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I tried the Trygon with drop pod rules (half come in on turn one) and it was too powerful. Not the Trygon's themselves but the ability to deploy multiple units across multiple tunnels right into the heart of the enemy with no scatter. The only one Trygon is definitely a case where the reward needs to be worth the risk in your eyes.

Give Trygon an escort style rule, similar to stormtalons, brings one unit in behind it.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
Give Trygon an escort style rule, similar to stormtalons, brings one unit in behind it.

Good call, I can put the rule on Raveners which would be suuuuper fluffy.

As for the Genestealers, maybe we should wait and see what the Genestealer Cult Codex does with them.

For Raveners, instead of making them melee specialists with the deep strike rule as an afterthought, i suggest we focus more on that rule.
Let's leave them at the actual point cost and stat line they have on the official codex, then we enhance the deep strike capabilites. Fluff wise, deep strike mishaps and randomness is dumb when you are just emerging, in particular if you are guided by someone. I suggest that they can decide on which turn they come onto the table and if the result of the deep strike is a mishap, they reduce the scattering accordlngly, like trygons. If they elect to deep strike in an area covered by synapse, they do not scatter.

Now they have a clear role which is not in contrast with the shrikes, the cost is justified and they are more respecting of the fluff.

^I'd suggest at least keeping the 4+ armour change, they're too fragile with 5+ and it is a consideration because they are competing directly with Shrikes, who already have the benefit of being a Synapse unit.

Wow, if the rumors are true, the new Genestealers put the Fan Edition version to shame (so not even bother comparing them with the official Tyranid ones).

13pts/model, 3A, 5++, and Scything Talons for 3pts.

And the metamorph weapons are stackable, which makes me remember back the old days.

Don't think they can strike at Initiative after charging through cover though, at least not without some formation bonuses. Still a massive improvement for a price drop.

 Imateria wrote:
Don't think they can strike at Initiative after charging through cover though, at least not without some formation bonuses. Still a massive improvement for a price drop.

Supposedly there are ways around that with the formations, warlord traits, etc. But yeah by themselves they can't.

Of course with their ambush rule they have a very good, although unreliable, delivery method.

So not a points drop, still 14ppm, but still a boost.

The 'Stealer Cult rules look very interesting, and I'm not going to make any changes to our 'Stealers until I get my book on Saturday and cn play a game or two. It does bring up an interesting new fluff tidbit - apparently the 'Stealers that are in a Cult are better than the ones in a Hive Fleet. the mass-produced ones are given less bio-mass per Stealer (and also they are fresh, the ones in a Cult have had time, sometimes centuries, to grow and adapt).

So we can really choose to go one of two routes - we can mirror the 'Stealer Cult rules as best as possible, or make our own Hive Fleet Stealers that are cheaper, weaker, and easier to spam. Give them a different role to play on the battlefield. Personally my preference would be for that latter - more options is always better (not like you can't just ally in a CAD with a single Patriarch and a bunch of Cult Stealers if you prefer them), and it plays fluffier.

So we keep them like in the official codex... but like 8 points each?

I agree that they should be weaker and cheaper. They're used as shock troops by Tyranid forces. Current nid book statline at 10-12 ppm is reasonable. Perhaps add HNR at that cost, and/or relentless assault.

Make Extended carapace stealers 13-15ppm? That removes their weakness to most ignores cover weapons in the game, while keeping them still at marine costs.

I prefer no stealers in the nid dex at all.

Lictors and Raveners are the nids melee infiltration units with hormagaunts being the bulk of the melee horde in an all out siege of the planet. Stealers role is to subvert the defenses in preparation for the fleets.

I don't think stealers have a place with the nids proper.

Stealers and the brood lord only exist in the nid dex as is because gs cults disappeared. Now that they are back they should be split up again.

 Lance845 wrote:
Stealers and the brood lord only exist in the nid dex as is because gs cults disappeared. Now that they are back they should be split up again.

They have been in every Nid codex, and they don't operate solely in cults. They also operate independently and as part of a Tyranid force. There's no reason to remove them from the Nid codex, although there is reason to differentiate them, as was previously brought up.

 Lance845 wrote:
I prefer no stealers in the nid dex at all.

Lictors and Raveners are the nids melee infiltration units with hormagaunts being the bulk of the melee horde in an all out siege of the planet. Stealers role is to subvert the defenses in preparation for the fleets.

I don't think stealers have a place with the nids proper.

Stealers and the brood lord only exist in the nid dex as is because gs cults disappeared. Now that they are back they should be split up again.

I have to disagree with this, as others have mentioned they've been in literally every 'Nid Codex. Also, Raveners are more surprise shock troops than infiltration units.

From a non-fluff standpoint though it would dramatically change the way people can play the army, for the worse in my opinion. It's nice to be able to play an infiltration list that doesn't have to stay in the Synapse web and plays different than hordes.

...........................................................

I wouldn't be a fan of leaving Genestealers as they are in the current Dex - just at a lower points value - if we go this route. Some token changes seem appropriate. I'd drop the Unwanted Stowaways rule, even if it is fun, and probably drop them to WS5 / T3 / I5 / A2. This would allow a ppm closer to 9-10, making them a good shock troop in between Hormagants and Warriors but retaining a lot of their deadliness in CC. Still a glass hammer but a bit more spammable.

...........................................................

For Raveners:

Serpentine Assault: A unit of Raveners in Reserve may be assigned to follow a Trygon (or Trygon Prime) when it is nominated to form an assault tunnel. The Ravener unit must be placed wholly within 6" of the Trygon (or Trygon Prime) as if it had arrived via Deep Strike, but does not scatter. If the unit cannot be replaced it returns to Reserves. The Red Terror or a Tyranid Prime with the Ravener Body biomorph may join a Ravener unit deploying this way, but not other Characters or Independent Characters.

I don't like the idea of making the Genestealers even weaker than the official versions. There is a quite gap between the Tyranid ones and the GSC ones, couldn't we find some middle point?

10-12 ppm with 1-2 new special rules and the current official statline would be plenty.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
10-12 ppm with 1-2 new special rules and the current official statline would be plenty.

Agreed. Genestealers have all the makings of a pretty solid unit. They have lots of attacks, okay toughness, great initiative, and rending. They're just way too expensive for how quickly they die, and their lack of grenades punishes them for hanging out near lots of terrain.

In my eyes, they should be priced similarly to daemonettes. 'Stealers should have Stealth, 'nettes have invuls. Both do the rending thing. Daemonettes deepstrike where genestealers infiltrate. 'Stealers should probably be right around 10 points base.

'Stealer upgrades are ridiculously expensive for what you get. Scything talons cost an arm and a leg (no pun intended) for a single extra attack. Drop that down to a single point per scything talon, and you have a pretty reasonable deal. Same with the other biomorphs. Genestealers that are kitted out hit pretty hard, but they bleed points too quickly on the way in. Give 'stealers assault grenades (though not necessarily flesh hooks), and you're golden.

I'd be pretty content spending ~100 points for a squad of 10 naked 'stealers with stealth and assault grenades or ~150 points for 10 'stealers with stealth, toxin sacs, adrenal glands, scything talons, and assault grenades. They'd be easy enough to counter with ignores cover weapons or by simply deploying in such a way as to force them to cross open terrain to reach you, but they'd also hit hard enough for their points to force you to deal with them. Or heck, you could even just take 5 'stealers with stealth and grenades for 50 points and have them infiltrate onto objectives. They'll be squishy enough that they probably won't do much damage all game, but they'll also survive well enough (by going to ground) to be a pain to remove while the rest of your army is free to charge up the middle.

 Lance845 wrote:
I prefer no stealers in the nid dex at all.

Lictors and Raveners are the nids melee infiltration units with hormagaunts being the bulk of the melee horde in an all out siege of the planet. Stealers role is to subvert the defenses in preparation for the fleets.

I don't think stealers have a place with the nids proper.

Stealers and the brood lord only exist in the nid dex as is because gs cults disappeared. Now that they are back they should be split up again.

I would not be surprised to see 'Stealers removed from the next Nid dex now that the GSC has returned.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Stealers and the brood lord only exist in the nid dex as is because gs cults disappeared. Now that they are back they should be split up again.

They have been in every Nid codex, and they don't operate solely in cults. They also operate independently and as part of a Tyranid force. There's no reason to remove them from the Nid codex, although there is reason to differentiate them, as was previously brought up.

Harlequins, Inquisition, and Assassins are good enough reasons, in my opinion.

If Genestealers are good enough to be an army on their own, then they should be completely separated out and used as Battle Brother Allies. It will also allow them to be sufficiently powerful without completely overshadowing anything in the same codex as the heavy invasion bugs.

In terms of models, it allows their releases to be separated from the main Hive Mind's releases. That translates to more bug possibilities. Aside from the overall army bloat that 40K is experiencing anyway, I fail to see the problems with completely removing them from the Tyranid codex any more than the above-mentioned Harlequins, Inquisition, and Assassins.

They certainly deserve to be separated more than the Storm Troopers, at least.

I doubt they would be removed. There are plenty of units that are either shared by two or more armies or exist as very similar units with some differences.