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JesseS wrote:

I would love a more detailed battle report of your game vs Tau if you are willing to write it up, it would be VERY helpful for improving the FanDex.

I didn't make a battle report, but it essentially was the Tau picking the nids apart each turn. First turn the Tau nuked the Swarmlord (and guards), and in the second one they annihilated one Tervigon and a Haruspex.

The problem IMHO is that we simply lack the range and firepower to damage the Tau while they hit us from afar, the most scary unit being a Crisis unit with 4 missiles each and a buffmaned,32 twin-linked S7 shoots with Monster Hunter deal absurd damage even when having to get through 2+ armor.

I have been thinking that a full deepstrike army could work, specially as spawned termagants can charge the turn the tervigon drops, or going full hormagaunt + gargoyle spam, but walking across the board is suicide.

Also, could you please upload the PDF version?

PDF should be up there at the link (there was also the .ai template for the datasheets so others could use it, maybe you downloaded that by accident?).

Yah, I don't think we'll ever be able to equal Tau walking across the board, our shooting just shouldn't be their equal. Making use of our alternate deployment options against them really shines in my experience though. A Mawloc or two, a Tyrannofex with Acid Spray in a Tyrannocyte, even the Swarmlord in a Tyrannocyte to go along with them. 20 Devilgants outflanking. Anything that can put the hurt on the moment it comes down and deny them their shooting advantage. Beta strike for the win.

Curious, it seems I can't download the same thing twice.

I had to change account to download the new version.


Does anyone knows how google drive works?

Little bit of typos found so far (cursory-ish glance)

The bio-plasmic cannon has an 18" S8 AP2 Large blast on the Exocrine's page, but a 30" S6 AP Large blast in the weapons section.

Why'd you change E-shock grubs to S3 AP-?

For the Rupture cannon: maybe change it to "both attacks hit against a vehicle, monstrous creature, gargantuan creature, or superheavy vehicle"? That way you don't end up changing two S10 hits to SD versus a target where 2 hits is better than a S hit? Such as TWC or Necron Destroyers.

Skyburst spores: Probably should just make them S7 AP4, like flak missiles?

I'll take a better look tomorrow.

Thanks for all your hard work!

wraithbalor wrote:The bio-plasmic cannon has an 18" S8 AP2 Large blast on the Exocrine's page, but a 30" S6 AP Large blast in the weapons section.

Whoops, I'll fix that right now.

wraithbalor wrote:Why'd you change E-shock grubs to S3 AP-?

It was pointed out that EGrubs are objectively the best choice, at S5 AP5 they are just better than Dessicator Larvae in every way, and probably better than Shreddershard Beetles. So I tried to make them each good at a different job: DL hunt low save Infantry, being as equally good on Grotesques as they are on Guardsmen. SB hunt good saves, with Rending and Shred the low Strength is actually better as you get more re-rolls to get more chances at Rending. EG hunt Vehicles, especially squadrons. It is a nerf to EGrubs but I think it makes the army better.

wraithbalor wrote:For the Rupture cannon: maybe change it to "both attacks hit against a vehicle, monstrous creature, gargantuan creature, or superheavy vehicle"? That way you don't end up changing two S10 hits to SD versus a target where 2 hits is better than a S hit? Such as TWC or Necron Destroyers.

We have better things to hunt Necron Destroyers now and wouldn't you rather have the SD on TWC since they so often rock Stormshields?

wraithbalor wrote:Skyburst spores: Probably should just make them S7 AP4, like flak missiles?

Flakk Missiles are only Heavy 1, ours are Assault 2, staying in line with Tyranids "more is more" philosophy. With a 36" range you don't need to move them often so a 3 model squad is getting 6 shots at BS4 (with Preferred Enemy if in Synapse Range) for 180pts, which is pretty devastating against Orks, Eldar and Dark Eldar planes, and pretty reasonable against Necrons and SM.

wraithbalor wrote:Thanks for all your hard work!

No worries, it's been a LOT of fun for me.

The way it is worded right now, 2 ripper bases can inflict 3 hull points on a vehicle.
Stopping a vehicle is nice and fluffy, but wrecking it this easily could be a bit too much

Can't see the PDF version on your link.

Also I don't like your decision of dropping warriors and shrikes to 2 wounds but keeping the same cost.

There's some interesting stuff in there, but also some strange choices. Warriors as psykers? Zero fluff justifaction for that.

Genestealers with 3A, HaR and Stealth base, and a 4th attack base for 2 points? That's ridiculously strong. Combined with the GS formation, you could easily put 60-100 Genestealers in the opponent's face, against which there is little they could do to stop them. Going to ground with stealth and shrouding is a straight 3+ cover in open ground. Fly up a flyrant and they immediately stand up because they become fearless. That would legitimately force the meta to adopt more flamers/ignores cover small arms as right now most armies couldn't deal with that outside of deathstar and Superheavies (Although they could die to glances from GS).

Tyrant Guard at 3W is also ridiculously strong. That's ~16 points per 6T 3+ wound.

Carnifex at 90pts is super strong.

Warrior strain models at 2W with no EW base is a massive nerf.

As someone who is also working on a Tyranid fandex, here's my input. Identify what you want to do with the book. Do you want to take the current style of Tyranids and make the bad units more playable? Do you want to give the book as a whole competitive builds?

If either of those are true, then I would suggest less major changes (Adding/removing rules) and more points tweeks. Warriors at 22-25 points are actually fairly attractive units. They are roughly as durable as terminators vs small arms, per base, so making them almost half the cost makes them much more attractive as a whole. Gaunts and Hormagants base are great at their job, that is, being meatshields. The issue is upgrading them to do damage makes them too expensive, so increasing the power of their upgrades or decreasing the cost is a solution. For example, the drop to 8ppm for devourers got people interested in drop pod Termagants, but then the pods were too expensive and it was shelved. If pods were ~40 points, I imagine you would see that unit more often.

If your goal is to make the book more interesting, then you've got to identify what people want. That, of course, is always customization. People love being able to build unique and interesting models/units that fit their idea of what the unit should be/do. This codex has made options slightly more attractive, but, as a whole, it's basically the same old stuff with more powers.

Consider looking at the 3rd/4th edition codex for how Tyranid options were handled. While lacking some internal cost balance, those codices had a LOT going for them as far as options were concerned.

There's definitely some good ideas in here, but you've gone way too far with some stuff, and not nearly far enough with other stuff.

If you're interested, I'd love to collaborate with you. Your layout is beautiful, you've done a great job getting the book together. Shoot me a PM, we could work together on this.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

Genestealers with 3A, HaR and Stealth base, and a 4th attack base for 2 points? That's ridiculously strong. Combined with the GS formation, you could easily put 60-100 Genestealers in the opponent's face, against which there is little they could do to stop them. Going to ground with stealth and shrouding is a straight 3+ cover in open ground. Fly up a flyrant and they immediately stand up because they become fearless. That would legitimately force the meta to adopt more flamers/ignores cover small arms as right now most armies couldn't deal with that outside of deathstar and Superheavies (Although they could die to glances from GS).

Oh please Necron Flayed Ones are far stronger than that for cheaper and yet they hadn't forced a meta change.

Tyrant Guard at 3W is also ridiculously strong. That's ~16 points per 6T 3+ wound.

Which is the same as Necron Spiders, hardly game changing.

Carnifex at 90pts is super strong.

I fail to see how a slow t6 w4 sv3+ unit with no ranged attack is super strong.

Spoletta wrote:The way it is worded right now, 2 ripper bases can inflict 3 hull points on a vehicle.
Stopping a vehicle is nice and fluffy, but wrecking it this easily could be a bit too much

The "one or more" clause makes it so that you only get the result once, regardless of how many extra successes you get but to avoid confusion I'll re-write it. Is this clearer?

"They're everywhere!": Ripper Swarms are the least of the Tyranid organisms in stature, but the greatest in number. Even more than other creatures of the swarm they are completely expendable, hurling themselves into the engines, wheels, treads, or other mobility tools of the vehicle, sacrificing themselves to jam them.

Ripper Swarms may charge non-immobilized vehicles they cannot otherwise hurt, excluding Walkers and Super-Heavy Vehicles. Instead of making attacks choose a number of Ripper Swarm bases to sacrifice. They are immediately removed from play as a casualty, with no saves of any kind.

Roll a number of dice equal to the number of bases sacrificed. If one or more 4's or higher are rolled the vehicle immediately suffers one Immobilized result, and loses a single Hull Point, regardless of how many additional successes are achieved.

Ripper Swarms with the Wings biomorph may charge Flyers, even though models are not normally allowed to do so, and attempt to immobilize them in the same way, but require one or more rolls of 5+ instead of 4+.

Imateria wrote:Can't see the PDF version on your link.

I re-uploaded a new version of the file, is it working for you now?

Tyran wrote:Also I don't like your decision of dropping warriors and shrikes to 2 wounds but keeping the same cost.

I know, but they got massive buffs... I dunno, I think I'll make them T5.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Traceoftoxin wrote:There's some interesting stuff in there, but also some strange choices. Warriors as psykers? Zero fluff justifaction for that.

I made all Synapse creatures Psykers, also I disagree on no fluff justification - all Tyranids derive their psychic powers from their link to the Hive Mind, and all Synapse Creatures have a direct link. Warriors just have a much weaker one compared to Hive Tyrant's.

Traceoftoxin wrote:Genestealers with 3A, HaR and Stealth base, and a 4th attack base for 2 points? That's ridiculously strong. Combined with the GS formation, you could easily put 60-100 Genestealers in the opponent's face, against which there is little they could do to stop them. Going to ground with stealth and shrouding is a straight 3+ cover in open ground. Fly up a flyrant and they immediately stand up because they become fearless. That would legitimately force the meta to adopt more flamers/ignores cover small arms as right now most armies couldn't deal with that outside of deathstar and Superheavies (Although they could die to glances from GS).

That list would be crazy fun, but would be the ultimate in Rock Paper Scissors - it would gompastomp some armies and get absolutely flattened by others. One Imperial Knight with any decent back-up would roll straight over it.

Traceoftoxin wrote:Tyrant Guard at 3W is also ridiculously strong. That's ~16 points per 6T 3+ wound.

16pts per T6 Wound sounds fair to me, currently Tyrant Guard barely worth their points, I'm not even sure 3W changes that.

Traceoftoxin wrote:Carnifex at 90pts is super strong.

I have to agree with Tyran, I think you are dramatically overestimating the strength of Monstrous Creatures. Tomb Spyders get more or less a TMC statline for only 50pts, and no one thinks they are over powered. Sure a Carnifex is better, but it's also nearly double the price.

Traceoftoxin wrote:Warrior strain models at 2W with no EW base is a massive nerf.

It's a big nerf but they gained a lot - Expendable "saves", -5ppm, Brotherhood of Psykers and Move Through Cover.

Traceoftoxin wrote:As someone who is also working on a Tyranid fandex, here's my input. Identify what you want to do with the book. Do you want to take the current style of Tyranids and make the bad units more playable? Do you want to give the book as a whole competitive builds?

I did do that, it's straight in my mission statement on page 2 haha - I want to make fluffy lists viable, although not uber-competitive. To me fluffy means three things:

1.) Adaptable, with lots of tools for different problems.
2.) Good mix of hordes and monsters as a viable play style.
3.) Emphasis on making the units synergize better together.

These things were mostly focused on by reducing points cost across the board (especially in our horribly overcosted MCs), giving us more and better access to upgrades and options (without turning it into the "fun for the Nid player, cl*sterf*ck for the opposing player" that the 4th Ed Dex was), getting special rules that worked by promoting mixed style armies (Expendable is the easiest go-to example but Ravenous Advance, the proliferation of Ld decreasing Psychic Powers and Pinning on better and more platforms are all examples), and just having some fun with it ("They're Everywhere" hahaha).

Traceoftoxin wrote:If your goal is to make the book more interesting, then you've got to identify what people want. That, of course, is always customization. People love being able to build unique and interesting models/units that fit their idea of what the unit should be/do. This codex has made options slightly more attractive, but, as a whole, it's basically the same old stuff with more powers.

Consider looking at the 3rd/4th edition codex for how Tyranid options were handled. While lacking some internal cost balance, those codices had a LOT going for them as far as options were concerned.

I'm not sure everyone is as eager to go back to the insanity that the upgrades were in 4th Ed as you are my friend.

Traceoftoxin wrote:There's definitely some good ideas in here, but you've gone way too far with some stuff, and not nearly far enough with other stuff.

What do you think I've gone too far on?

Traceoftoxin wrote:If you're interested, I'd love to collaborate with you. Your layout is beautiful, you've done a great job getting the book together. Shoot me a PM, we could work together on this.

Post your Dex here, we have a small but great community going on this thread, and they've been IMMENSELY helpful for me.

Tyran wrote:

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

Genestealers with 3A, HaR and Stealth base, and a 4th attack base for 2 points? That's ridiculously strong. Combined with the GS formation, you could easily put 60-100 Genestealers in the opponent's face, against which there is little they could do to stop them. Going to ground with stealth and shrouding is a straight 3+ cover in open ground. Fly up a flyrant and they immediately stand up because they become fearless. That would legitimately force the meta to adopt more flamers/ignores cover small arms as right now most armies couldn't deal with that outside of deathstar and Superheavies (Although they could die to glances from GS).

Oh please Necron Flayed Ones are far stronger than that for cheaper and yet they hadn't forced a meta change.

Tyrant Guard at 3W is also ridiculously strong. That's ~16 points per 6T 3+ wound.

Which is the same as Necron Spiders, hardly game changing.

Carnifex at 90pts is super strong.

I fail to see how a slow t6 w4 sv3+ unit with no ranged attack is super strong.

Comparing Flayed Ones to Genestealers is like comparing Gants to Marines. First and foremost, Genestealers have rending, which immediately makes them much more dangerous than Flayed Ones. They can kill anything in the game with a T value, and glance up to AV13. They are WS6, meaning they hit everything short of characters on 3s, I6, meaning they go before everything short of characters (And sweep most things reliably), and Fearless. Flayed ones do two things well, shred low save infantry, and absorb bullets. Ask Daemon players what Daemonettes do to things when they get to assault.

I've played a lot of Genestealers. I played them all the way up to the top tables of Wargamescon back in 5th edition. Giving them 50% more damage output, stealth, HNR, and then a formation where they get shrouded and a 6" infiltrate will make them unbelievable. There's always a tipping point where the opponent simply cannot remove enough of them.

Right, Spiders have similar durability, but are weaker in combat. If you know someone who has said Spiders were overcosted for their durability, then you know someone who doesn't understand the costs of the game. Paying less than 20 points per T6 3+ wound is nuts dude. That's some of the cheapest wounds-per-toughness in the game. The reason units like the Riptide and Wraithlord are so strong is because they pay virtually nothing for their durability. That's what costing models at this rate is turning into.

I made all Synapse creatures Psykers, also I disagree on no fluff justification - all Tyranids derive their psychic powers from their link to the Hive Mind, and all Synapse Creatures have a direct link. Warriors just have a much weaker one compared to Hive Tyrant's.

It's pretty clear in the fluff that Tyranid psykers need to be specially adapted to channel psychic abilities, it takes a lot of resources to make them capable of doing it. The reason why warriors have never is because they're not supposed to be massively resource intensive, they're supposed to be the cheapest (biomass wise) way to put synapse out there. Maybe an available upgrade to turn them into psykers, but I don't see the justification for it.

That list would be crazy fun, but would be the ultimate in Rock Paper Scissors - it would gompastomp some armies and get absolutely flattened by others. One Imperial Knight with any decent back-up would roll straight over it.

I think you're completely wrong. Proper spacing and deployment of the stealers would keep the knight from getting anywhere across the board. If you're playing objectives, that's how you win the game. 5x10 man units of stealers could completely shut down an entire army's first two turns of movement. Especially if the Tyranid player got first turn. Not to mention, any stealers that survive in 1s and 2s can eat overwatches, or gang up on small units and easily wipe them, and units of 10 will do serious damage to almost anything they charge.

The thing that shuts down a stealer list is servo skulls.

16pts per T6 Wound sounds fair to me, currently Tyrant Guard barely worth their points, I'm not even sure 3W changes that.

I disagree completely. 16pts per t6 wound is way too cheap. Why not just drop the cost to 40 pts? That's a 20% durability buff rather than a 50% durability buff, while also making their offensive power more efficient.

I have to agree with Tyran, I think you are dramatically overestimating the strength of Monstrous Creatures. Tomb Spyders get more or less a TMC statline for only 50pts, and no one thinks they are over powered. Sure a Carnifex is better, but it's also nearly double the price.

No one thinks TS are overpowered, that's 100% true. No one also things they're underpowered in any way. They are significantly weaker than a Carnifex in combat, it's not even comparable. No one worries about a TS assaulting them because it's 2xS6 attacks, it'll kill a marine a turn, can barely threaten vehicles with it's single s10 smash. S9 base is a really big deal. You can double things out, you can wreck any vehicle in the game (Even with your HOW). Everyone knows to be afraid of the dakkafexes shooting, but when you charge in, it hurts real bad too. Pricing the devourers like that was smart, dakkafexes are a solid unit as it is, but I think you're really overlooking the strength of getting naked fexes at 90ppm.

It's a big nerf but they gained a lot - Expendable "saves", -5ppm, Brotherhood of Psykers and Move Through Cover.

I missed the -5ppm. I think without the BoP, the Expendable, MTC and -5ppm changes would actually end up being a fair balance. At 30ppm with the 3+ save, you're paying basically SM durability costs.

it's straight in my mission statement on page 2 haha

Clearly I skipped that, my bad.

I see a lot of stuff that feels like massive points drops or changes without consideration for how it could be abused, which is common when you're doing something solo, and is a hallmark of all GW books.

I'm not sure everyone is as eager to go back to the insanity that the upgrades were in 4th Ed as you are my friend.

I would highly disagree with you. Customization is one of the biggest draws of 40k over other game systems. Look at the Deathwatch release. One of the most hyped releases I've seen in a long time, because you can customize every single model in your army. People LOVE making their army unique, and having it's own flavor. Giving people more options is good. As for it being difficult for your opponent... most players don't even know their own army 100%, having +1S on one unit compared to another, so long as it's visible, is not game-breaking. Do you get a headache every time someone has a differently equipped sergeant in their squad?

What do you think I've gone too far on?

Deathleaper is insanely powerful right now, particularly with his formation. You can easily wipe out any 2W character with impunity. Making it so the enemy cannot deny challenges AND you get to pick the character, on a model that can pretty easily hide behind LOS, and can now deploy anywhere and assault immediately, is ridiculous. It's not a fun mechanic for your opponent. If you went with 4th edition style, where he can assault out of DS, but can only DS into terrain, you give the opponent the ability to somewhat mitigate this. Or change the forced challenge to make them do a LD check, d6, something where they feel like they had the chance to get away. Also adds tension to the moment.

I am 100% confident GS the way you have them, with that formation, are broken. If I have to, I'll play any 1850 list you guys can come up with against it. Aside from a straight Knights army, which I still think the GS will do well against, I'm pretty confident that having the ability to put GS out like that will be game breaking. In 5th edition, putting 35 GS with FNP and 4+ cover at 18" was ridiculous for most armies to shift. Having a 3+ cover save on command, 2+ in actual cover, at 6", will break most armies. Wyverns, SMS, and TFC are the only major ignores cover I can think of that gets serious play. Even still, with 50 bodies, they likely won't have enough to remove even half, since careful use of position will place models out of LOS, and force them to shoot through coherency giving other units 2+ cover. The only reasons Mechanicum stealers don't see more play is the low terrain density on most boards, the lack of a guarantee of ruins, and severely limited brood size. 5 models is too few to survive MSU shooting, and too small to cover big sections of the board. The 3A base and 4th attack (+grenades) for only a few points is what really breaks it. Your Genestealers are 50% more powerful in assault standard, 33% on charging turns. Giving them those extra attacks, and with grenades, means they will shred basically anything in the game before it gets to fight. At 3A you will be rending every 3rd GS (9 attacks, 6 hits, 1 rend), and at 4A almost every other GS. That will add up very, very quickly, when you can infiltrate all those units with stealth and shrouding right in the opponents face.

Drop them back to 2A base and 14ppm and they'd be solid with HNR and Stealth. Change the formation to just give them scout. Yeah, you could still end up 1" away if you have first turn, but you won't be able to infiltrate straight into cover in perfect formation just outside their lines. It also makes it so Servo Skulls don't completely invalidate the Genestealers. The Shrouding is also still REALLY strong, but at 2A base, they're less overwhelming in assault.

Giving everything with Scything Talons grenades is a big deal. Falling back and forcing Tyranids to fight over stuff to get to you for your advantage is super fluffy. While it's frustrating for us bug players, it was a major handicap that helped keep us from sweeping every CC we get into. I think that giving Tyranids a way to get into combat at initiative is a good idea, I don't think giving it for free or cheap to every dedicated CC unit is the solution. The 5th edition rerolls on ST was a pretty fair way to go, gave a legit reason to ever want a second pair.

Gargoyles at 8ppm is terrible. Doesn't matter how powerful their CC attack is, they die to a stiff breeze, not to mention they're very much meant to be meatshields.

Raveners at -10ppm and a 4+ save is an insanely large buff, even with -1W. You've made then 33% cheaper, and against most small arms, a further 33% more durable. They were a fringe unit before, this makes them absolutely brutal. I would 100% take 2x6 of these with RC in every list for 150 pts a unit.

No reason to add Shred to Biovores, although pinning is fair (As all barrage weapons used to be pinning).

Spirit Leech is absolutely insane. Average for 3d6 is 11, average LD is 7/8. With the -1 from SITW (Which is a good chance), you're talking about 4 wounds on average to tactical squads with no saves, which isn't INSANE, but, the fact that it gets you 4 more WC absolutely is. You could easily end up with 5-7 extra dice off of this power. On the flip side, the Malceptor's power is still absolute trash. Either reduce SL to 2d6, or reduce the dice coming in. Make the Malceptors power WC1, it'll take 2 dice instead of 4 to have a decent chance to cast.

Post your Dex here, we have a small but great community going on this thread, and they've been IMMENSELY helpful for me.

Yours is so pretty it puts my word document to shame, haha. What do you use to edit it?

 Traceoftoxin wrote:


Comparing Flayed Ones to Genestealers is like comparing Gants to Marines. First and foremost, Genestealers have rending, which immediately makes them much more dangerous than Flayed Ones. They can kill anything in the game with a T value, and glance up to AV13. They are WS6, meaning they hit everything short of characters on 3s, I6, meaning they go before everything short of characters (And sweep most things reliably), and Fearless. Flayed ones do two things well, shred low save infantry, and absorb bullets. Ask Daemon players what Daemonettes do to things when they get to assault.

And Flayed ones have more attacks and far more durability, they may be useless against armor, but they will kill almost anything with a T value just by how much wounds they can inflict. Also they are cheaper. I'm comparing the numbers, even this version of Genestealers still loses hilariously against Flayed ones, 13 Genestealers vs 15 Flayed ones ends with the Flayed ones losing 4 or 5 models while genestealers being annihilated.

And that is the problem, Genestealers are so fragile that even with their damage output they will suffer heavy loses against anything that can strike back.

I've played a lot of Genestealers. I played them all the way up to the top tables of Wargamescon back in 5th edition. Giving them 50% more damage output, stealth, HNR, and then a formation where they get shrouded and a 6" infiltrate will make them unbelievable. There's always a tipping point where the opponent simply cannot remove enough of them.

And this isn't 5th edition, armies like Eldar, Tau and Necrons will eat any 5th edition dex for breakfast, even the 6th ed Tyranids can work very well against 5th editions ones, the power creep is real and is insane.

Right, Spiders have similar durability, but are weaker in combat. If you know someone who has said Spiders were overcosted for their durability, then you know someone who doesn't understand the costs of the game. Paying less than 20 points per T6 3+ wound is nuts dude. That's some of the cheapest wounds-per-toughness in the game. The reason units like the Riptide and Wraithlord are so strong is because they pay virtually nothing for their durability. That's what costing models at this rate is turning into.

And also because they are ranged, mobile units, the advantage shooting has over assault is massive. You could give any Tyranid unit Riptide level of durability and it still wouldn't be anywhere that good because it would still need to cross the board to reach assault. Consider the GK Dreadknight, t6 w4, sv2+/5++, jumping and s10 force weapons for only 130 points. It is faster, more durable and far more killy than anything on this codex for the same points, but while not underpowered, it doesn't dominated the meta at all.

And Tyrant Guards are not that much better in combat, they are infantry not MC, their attacks aren't normally ap2 unless rending or crushing claws (which is a significant cost increase), also they don't spawn a 20 pt model for free each turn.

No one thinks TS are overpowered, that's 100% true. No one also things they're underpowered in any way. They are significantly weaker than a Carnifex in combat, it's not even comparable. No one worries about a TS assaulting them because it's 2xS6 attacks, it'll kill a marine a turn, can barely threaten vehicles with it's single s10 smash. S9 base is a really big deal. You can double things out, you can wreck any vehicle in the game (Even with your HOW). Everyone knows to be afraid of the dakkafexes shooting, but when you charge in, it hurts real bad too. Pricing the devourers like that was smart, dakkafexes are a solid unit as it is, but I think you're really overlooking the strength of getting naked fexes at 90ppm.

And the Carnifex is paying for that better statline with almost double the cost.

Tyran wrote:
And Flayed ones have more attacks and far more durability, they may be useless against armor, but they will kill almost anything with a T value just by how much wounds they can inflict. Also they are cheaper. I'm comparing the numbers, even this version of Genestealers still loses hilariously against Flayed ones, 13 Genestealers vs 15 Flayed ones ends with the Flayed ones losing 4 or 5 models while genestealers being annihilated.

And that is the problem, Genestealers are so fragile that even with their damage output they will suffer heavy loses against anything that can strike back.

Except the Flayed ones do basically no damage to T6+, or 2+ saves. Genestealers can, and will, reliably destroy these targets. 10 FO attacks will put 1.5 wounds (Before saves) on T6, 10 GS attacks will put a rend. FO can't even hurt T8.

They are cheaper, but they're also not troops, they also lack hit and run, they also have I2, and no leadership control. They are also equally or less durable than Stealth+Shrouded GS, except to a handful of ignores cover weapons.

That has never been the problem with stealers. If you've ever played stealer shock lists, the issue has always been surviving long enough to get into combat. Why would you ever throw Genestealers at Flayed Ones, or anything else with high attacks characteristics? Considering you have a 6" infiltrate, you have complete control over where you deploy.

And this isn't 5th edition, armies like Eldar, Tau and Necrons will eat any 5th edition dex for breakfast, even the 6th ed Tyranids can work very well against 5th editions ones, the power creep is real and is insane.

You're right, the power creep is real, and is insane, and making formations+units like this is exactly that. If you think Tyranids can't currently give any codex in the game a run for their money in a game that goes to it's natural conclusion, you need to play more. As it stands, the biggest reason Tyranids aren't a top tier tournament codex is you simply cannot play a 100+ model army (That may even have returning models) to turn 5/6 in 2.5 hours. Our book has all the tools to completely dominate objective based games, and creating a formation that lets you completely bottle your opponent up with one of the strongest assault units in the game will only make it worse. It's not always about having the hardest hitting stick, outside of KP based missions, being able to control board space and objectives is far, far more important.

And also because they are ranged, mobile units, the advantage shooting has over assault is massive. You could give any Tyranid unit Riptide level of durability and it still wouldn't be anywhere that good because it would still need to cross the board to reach assault. Consider the GK Dreadknight, t6 w4, sv2+/5++, jumping and s10 force weapons for only 130 points. It is faster, more durable and far more killy than anything on this codex for the same points, but while not underpowered, it doesn't dominated the meta at all.

And Tyrant Guards are not that much better in combat, they are infantry not MC, their attacks aren't normally ap2 unless rending or crushing claws (which is a significant cost increase), also they don't spawn a 20 pt model for free each turn.

A model doesn't need to reach assault to win the game. It simply has to force your opponent to not be on an objective by virtue of threatening it. If your army ends the game on the center line, and the opponent is 12" away, you now hold half the board, and should consequently hold more than half of the objectives (As you should hold the center of the board). This doesn't translate as well to other codices, because other codices don't press their entire army forward like we do. Orks do, and it won Pajamapants numerous GTs, although he has gone on record as saying, once again, time limits are his biggest enemy. No one is scared of a riptide in assault, despite how durable it is, because it's not fearless and it's not going to kill much.

The Dreadknight does not have force weapons or jumping at 130 pts. It is 165 pts minimum for that loadout, and is also considered one of a small number of strong choices in an otherwise trash codex. People did in fact bring it to shift the meta, but found GK as a whole simply weren't good enough at, surprise surprise, holding objectives. Too few bodies with too little damage output to make up for it. Again, you're looking at things out of context.

Tyrant Guard are that much better in combat. That hit on 3s vs 4s and get hit on 4s vs 3s, they swing at a solid I, and they have a solid number of attacks. They have a similar average output on most targets, but have a much better variance. Their job is to keep a Tyrant alive, and by making them 16 pts a wound you're giving a Tyrant free wounds, as he has a guaranteed LOS.

And the Carnifex is paying for that better statline with almost double the cost.

Which is absolutely worth it.

Most of these models are fair to discuss, but i have to agree on Deathleaper. He is truly too much. I see no reason not to take him in every single list.
Maybe a little point increase and gets overwatched as usual if he charges in the first turn?

 Traceoftoxin wrote:


Except the Flayed ones do basically no damage to T6+, or 2+ saves. Genestealers can, and will, reliably destroy these targets. 10 FO attacks will put 1.5 wounds (Before saves) on T6, 10 GS attacks will put a rend. FO can't even hurt T8.

They are cheaper, but they're also not troops, they also lack hit and run, they also have I2, and no leadership control. They are also equally or less durable than Stealth+Shrouded GS, except to a handful of ignores cover weapons.

That has never been the problem with stealers. If you've ever played stealer shock lists, the issue has always been surviving long enough to get into combat. Why would you ever throw Genestealers at Flayed Ones, or anything else with high attacks characteristics? Considering you have a 6" infiltrate, you have complete control over where you deploy.

You're right, the power creep is real, and is insane, and making formations+units like this is exactly that. If you think Tyranids can't currently give any codex in the game a run for their money in a game that goes to it's natural conclusion, you need to play more. As it stands, the biggest reason Tyranids aren't a top tier tournament codex is you simply cannot play a 100+ model army (That may even have returning models) to turn 5/6 in 2.5 hours. Our book has all the tools to completely dominate objective based games, and creating a formation that lets you completely bottle your opponent up with one of the strongest assault units in the game will only make it worse. It's not always about having the hardest hitting stick, outside of KP based missions, being able to control board space and objectives is far, far more important.

One of the strongest assault unit in the game? any assault deathstar will eat Genestealers for breakfast. Yeah Genestealers will murder any non-assault unit in the game, but they suffer when they have to deal with other dedicated assault units.

Also ignore cover weapons aren't exactly rare, they may be rare in the meta, but everyone has access to at least template weapons, so it isn't like Genestealer spam is uncounterable, at most it will force a change in the meta.

A model doesn't need to reach assault to win the game. It simply has to force your opponent to not be on an objective by virtue of threatening it. If your army ends the game on the center line, and the opponent is 12" away, you now hold half the board, and should consequently hold more than half of the objectives (As you should hold the center of the board). This doesn't translate as well to other codices, because other codices don't press their entire army forward like we do. Orks do, and it won Pajamapants numerous GTs, although he has gone on record as saying, once again, time limits are his biggest enemy. No one is scared of a riptide in assault, despite how durable it is, because it's not fearless and it's not going to kill much.

But Orks don't have the problem that killing synapse creatures pretty much shuts down the entire army. Also Orks have T4, furious charge and more attacks, any ork unit can wreck a transport while gaunts need adrenal glands to have the same effect.

Tyrant Guard are that much better in combat. That hit on 3s vs 4s and get hit on 4s vs 3s, they swing at a solid I, and they have a solid number of attacks. They have a similar average output on most targets, but have a much better variance. Their job is to keep a Tyrant alive, and by making them 16 pts a wound you're giving a Tyrant free wounds, as he has a guaranteed LOS.

Which is absolutely worth it.

Both are strong, but standard anti-MC weapons still will murder them, D weapons, Grav and Tau in general are still a thing after all.

Dark Eldar poison weapons or Disintegrators would do a lot of damage as well.

Spoletta wrote:Most of these models are fair to discuss, but i have to agree on Deathleaper. He is truly too much. I see no reason not to take him in every single list.
Maybe a little point increase and gets overwatched as usual if he charges in the first turn?

Traceoftoxin wrote:Deathleaper is insanely powerful right now, particularly with his formation. You can easily wipe out any 2W character with impunity. Making it so the enemy cannot deny challenges AND you get to pick the character, on a model that can pretty easily hide behind LOS, and can now deploy anywhere and assault immediately, is ridiculous. It's not a fun mechanic for your opponent.

Deathleaper only gets to charge first turn if he's your Warlord, and while yes, he will wipe out any 2W character in the game (and a lot of the 3W ones), he's still extremely fragile and is going to immediately give up Slay the Warlord when that characters squad hit's back. I'll move him up to 115pts though.

Genestealer debate.

I think you should try a game with the new Genestealers, they are much better, but not as practical as you think. They can't charge first turn (Infiltrate explicitly precludes that), which means the enemy is guaranteed a full turn of shooting at them, two if your opponent goes first. The formation bonus only gets them 6" away if you can put the ENTIRE unit in area terrain, which means you are definitely not getting 60-100 models within 6" of the enemy, and the models you do get are going to need to be bunched up if you want more than a couple units, the rest of your 'Stealers will have to be 18" away as normal.

I'm not arguing they are strong, they are definitely back to their glory days, but they are still Glass Hammers, they have no durability outside of Stealth (and 1st turn Shrouded if you use the GSI formation). You are still losing quite a few models before you get to attack (or are buying Flesh Hooks for 3ppm which brings them up to a fairly high price tag per model).

Traceoftoxin wrote:The 3A base and 4th attack (+grenades) for only a few points is what really breaks it.

I don't think 5pts is only a "few" points, that's a third of their base cost - at 20ppm they should be good.

Regardless, rather than theory-hammering I'll play a game with this Stealer Shock list you've proposed. This weekend I'm road-tripping up to Edmonton Expo so I can't this weekend but next weekend a friend of mine who plays Eldar has agreed to play against it.

Traceoftoxin wrote:You're right, the power creep is real, and is insane, and making formations+units like this is exactly that. If you think Tyranids can't currently give any codex in the game a run for their money in a game that goes to it's natural conclusion, you need to play more. As it stands, the biggest reason Tyranids aren't a top tier tournament codex is you simply cannot play a 100+ model army (That may even have returning models) to turn 5/6 in 2.5 hours. Our book has all the tools to completely dominate objective based games, and creating a formation that lets you completely bottle your opponent up with one of the strongest assault units in the game will only make it worse. It's not always about having the hardest hitting stick, outside of KP based missions, being able to control board space and objectives is far, far more important.

This is just objectively not true and if you think it is you need more competitive opponents. I 100% agree that the artificial constraints of tournament settings needlessly handicap horde armies such as Nids and Orks (and even certain IG builds), but if you think an equally skilled Eldar, Tau, or Necron player can't absolutely demolish an equally skilled Tyranid player then you aren't playing people as good as you are. I play both Necrons and Tyranids and I don't even bring my Necrons out anymore unless someone asks me to specifically because the Decurion Detachment makes them ungoldly durable, with excellent firepower to boot. We don't have an innate advantage in objective games at all. Our Synapse Creatures are too expensive to take alongside a big horde and still have enough points left over for other threat mitigation, and that means any skilled player has a built-in roadmap to take us apart. Tau and Eldar can tear down your Synapse Web before you even cross the board.

That's one of the biggest things I've been trying to mitigate in this FanDex.

You keep implying (or outright stating) that Tyranids have the advantage in Objective based games because we can cover half the board with models, and against the lowest tier Codex's that might be true, but against the middle and top tier books it's just simply not. Every 7th Ed book can force us to just remove handful after handful of models with us doing minimal damage back because we lack the range, speed, or hitting power to retaliate effectively. This FanDex definitely changes that, and definitely brings us up to either the high end of the middle tier or low end of the top-tier with a few builds.

Tyrant Guard are that much better in combat. That hit on 3s vs 4s and get hit on 4s vs 3s, they swing at a solid I, and they have a solid number of attacks. They have a similar average output on most targets, but have a much better variance. Their job is to keep a Tyrant alive, and by making them 16 pts a wound you're giving a Tyrant free wounds, as he has a guaranteed LOS.

By definition 16pts per Wound isn't free, haha, and it's also a relatively slow unit (you can't put them and a Hive Tyrant in a Pod). They have a decent Initiative yes, but they only get to use it when attacking with their worst weapon (Scy Tals), or if you buy them Bonesword & Lashwhip (which makes them 70ppm.)

Raveners at -10ppm and a 4+ save is an insanely large buff, even with -1W. You've made then 33% cheaper, and against most small arms, a further 33% more durable. They were a fringe unit before, this makes them absolutely brutal. I would 100% take 2x6 of these with RC in every list for 150 pts a unit.

How do you figure 33% more durable? 4+ to 5+ is 16%, they are still 10pts per Wound, and were absolute garbage before.

Scything Talons.

I think you've misunderstood how Scything Talons work, you count as having assault grenades only when attacking with the Scything Talons themselves, it doesn't transfer to other weapons. So a Genestealer or Ravener with RC and Scy Tals charging into terrain can attack at it's Initiative with Scy Tals, or can attack at Initiative 1 with it's Rending Claws. Both need to buy Flesh Hooks as well if they want to attack at Initiative with their Rending Claws. That makes the 'uberStealer' build 20ppm and Rending Raveners 28ppm.

Spirit Leech is absolutely insane. Average for 3d6 is 11, average LD is 7/8. With the -1 from SITW (Which is a good chance), you're talking about 4 wounds on average to tactical squads with no saves, which isn't INSANE, but, the fact that it gets you 4 more WC absolutely is. You could easily end up with 5-7 extra dice off of this power. On the flip side, the Malceptor's power is still absolute trash. Either reduce SL to 2d6, or reduce the dice coming in. Make the Malceptors power WC1, it'll take 2 dice instead of 4 to have a decent chance to cast.

I'll put a cap on the dice SL can generate. Probably 1 Wound = 1 WC, 2+ Wounds = D3 WC, so the most you can ever get back is 3 WC.

Yours is so pretty it puts my word document to shame, haha. What do you use to edit it?

Adobe Illustrator (Adobe InDesign would be better but I only have Illustrator haha). I don't think anyone will mind a Word Doc but if you are nervous about showing it, send it to me over e-mail instead: jesse.l.sinclair@gmail.com

The Tyrant buff seems kinda unneeded it was already a good model it was just flyrants were better witch was the only reason people never took them. At 140 points I feel like they are to much as I can not think of any model that can kill them at 140 points in a different codex. Not only dose it have a great close combat MC statline it is also a psyker with ML two and it got extended carpes back letting it bring it's durability close to that of a riptide.

Also making 3 power dispels seems strange as it lets you snipe the power you want most the time if you got ML2. Also the buff to peroxisome seems uneed as it was already one of the better powers and the spirit leach change seems just silly as it lets you cast it for close to free as it will almost always pay back it's warp charges.

 mew28 wrote:
The Tyrant buff seems kinda unneeded it was already a good model it was just flyrants were better witch was the only reason people never took them. At 140 points I feel like they are to much as I can not think of any model that can kill them at 140 points in a different codex. Not only dose it have a great close combat MC statline it is also a psyker with ML two and it got extended carpes back letting it bring it's durability close to that of a riptide.

Well, he is trying to make the walking version to be proportional as good as the flying version. And at 140 points they are t6 w4 t3, plenty of things can kill that, and with the 2+ upgrade it is close to a riptide in cost.

Also making 3 power dispels seems strange as it lets you snipe the power you want most the time if you got ML2. Also the buff to peroxisome seems uneed as it was already one of the better powers and the spirit leach change seems just silly as it lets you cast it for close to free as it will almost always pay back it's warp charges.

He buffed paroxism but also made it a WC 2 power.

Dose it truly make sense to try and make it viable to a unit as good as a flyrant? I mean currently a flyrants so good it can prop up the rest of the codex as being competitive. I personally would rather see the flyrant just toned down a bit and make the rest of the codex better.

 mew28 wrote:
Dose it truly make sense to try and make it viable to a unit as good as a flyrant? I mean currently a flyrants so good it can prop up the rest of the codex as being competitive. I personally would rather see the flyrant just toned down a bit and make the rest of the codex better.

Did you actually go through the options for the Hive Tyrant? Jesse boosted the cost of TWD and Wings so a Flyrant is still 235pts whilst a walking version is now much cheaper, and a much needed change it is too.

 mew28 wrote:
The Tyrant buff seems kinda unneeded it was already a good model it was just flyrants were better witch was the only reason people never took them. At 140 points I feel like they are to much as I can not think of any model that can kill them at 140 points in a different codex. Not only dose it have a great close combat MC statline it is also a psyker with ML two and it got extended carpes back letting it bring it's durability close to that of a riptide.

Also making 3 power dispels seems strange as it lets you snipe the power you want most the time if you got ML2. Also the buff to peroxisome seems uneed as it was already one of the better powers and the spirit leach change seems just silly as it lets you cast it for close to free as it will almost always pay back it's warp charges.

Re: Tyrants. The walking Hive Tyrant definitely needed a buff, as they currently are they are garbage - much less durable and useful than comparable units. I would also argue that its not Flyrants that are a good unit, it's specifically Dakka Flyrants, the two TL Dev version. It's not like you see melee Flyrants, or even those rocking a Venom Cannon or Barbed Strangler ever.

Therefore I dropped the price of the Tyrant base, making the walking Tyrant not such a point sink, but increased the cost of wings (+5pts) and TL Devs (+10pts). This makes the new Dakka Flyrant the same price as the old, but makes other options much cheaper (and hopefully more attractive).

Re: Powers. I would like to increase each Psychic discipline to a full 7 powers - if we aren't allowed rulebook powers we need variability. That will will hopefully compensate by making it substantially less of a guarantee you'll get the power you want. As noted in a previous reply Spirit Leech will be toned down in the next version. It is a bit ridiculous as it is now.

Thank you for your feedback!

The 4 powers per discipline works well, specially as most units are restricted to 1 or 2 disciplines.

Also, does anyone feel that the Acid spray is a must have in the Tyrannofex? it outperforms the Flesborer Hive against everything except t3 (assuming no cover) and has better range.

Meanwhile the Rupture Cannon has negligible damage unless it manages to get the D shot.

 Imateria wrote:

 mew28 wrote:
Dose it truly make sense to try and make it viable to a unit as good as a flyrant? I mean currently a flyrants so good it can prop up the rest of the codex as being competitive. I personally would rather see the flyrant just toned down a bit and make the rest of the codex better.

Did you actually go through the options for the Hive Tyrant? Jesse boosted the cost of TWD and Wings so a Flyrant is still 235pts whilst a walking version is now much cheaper, and a much needed change it is too.

Yes I read the entire codex. I honestly think the flyrant should have costed more and well it is true the hive tyrant could have used a buff I feel like a 25 point drop was to much as it is still a ML2 pyker with great stats that make it incredibly powerful in close combat even with no upgrades.

Tyran you wouldn't want new powers added even if they were all useful? I was thinking there is a lot more that could be fun in Adaptation - a power that grants Rage to the target unit. A 2 WC power that allows a unit to shoot twice in the next shooing phase. Maybe a toughness increase power or something that grants a temporary Invul save.

The Acid Spray is really good I agree. I was thinking of giving the Rupture Cannon a second firing mode to make it more useful. Right now it hunts Vehicles and only vehicles, which makes the RC build something you only take if you KNOW you are facing Knights or vehicle spam.

JesseS wrote:
Tyran you wouldn't want new powers added even if they were all useful? I was thinking there is a lot more that could be fun in Adaptation - a power that grants Rage to the target unit. A 2 WC power that allows a unit to shoot twice in the next shooing phase. Maybe a toughness increase power or something that grants a temporary Invul save.

The Acid Spray is really good I agree. I was thinking of giving the Rupture Cannon a second firing mode to make it more useful. Right now it hunts Vehicles and only vehicles, which makes the RC build something you only take if you KNOW you are facing Knights or vehicle spam.

I didn't mean that I wouldn't want, but rather that it wasn't needed. If you have a lot of ideas then you could add them, of course you also would have to think of 9 new powers, 3 for each discipline.

As for the Rupture Cannon, it isn't even that good against vehicles, as one s10 ap4 shot is only stripping a hull point each turn. The rare D shot will help, but not that much as it is unreliable at best. Hive Guard, Zoanthropes and Crushing Claws are far better anti-vehicle weapons.

Well, the Rupture Cannon is AP2 now, so that helps. I still think the T-fex should be BS4, to make the D shot more likely. For the Fleshborer hive, returning it to 18" range will help, but the main problem with it is that it's main target is the same as the Acid Spray, but Acid Spray is better. Currently (with 12" range) the Acid Spray has a better range, wounds easier, and ignores both cover and armor in almost all cases. You can get more hits (potentially) from the hive, but you'll kill more with the spray. Unfortunately, I can't think of anything to do with it right now. I'll think it over and talk to friends about some possibilities.

For psychic powers, have you looked at the 1d4chan 7th edition Tyranid fan-dex? It's fairly well done, though I think they went a little too far in power level. Their psychic powers, though, were good.

Walk-rants really needed the buff, as they are currently worthless. But to be fair, so are just about all of our MC's in the competitive meta. Too much grav, scat bikes, or D-weapons for any walking, slow MC's to do anything but die.

BTW, here are the battlescribe files I made for the codex. If you see any error please report it to me.

EDIT: also, there are a lot of mentions to "area terrain", which technically doesn't exist anymore in the 7th edition.

And for the genestealer spam, infiltrators also counter them.

And does anyone else feel that the first turn deepstrike of the Trygon essentially is sacrificing it unless you somehow have other first turn early threats?

^It's a definite problem for the Trygon but I feel it would be a case of risk/reward. One of the big things about the Trygon is that it makes a tunnel for other units to come up out of but at present it's a completely useless feature without the ability to come on turn 1, too often you'll come on the same time or after the units you want to pass through that tunnel.