it means if 2 squads of Wulfen ever meet, you might as well remove both from the table to save time.

One of the unspoken rules for tactics is "kill it before it kills you" and wulfen just ignore that. This is supposed to be balanced out by low mobility, and a 4+ save.

Realistically though, mobility isn't an issue, as the table is only so big, unless you're chasing eldar jetbikes, you'll reach your target by T3 and kill 1+ unit a turn after. The 4+ isn't helpful because unless you're opponent is packing a tonne of S8 or precision shots, you're never going to use the 4+.

And this is all before alllies, or psychic schenanigans.
Wulfen could have been good, with any few of the things they got, but they have everything and the kitchen sink.

You forgot to give the Wraith Knight his invuln save in the first one(ignoring wulfen getting the charge on a jump gmc lol). Unless this was a shooting WK, but then he won't ever get caught. Also the wulfen have too many attacks, 3+2 each is 15 on the charge.

Realistically though the WK gets the charge and kills them without dying on average. To be specific he will only lose 3-4 wounds on average and that's IF he never does a single wound with stomp.

Second one the wulfen have too many attacks, 3+1 counterattack=12, and still forgot invuln save on the wraithknight.

Not disagreeing that they do well against him, just not that well.

Best thing is to just shoot them, they are about as resilient as a Riptide if they all have shields, but cost more and only hurts things if they can catch them.

Charges like DC, swings twice (so up to 30 attacks from 5 models). That, by itself is enough (arguably too much). And that's without the "curse" table bs. No, they themselves aren't guilty of too much mobility, but they offer up absolutely silly potential for sky claws blood claw bikers and everyone's favorite deathstar (TWC), including T1 charges.

Let's not forget a unit of 5 will reliably kill an IK or CC WK, but that's none of my business. Keep on defending this blatant money grab. I haven't the slightest idea how people can argue they're fine with a straight face. It's like saying D scythe so are fine because they have to get close and the model carrying it only has a 3 up save.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bulldogging wrote:


Best thing is to just shoot them, they are about as resilient as a Riptide if they all have shields, but cost more and only hurts things if they can catch them.

"They're about as resilient as a Riptide "... Seriously? That's not typically used as a defensive argument. Nor should it ever be unless we're talking about a 400 point deathstar.

In an edition where the cheese can grow, and become dumb. I feel no regret fielding my 10 wulfen. I feel nothing but happiness when I run 6 calv with shields and 1 wolf lord armed to the teeth ready to throw down. (I personally never super friends, only pure codex stuff)

That's not to say I'm a scumbag, I don't run this against armies that can't handle it. Ex, Orks, Tyranids, or Guardsmen. UNLESS they ask.

I've ran this against Skyhammer, allied into Wyvern spam. Tiggy w/ centurion stuff. Invis knights (Hit 5/10 hammer hits btw, #420winningbruh) Necron Lychguard squad with 5 res orbs, re-reolling 1s for saves and RP, Grey knights spamming Dreadknights with psylincers and str 10 + force, Eldar bikes, wraithguard w/ D scythes.

Only thing I haven't played is Tau, the one army I swear to destroy. It competes with all of them, and if I win mind you, its with literally 1 -2 models (MODELS, not units) left on the table.

My closest match ever with this list was against Ravenguard Battle company, Bjorn survived, 1 HP, only felclaw left intact, protecting the relic.

The wulfen are pretty strong, but they have only carried 1-2 of my games (more than a dozen games played with them too), and thats when I fought tyranids. Carnifexes rip through calvary surprisingly (to me anyway)

Cheers my friends, I know no fear against Wraithknights, and Stormsurges.

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Charges like DC, swings twice (so up to 30 attacks from 5 models). That, by itself is enough (arguably too much). And that's without the "curse" table bs. No, they themselves aren't guilty of too much mobility, but they offer up absolutely silly potential for sky claws blood claw bikers and everyone's favorite deathstar (TWC), including T1 charges.

Let's not forget a unit of 5 will reliably kill an IK or CC WK, but that's none of my business. Keep on defending this blatant money grab. I haven't the slightest idea how people can argue they're fine with a straight face. It's like saying D scythe so are fine because they have to get close and the model carrying it only has a 3 up save.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bulldogging wrote:


Best thing is to just shoot them, they are about as resilient as a Riptide if they all have shields, but cost more and only hurts things if they can catch them.

"They're about as resilient as a Riptide "... Seriously? That's not typically used as a defensive argument. Nor should it ever be unless we're talking about a 400 point deathstar.

I guess we will see how many big tournaments having Wulfen crushing the finals tables over the year. Maybe I'm wrong and they are meta breaking strong. I haven't had that experience locally though. Then again Riptides don't bother me either, Stormsurges though....they can burn.

If it's a money grab, I hope they money grab for Orks and Tyranids next.

Just because the stinkiest cheese in the room isn't on your table, doesn't mean the person sharing the dish with you won't have their meal spoiled by it.

Wulfen are like Eldar, but in CC. Obnoxiously strong and with perfect options, however they're still a CC unit. I'd sooner face them then a tricked out Wraith army.