Are Wulfen too strong?

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**KingCorpus**

Bulldogging wrote:
Eldarain wrote:
They are where elite melee specialists need to be to merit table time in the "melt your face off" ranged meta of the current edition. The game would be in a better place if more elite melee units were as good.

Agreed.

Also, if Wulfen are too strong, then Eldar and Tau shooting is "too insane".

That's where my mind went too on the subject. Weird enough, guard armies tend not to have too much of an issue against me, Manticore, and battle cannons, with bubble wrapped tanks with a sprinkle of a xenos inquisitor with psycho grenades does the trick

**cosmicsoybean**

Bulldogging wrote:
Eldarain wrote:
They are where elite melee specialists need to be to merit table time in the "melt your face off" ranged meta of the current edition. The game would be in a better place if more elite melee units were as good.

Agreed.

Also, if Wulfen are too strong, then Eldar and Tau shooting is "too insane".

....Who doesn't think that eldar and tau shooting is insane?

**Slayer-Fan123**

Tau shooting is supposed to be somewhat insane as that's their gimmick, but Eldar shooting being just as good or better is frankly insulting.

**Psienesis**

Backspacehacker wrote:
Well of course they are OP, they cost 60 bucks a box

It would be... unfair of me to pity you.

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Battle-Sister-Squad

**Dantes_Baals**

SemperMortis wrote:
Much like most of the SM codex it isn't the statline of the model your paying 30pts for, it is the plethora of rules that accompany that stat line that makes this model so broken.

Special Rules: Acute sense, you get to reroll what table edge you come on from reserve. Not bad, not amazing but not bad.

ATSKNF: Yeah.....amazing

Bounding Lope: Run and assault as well as reroll failed charge rolls....in other words this is Waaaagh! but better........and can happen on 1st turn and doesn't need an expensive character to be alive to use. AMAZING

Counter-Attack: great rule, basically makes them a beast in CC regardless of who charges who.

Curse of the Wulfen: Ok....its called a bloody Curse, why is it a BUFF instead of a nerf? I won't go over both tables, nor will I go over each individually. Go take a peak and tell me how that is a curse?

Death Frenzy: Wow, if you kill any wulfen in CC they get to attack you again, regardless of Initiative step.......

FNP: 5+ FNP, very good.

and finally Rage. +2 attacks on the charge. Or counter charge as well. In other words each Wulfen gets 6 attacks EACH on the 1st turn of CC.

All of that on a model that is 30ppm. My Nobz by comparison are 22ppm (with eavy Armor) and have basically none of those amazing buffs, they also don't have S5, I5, LD8. So in other words your paying 8ppm for all of those amazing special rules that make Wulfen a beast mode unit. I would gladly pay another 8ppm for my nobz to have HALF of those special rules.

So in other words, Yes, Wulfen are broken and a bit OP.

Said everything I was going to and more. For a "cursed" unit it's a pretty transparent money grab that they happen to be one of the best CC units in the game. They can drop Greater Demons, Deathstars and CC Knights that cost at the very least 100+ points more. And this isn't even touching on the buffs that allow sky claws, TWC and bikes a potential turn 1 charge in addition to all that CC silliness... for 30 ppm.

The death frenzy rule is the one of the dumbest, most rage inducing additions to a single unit since eldar bikes got access to heavy weapons for the whole unit. Stupid, stupid, stupid and very potent.

**koooaei**

The amount of special rules they get is disturbing. And comparison to other melee units.

**master of ordinance**

When a unit can delete other units with the ease that Wulfen can, and do it so effectively then yes, they are OP. Especially when you look at the stupidly cheap cost - my Ogryns cost 15 points more and have none of the survivability, mobility, utility or offensive power that the Wulfen have.
We can only be thankful that consolidating into close combat is no longer a thing.

**KingCorpus**

master of ordinance wrote:
When a unit can delete other units with the ease that Wulfen can, and do it so effectively then yes, they are OP. Especially when you look at the stupidly cheap cost - my Ogryns cost 15 points more and have none of the survivability, mobility, utility or offensive power that the Wulfen have.
We can only be thankful that consolidating into close combat is no longer a thing.

Ogyrn aren't good compared to much in this game. No offense.

Also, that's why guard have wonderful strength 8 shooting. You can look at wulfen and be like PFFt. Bye. Auto deleted with battle cannon. Yes there are shields, but theyll instant die which is sexy.

Also that nice little blob with an inquisitor with a psychotroke grenades? Sorry wulfen.

Imo, everything in this game is beatable, just when something new pops up, people tend to get worried and not think around it.

**Dakka Wolf**

KingCorpus wrote:
master of ordinance wrote:
When a unit can delete other units with the ease that Wulfen can, and do it so effectively then yes, they are OP. Especially when you look at the stupidly cheap cost - my Ogryns cost 15 points more and have none of the survivability, mobility, utility or offensive power that the Wulfen have.
We can only be thankful that consolidating into close combat is no longer a thing.

Ogyrn aren't good compared to much in this game. No offense.

Also, that's why guard have wonderful strength 8 shooting. You can look at wulfen and be like PFFt. Bye. Auto deleted with battle cannon. Yes there are shields, but theyll instant die which is sexy.

Also that nice little blob with an inquisitor with a psychotroke grenades? Sorry wulfen.

Imo, everything in this game is beatable, just when something new pops up, people tend to get worried and not think around it.

Shame I can only exalt this post once.

**Lukash_**

Oh no, Wulfen are beatable by any army with decent midrange shooting. The problem that I have is them being better (by a long shot) than every single unit in the game that performs a similar role. Not to mention the fact that they've made assault troops with I4 (like Terminators) even worse than they already are. A single Wulfen with dual claws will vaporize 3 Berzerkers or 2 Terminators on the charge, and the same again if he dies in that same turn.

Oh, plus they make high initiative (5+) assault units worse than they already are as well. Daemon Princes are absolutely terrified of these guys, especially because they pack S10 weapons.

Side note: the Kharn vs Wulfen Pack leader mathhammer (neither charge bonus):

Both go at the same time.

Pack leader swings 5 times, hits 2.5 times, wounds 2.43 times. ) 0.81 bounce off Kharn's 5++.

Kharn swings 5 times, hits on average all five (hitting on rerollable 2s). He wounds the Pack leader 4.167 times, meaning he is most likely dead as FNP saves only 1/3 of those wounds on average.

But wait, there's more! The Pack Leader swings again at I5 wounding him 2.43 times more. By the end of his saves the Blood God's favored one has taken 3.24 wounds...meaning a very dead Kharn.

Things actually only get worse for Kharn if one charges, as he still kills the Pack leader just as hard, but dies even faster.

**Ashiraya**

Wulfen are not broken, they are just way better than just about every comparable unit. Wulfen are simply in a category of units where most are really bad.

**KingCorpus**

The wulfen, first of their name, breaker of a shooting only edition, rightful heir to the 'first turn' charge combo, the slayer of tau, and wraithknights,

HAAAOOO!!!!

**Dakka Wolf**

KingCorpus wrote:
The wulfen, first of their name, breaker of a shooting only edition, rightful heir to the 'first turn' charge combo, the slayer of tau, and wraithknights,

HAAAOOO!!!!

You are officially my new favorite herald and poet.

**koooaei**

KingCorpus wrote:
The wulfen, first of their name, breaker of a shooting only edition, rightful heir to the 'first turn' charge combo, the slayer of tau, and wraithknights,

HAAAOOO!!!!

So, you finally understood that they are broken too.

Basically the whole thread goes like this:
OP: Are wulfen broken?
Others: Yes, they are better than anything else footslogging melee oriented that others have to the point they wreck stuff to death.
OP: Everything's better than nobz and ogryns => wulfen aren't broken. rekt

**Dantes_Baals**

The thread isn't asking if wulfen can be countered. The question is "are they broken?". With all of those buffs and also being the most lethal CC unit in the game, costing less than a single Vanguard Veteran with a storm shield... Abso fething lutely.

**pm713**

I'd say they're broken. Their main weakness is fairly easy to cover, they have stupidly strong weapons, they buff everything near them and can attack twice in so many of their combats. They're also another example of GW throwing fluff out the window for lolz.

The bright side is I can stop complaining about vanguard now.

**Dakka Wolf**

Don't be daft.
Wulfen aren't broken they're just the first Melee unit in recent history to actually deserve the title 'Elite'.

**chalkobob**

They certainly aren't the most broken/undercosted unit, but they do feel slightly over-tuned.

As others have stated, being better than most melee units in their class is not only ok, but necessary in such a shooting oriented edition. Most units in their class are overcosted and are not taken competitively. In other words, their combat ability is not broken.

I suppose the only reason I feel they lean to the undercosted side of things is that they combine competitive close combat potential with such good force multiplying support abilities in the form of their (ironically named) curses.

To me, it's like if crisis suits also got the ethereal invocation of elements ability. I don't feel that crisis suits shooting is broken (at least not outside of the FE). They are effective at what they do, but not broken. Adding a powerful force multiplying ability like invocation of elements would definitely make them undercosted however.

IMHO, wulfen should either be slightly more expensive (points wise) or have either their melee ability or support ability toned down slighlty.

Though, as I said earlier, they certainly aren't close to the most egregious things balance wise.

**Bulldogging**

Lukash_ wrote:
Snip

Well, in fairness, if we are gauging melee units being OP by beating Kharn the list would be very long.

TWC Pack Leader w Hammer/Shield on average kills Kharn without dying himself.

Single Necron Wraith gives him a hard time.

Really any single model, or max 2, from a melee unit with an invuln save and more than 1 wound will either kill him or roadblock him.

Kharn really isn't that hot at fighting melee specific units and is definitely not a bar to measure by.

I think of Wulfen as a sign that GW knows melee needs to be improved, and is a great step by them.

**Lukash_**

Dakka Wolf wrote:
Don't be daft.
Wulfen aren't broken they're just the first Melee unit in recent history to actually deserve the title 'Elite'.

Are Thundercav not recent history?

Bulldogging wrote:
Lukash_ wrote:
Snip

Well, in fairness, if we are gauging melee units being OP by beating Kharn the list would be very long.

TWC Pack Leader w Hammer/Shield on average kills Kharn without dying himself.

Single Necron Wraith gives him a hard time.

Really any single model, or max 2, from a melee unit with an invuln save and more than 1 wound will either kill him or roadblock him.

Kharn really isn't that hot at fighting melee specific units and is definitely not a bar to measure by.

I think of Wulfen as a sign that GW knows melee needs to be improved, and is a great step by them.

True, but the main point was the points difference.

**master of ordinance**

Aye, but those other examples are still no where near as powerful as Wulfen. That first turn charge is really, stupidly, powerful.

**Draco**

Wulfen are very good unit but vs most other melee units they are op

**Kap'n Krump**

I think that 'broken' is probably a strong word, and I'll admit I've never fought them personally, but they seem really, REALLY strong.

Fast, cheap, and hit like a brick gak-house. *relatively* poor saves, unless you shell out for SS/TH, which makes them kind of pricey but hit harder than warbosses (with a better save, FNP, and still half the price).

But if you compare them to, say, ork nobz, which I feel is an absolutely fair and reasonable comparison, they blow nobz away in every possible category, except possibly access to a cheap assault vehicle. I'm pretty sure they're cheaper than nobz to boot.

**jreilly89**

Kap'n Krump wrote:
I think that 'broken' is probably a strong word, and I'll admit I've never fought them personally, but they seem really, REALLY strong.

Fast, cheap, and hit like a brick gak-house. *relatively* poor saves, unless you shell out for SS/TH, which makes them kind of pricey but hit harder than warbosses (with a better save, FNP, and still half the price).

But if you compare them to, say, ork nobz, which I feel is an absolutely fair and reasonable comparison, they blow nobz away in every possible category, except possibly access to a cheap assault vehicle. I'm pretty sure they're cheaper than nobz to boot.

I'd hardly call a 4+ save with 2 wounds and FNP on them for bare bones a poor save. Yeah it's no 2+, but they get FNP, Nobz have to pay for it

**KingCorpus**

To be honest, I think orks are shafted hard. They literally have no invul besides ghaz and he's mediocre in himself.

Idk why they didn't keep the original mob rule, and wtf is cybork body? 6+ FnP? Really? Doesn't even stack with painboy.

Anyway, the turn 1 charge happens on a 6 with at least two wulfen units and they have to be within range but although the chance is small it's still very strong when it happens.

I did a practice game for a tournie, no formations all combined arms at 1850. I played against my friend who I told to build a list he would bring , and he brought two scours, a chaplain, Libby on bikes with black knights soaking up the rest of the points. 2, 8 man black knight bike squads and 1 black knights command with apoth and a flyer.

I brought a 6 man calv with old iron priest, new iron priest and a rune priest supported bye two wulfen squads, 3 claws 2 shields per 5 man. Two Stormfang gunships with grey hunters.

He outflanked me and shot into the wulfen, able to get around my stormshield front wulfen to gun down my claw guys. First squad was down to two wulfen a wound each only because they had help from the flyer. 2nd squad with plasma twin linked alone only killed 2 claws, pack leader left.

4+ 5+ FnP is strong , two wounds. Very survivable even against plasma. Small note. Surviving pack leader killed 5/8 bikers on his own.

Calling them weak survivability isn't actually...true in most cases anyway.

**Orock**

Wulfen with the right "curse" can make thunderwolf Calvary capable of a 42 inch turn one charge. That alone is enough reason to hate them. But there is so much more.

**KingCorpus**

Orock wrote:
Wulfen with the right "curse" can make thunderwolf Calvary capable of a 42 inch turn one charge. That alone is enough reason to hate them. But there is so much more.

How did you get to 42, did you some calculation that involded the re-roll to charges or something? Just out of curiousity

**Lukash_**

It's a super-theoretical situation. Have a Dark Angels detachment with Sammael (gives his unit +3 to moves and run moves), a unit of Thundercav, and a Wulfen Murderpack.

Sammael joins the Thundercav; they move 15", then roll the 7 on the Hunt table, meaning they can move another 15", then charge up to 12".

A more realistic threat range is 36" but eh.

**KingCorpus**

If someone is running that, that's just disgusting.

Ravening shenanigans

**Dakka Wolf**

Lukash_ wrote:
Dakka Wolf wrote:
Don't be daft.
Wulfen aren't broken they're just the first Melee unit in recent history to actually deserve the title 'Elite'.

Are Thundercav not recent history?

Thundercav are 'Fast Attack' not 'Elite' and for some reason the fast attack slots are usually infinitely better than the elite slots.

Bulldogging wrote:
Lukash_ wrote:
Snip

Well, in fairness, if we are gauging melee units being OP by beating Kharn the list would be very long.

TWC Pack Leader w Hammer/Shield on average kills Kharn without dying himself.

Single Necron Wraith gives him a hard time.

Really any single model, or max 2, from a melee unit with an invuln save and more than 1 wound will either kill him or roadblock him.

Kharn really isn't that hot at fighting melee specific units and is definitely not a bar to measure by.

I think of Wulfen as a sign that GW knows melee needs to be improved, and is a great step by them.

Lukash_ wrote:
True, but the main point was the points difference.

The points rack up pretty quick when you start loading them out to survive and kill stuff with decent armour saves.
Nekkid 30ppm
Great axe 38ppm
Frost Claws 42ppm
Leader with Frost Claws 50ppm
Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield 50ppm

By the time you make them capable of surviving a first round of shooting you're paying over TEQ and into the bottom end of HQ costs, and you can't just take one, you have to take them as packs and to get the better effects you have to take multiple packs.