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 Capamaru wrote:
In my understanding grav is something given to SM chapters to compensate for the use of D weapons from the other races. Grav is kinda bad rule wise but it seems almost necessary in the current environment to make marines to keep up with more competitive armies, like Eldar or Tau. On the other hand armies like GK are heavily penalized from Grav since it makes short work of everything they bring on the table.

They invented Grav before they allowed StrD weapons in normal 40k

I know it may be succumbing to the power creep a lot, but I feel it'd be nice for, say, Guard to have Str D Deathstrike missiles, and access to grav like the boys in (mostly) blue. Or bikes...

(Sorry, mind the )

 Insectum7 wrote:


Stopped reading because of hyperbole.

We have game designers of a game based on rolled dice that have no understanding of, or at least no regard for, probability.

This is why they are good in producing crud. Because is the current GW design strategy: fling stuff at the wall, and keep what sticks.

I cannot show respect for these people, sorry.

Grav isn't universally effective the way Str D (which Eldar, Tau, and others) is effective. Grav may have a lot of shots and kill 2+ and 3+ well, but going after 4+ and 5+ is a lot harder. The shot count mitigates that a little, but it isn't perfect. When Str D entered the regular game, any argument against Grav went down the drain. Same with super-powered MCs and GCs. Get rid of Riptides, WK, and the like and I will gladly give up Grav.

As for Grav v. Melta, I run both. 5x Combi-Melta for one Sternguard squad, 5x Combi-Grav for the other. I also pack a Melta Bomb on some Scouts and on my Librarian.

As to plasma, if you have swapped your bolter out for grav, you have lost killing power against light infantry. Plasma is however still effective against that target type. It's not all about maximizing effectiveness against x type of target, because generally that minimizes effectiveness against other types of targets. Because you cannot always determine what target you get to shoot at.

This does not apply to units that have bolters on top of grav, naturally.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Grav isn't universally effective the way Str D (which Eldar, Tau, and others) is effective.

Lul, Wut?! Tau? IS you serious?! with the literally 1 platform that requires another mechanic in marker-lights (the most fragile platform) to make them strength D per missile fired? and was introduced in the kayon/last codex not having had it since 6th ed or prior? or vortex missiles or mind powers, or titans, or all that other BS.

For all the talk of marker light fragility, they seem awful hard to get off the table in practice. Especially when I'm losing 1/3 of my list a turn. Anything that gets close to the marker lights gets obliterated instantly.

well for 360 points, for 4 S d shots at bs3, which i had to spend 4 marker lights to make s D which marker light platforms are normally bs3, so that is at least 8 marker light models targeting the same 1 enemy unit, instead of others.

Maybe, Martel, share a battle report, so we can see why you lose all the time? because there are many many posts from you about how bad BA are and how OP ... everyone else is. I'd love to see one and just get an understanding for where you get this from. Because with access to IOM stuff like titans, vortex of doom, thunderhawks, .. BA have access to way more D

 pumaman1 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Grav isn't universally effective the way Str D (which Eldar, Tau, and others) is effective.

Lul, Wut?! Tau? IS you serious?! with the literally 1 platform that requires another mechanic in marker-lights (the most fragile platform) to make them strength D per missile fired? and was introduced in the kayon/last codex not having had it since 6th ed or prior? or vortex missiles or mind powers, or titans, or all that other BS.

Go ahead and count the number of Str D items in the Space Marine codex and get back to me. Don't worry, it won't take long.

Also, between cheap PF teams, Drone formations, and practically every model in the Tau codex having MLs, if you are running completely out of ML before you can fire all of your Destroyer Missiles off, you are doing aomething terribly wrong.

They might not be as agreguous as Eldar, but Tau still have Str D to reliably throw around, and they still have Riptides to make up the difference.

 Saber wrote:

 greatbigtree wrote:
Everyone, please remember, and quote for truth...

Blood Angels are the worst evaaah. Riptides / whatever else is remotely good is the bane of game balance, and as such Grav is not OP. It is a necessity. Bolter Marines are just extra wounds, and everything else is better than a Marine with a bolter, in every way, ever. Ummm.... and only ever take one Power Fist per 5 Death Company, regardless of the relevance of mentioning that.

In this way, you can avoid summoning He-That-Repeats-The-Same-Four-Points in every post, regardless of how unrelated the thread may be. Every time. Every thread.

...

I'm serious. Every. Single. Thread.

I lol'd.

I too lol'd.

 pumaman1 wrote:
well for 360 points, for 4 S d shots at bs3, which i had to spend 4 marker lights to make s D which marker light platforms are normally bs3, so that is at least 8 marker light models targeting the same 1 enemy unit, instead of others.

Maybe, Martel, share a battle report, so we can see why you lose all the time? because there are many many posts from you about how bad BA are and how OP ... everyone else is. I'd love to see one and just get an understanding for where you get this from. Because with access to IOM stuff like titans, vortex of doom, thunderhawks, .. BA have access to way more D

I own no IoM stuff other than BA stuff. Maybe that answers your question right there.

General game play in the best of cases: I get first turn, everything in drop pods dies to interceptor. My stuff moves up and shoots ineffectually because BA. Tau turn: the front 1/3 of my army dies. My turn, move up, shoot ineffectually, try a few assaults, most fail because overwatch, the ones that succeed wipe their target so they can get shot again on the Tau turn. Tau turn: 1/3 more of my list dies; they have moved out of assault range of my remaining forces. Next turn: I shoot ineffectually and fail to get any assaults. Tau turn: I'm tabled.

Martel732 wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:
well for 360 points, for 4 S d shots at bs3, which i had to spend 4 marker lights to make s D which marker light platforms are normally bs3, so that is at least 8 marker light models targeting the same 1 enemy unit, instead of others.

Maybe, Martel, share a battle report, so we can see why you lose all the time? because there are many many posts from you about how bad BA are and how OP ... everyone else is. I'd love to see one and just get an understanding for where you get this from. Because with access to IOM stuff like titans, vortex of doom, thunderhawks, .. BA have access to way more D

I own no IoM stuff other than BA stuff. Maybe that answers your question right there.

General game play in the best of cases: I get first turn, everything in drop pods dies to interceptor. My stuff moves up and shoots ineffectually because BA. Tau turn: the front 1/3 of my army dies. My turn, move up, shoot ineffectually, try a few assaults, most fail because overwatch, the ones that succeed wipe their target so they can get shot again on the Tau turn. Tau turn: 1/3 more of my list dies; they have moved out of assault range of my remaining forces. Next turn: I shoot ineffectually and fail to get any assaults. Tau turn: I'm tabled.

Perhaps an actual battle report? not a hyperbolic battle report. IF everything drop pods died to interceptor, there shouldn't be terribly many quality shots left to shoot in their own turn to wipe out 1/3 your army. I am more than willing to follow to a battle report thread as well. to try and salvage the thread topic as much as possible.

Fair enough. But it's pretty easy to wipe out non-invis marines. You should know this from playing Tau.

As it stands, it doesn't help that BA big thing is melta, and melta is nearly worthless vs Tau. Since we are talking melta and grav.

Gotta respect the interceptor outplay though.

There are so many ways to avoid good interception. The tau (short of the drone formation) also has to intercept with the lack of markerlight support. Meaning you'll get most of your cover saves, shooting at BS3, and the intercepted gets to place the model anyway they want to avoid the lose of their special/heavy weapons. And that's just on the top of my head on the first topic of concern.

Don't forget as pumaman1 mentioned, if you are getting intercepted dead. The tau's turn of shooting becomes extremely limited.

There are always ways to mitigate damage done to you. Even LoS works pretty well when you're a marine with a 3+ sv. SMS will be able to hit you, yes, but it still needs to hit on 4s with rerolls, 3s to wound, and you get a 3+ sv. Also you can't be intercepted out of LOS (period, RAW). There are tournaments that FAQ the BRB ruling.

Battle report or bust.

Or drop pod in and not disembark, so that they intercept the drop pod. Even if it explodes, a lot nice taking s4 ap- hits than s8 ap2 hits. Its open topped, so if it survives (which 50/50 it will versus s8) its open topped so you only lose marginal distance.

Melta being relegated to 12" is probably a bigger factor than i think has been addressed yet. if it was extended to 16" this discussion would be much closer.

You HAVE to disembark from a Drop Pod. They have a rule stating that.

All drones I see are now the formation. It's better than any of my 30 formations :\ The assault from deepstrike at least has some hope against Eldar vs scatbikes and warp spiders Against Tau, it's useless because interceptor.

Fair enough, not having anything like drop pods, i missed that point.
I know there is another thread arguing about drop pod doors, but theoretically model with doors up and block LOS that way.

 pumaman1 wrote:
Fair enough, not having anything like drop pods, i missed that point.
I know there is another thread arguing about drop pod doors, but theoretically model with doors up and block LOS that way.

Yea, but that blocks my LOS as well. And then I have to walk around the bloody thing to get to the Tau, so they end up shooting that unit anyway. Every single movement rule in the game favors shooting lists. It's natural that Tau get a disproportionate advantage from this. I'm aware that Tau can't stop psychically fueled deathstars, but Orks, DE and BA are fresh out of those. At least CSM gets access to the almighty invis.

The bottom line here is that melta is t-totally useless vs Eldar and Tau. That's a huge reason grav is so popular.

Martel732 wrote:
All drones I see are now the formation. It's better than any of my 30 formations :\

Archangels orbital intervention force
You can use: 3 units of the assault or regular terminators
Bonus: all units must be put in reserve and roll together. No reroll.
When the deep strike, regular terminator can fire twice and assault terminator can charge (but count has a disoriented charge)

you shoot in the movement phase the first time, intercept is at the end of the movement phase, you can kill all my intercepting marker lights before then even do anything that turn.. and then anyone who's 5+ did anything or had a 1 to wound gets to charge the ever deadly dudes, and make them take a -ld check and sweep them.. used in conjunction with

Lucifer Armoured Task Force: one Techmarine, 3-5 Predator units (Regular and/or Baals) and 1-3 Land Raiders (Regular, Crusader or Redeemer). Everything gets Scout and all tanks become Fast, including the Land Raiders. Scouting Fast Land Raiders is a phenomenal delivery system for Hammernators. A Baal Pred or a Land Raider Redeemer already halfway up the field turn 1 does nasty, nasty things to infantry... The scout in the deployment doesn't count as a scout move, so you can move 12" in deployment, move 6" disembark 6" (ie enemy's deployment zone) and charge. even if they deploy at the back, i now have too many targets to pick from that are too good at killing all my non-riptides, which leads to a you winning via points, or focusing down the riptides

Without an actual report, I'm assuming your Tau "friend" runs an extremely optimized Tau list. Even so, there are still ways to work around Tau interception. The tau player should never be able to maximize their firepower every singe turn. If that was the case - it would be user error rather than codex creep.

It's hard to get a grasp on what actually - realistically - goes on in a game between you and your Tau opponents without an actual report.

There are ways an optimized BA list can win against an optimized Tau list. I've seen it. It may require some luck and a lot of skill, but optimized versus optimized it is possible.

But I can not disagree with you more when your games are going as you described without a lack of strategy on your part. Maybe you are describing the game with some hyperbole or maybe you are literally throws units directly as them without a care in the world. I honestly think you need to readjust your list if you are struggling this much against a semi-competitive codex (semi referring to how often you see them in top8 in larger tournaments).

Against most Tau weapons, cover does no good because it doesn't penetrate power armor. They just roll up 100 wounds and force saves to failure. For the weapons that DO penetrate armor those conveniently get the marker light buffs. That makes cover 100% useless vs Tau and so movement becomes a trivial exercise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pumaman1 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
All drones I see are now the formation. It's better than any of my 30 formations :\

Archangels orbital intervention force
You can use: 3 units of the assault or regular terminators
Bonus: all units must be put in reserve and roll together. No reroll.
When the deep strike, regular terminator can fire twice and assault terminator can charge (but count has a disoriented charge)

you shoot in the movement phase the first time, intercept is at the end of the movement phase, you can kill all my intercepting marker lights before then even do anything that turn.. and then anyone who's 5+ did anything or had a 1 to wound gets to charge the ever deadly dudes, and make them take a -ld check and sweep them.. used in conjunction with

Lucifer Armoured Task Force: one Techmarine, 3-5 Predator units (Regular and/or Baals) and 1-3 Land Raiders (Regular, Crusader or Redeemer). Everything gets Scout and all tanks become Fast, including the Land Raiders. Scouting Fast Land Raiders is a phenomenal delivery system for Hammernators. A Baal Pred or a Land Raider Redeemer already halfway up the field turn 1 does nasty, nasty things to infantry... The scout in the deployment doesn't count as a scout move, so you can move 12" in deployment, move 6" disembark 6" (ie enemy's deployment zone) and charge. even if they deploy at the back, i now have too many targets to pick from that are too good at killing all my non-riptides, which leads to a you winning via points, or focusing down the riptides

There's nothing to indicate that the orbital intervention force fires during the movement phase. All indications is that interceptor goes first. As it should.

The Chaos Terminator one is the one firing in the Movement phase.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Chaos Terminator one is the one firing in the Movement phase.

AH, thanks. surprisingly time to ally in CSM

And interceptor is defined as at the end of the movement phase, so bombing runs or the swooping hawk special attacks occur first

IMO Grav is more useful than D. Most D weapons are only good against single models, and are only available on a few platforms. Grav is good against both single models and squads, and is available on the core SM unit. Grav is better against MEQs.

D is only really outshines Grav against Superheavy Vehicles, and MCs without an armor save. Said MCs are rare, and Melta covers Superheavy Vehicles well enough.

 Insectum7 wrote:
IMO Grav is more useful than D. Most D weapons are only good against single models, and are only available on a few platforms. Grav is good against both single models and squads, and is available on the core SM unit. Grav is better against MEQs.

D is only really outshines Grav against Superheavy Vehicles, and MCs without an armor save. Said MCs are rare, and Melta covers Superheavy Vehicles well enough.

Generally speaking, it is true. However, things like 3 StrD blast barrage, with ignore cover psychic buff is something much more terrifiying to anything I think.

*30k Player Jumps In*
"Volkite"
*Dashes Away at 200mph to avoid the hate*

But Seriously (In a 10 man Devastator Equilivent terms) 40 S6 AP5 shots at 45" range that Causes more S6 AP5 hits is nothing to sniff at

*The Math* (Assume all 10 man Squads are in Ruins and are in range and havent moved)
VOLKITE
40 shots at BS4 means 13.2 Will miss (Legion Squads Equip every member with a heavy weapon)
26.8 Hits means that 4.466 fail to wound (22.334 Wounds)
Against 3+, 7.444 will fail, Resulting in 7.444 "Deflagrate" Hits
6.204 of those Wound
This results in another 2.068 Marines Dying
Total: 9.512 Kills

GRAV
45 Shots result in 15 misses
30 Hits Result in 20 Wounds
4+ Cover results in 10 Failed Saves
Total: 10 Kills

MELTA
9 Shots Result in 6 Hits
6 Hits Make 5 Wounds
4+ Cover Reduces this to 2.5 Failed Saves
Total: 2.5 Kills

So (With Rounding) Melta Does the Least with only 3 Kills On Average, Grav and Volkite both Beat that with 10 Kills

Against AV12, Volkite gets 4.466 Glances and Grav Gets 5, Melta just Blows up the Vehicle

Volkite is the Handymans version of Grav, High Enough Strength and Number of Shots to Hurt Many Things, and a Good Enough AP (or rule) to not be terrible against GEQs


Good Old Grandpa Volkite shows the Kids who is boss

^Volkite is what? Heavy 4 S6 AP 5 Deflagrate?

Put it up against some Wraithknights, Riptides or heavier vehicles and we'll see if it pulls it's weight.

 commander dante wrote:
*30k Player Jumps In*
"Volkite"
*Dashes Away at 200mph to avoid the hate*

But Seriously (In a 10 man Devastator Equilivent terms) 40 S6 AP5 shots at 45" range that Causes more S6 AP5 hits is nothing to sniff at

*The Math* (Assume all 10 man Squads are in Ruins and are in range and havent moved)
VOLKITE
40 shots at BS4 means 13.2 Will miss (Legion Squads Equip every member with a heavy weapon)
26.8 Hits means that 4.466 fail to wound (22.334 Wounds)
Against 3+, 7.444 will fail, Resulting in 7.444 "Deflagrate" Hits
6.204 of those Wound
This results in another 2.068 Marines Dying
Total: 9.512 Kills

GRAV
45 Shots result in 15 misses
30 Hits Result in 20 Wounds
4+ Cover results in 10 Failed Saves
Total: 10 Kills

MELTA
9 Shots Result in 6 Hits
6 Hits Make 5 Wounds
4+ Cover Reduces this to 2.5 Failed Saves
Total: 2.5 Kills

So (With Rounding) Melta Does the Least with only 3 Kills On Average, Grav and Volkite both Beat that with 10 Kills

Against AV12, Volkite gets 4.466 Glances and Grav Gets 5, Melta just Blows up the Vehicle

Volkite is the Handymans version of Grav, High Enough Strength and Number of Shots to Hurt Many Things, and a Good Enough AP (or rule) to not be terrible against GEQs


Good Old Grandpa Volkite shows the Kids who is boss

It could be partially tangential but.. what, at this point, justifies the "gets hot" on Plasma? In 3rd, when I started, it made sense because in the landscape of the general weaponry, Plasma was pretty powerful. Eldar cheated even then (and Tau, shortly after) but was 1 point less of Str. I digress.

Now... what's the point? Is the fluff? The same fluff that lead those hack frauds to write "gets hot" on the first draft of Hotshot volley guns?

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Volkite is what? Heavy 4 S6 AP 5 Deflagrate?

Put it up against some Wraithknights, Riptides or heavier vehicles and we'll see if it pulls it's weight.

VS Riptide (Nova Charged Shield)

VOLKITE
40 Shots result in 26.667 hits
26.667 hits result in 13.333 Wounds
13.333 Wounds result in 2.222 Failed Saves
This results in 2.222 "Deflagrate" Hits
1.111 of those wound
This results in another 0.185 failed saves

Total=2.407 Wounds

GRAV (Not Moved)
45 Shots Result in 30 Hits
30 hits result in 15 wounds
5 Failed Saves
Total=5 Wounds

GRAV (Moved)
27 Shots Result in 18 Hits
18 Hits result in 6 wounds
6 Wounds Result in 2 Failed Saves
Total=2 Wounds

Plus Volkite has a 45" Range, whereas Grav has only 36"/18" range and lowers its shots if you moved (of which volkite would still outrange Grav by 3 inches even if the Grav Squad had Relentless)