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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Palleus wrote:

 KommissarKiln wrote:
I would at the very least experiment with grav if IG units had access to them (plus the codex needs to catch up to the fluff, in this regard). Not even vehicles or stormtroopers have them at the moment, but it'd be cool to see some sort of artillery chassis with a big ol' grav weapon.

Twin-linked grav cannon mounted on a Leman Russ, anyone?

It's so sad that a TL-Grav Cannon would be the most effective turret option. Especially if they boosted the range to 36".

How about make this "Super Grav Cannon" salvo 5/10?
That might actually bring back a good Leman Russ.

Or we could appropriately cost the LRBT as they are...

So...50? 60 points?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

It could be partially tangential but.. what, at this point, justifies the "gets hot" on Plasma? In 3rd, when I started, it made sense because in the landscape of the general weaponry, Plasma was pretty powerful. Eldar cheated even then (and Tau, shortly after) but was 1 point less of Str. I digress.

Now... what's the point? Is the fluff? The same fluff that lead those hack frauds to write "gets hot" on the first draft of Hotshot volley guns?

Realistically? It's just the fluff. Gets Hot is ridiculously unnecessary and absolutely ridiculous that it still exists on vehicle weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pumaman1 wrote:
well for 360 points, for 4 S d shots at bs3, which i had to spend 4 marker lights to make s D which marker light platforms are normally bs3, so that is at least 8 marker light models targeting the same 1 enemy unit, instead of others.

Maybe, Martel, share a battle report, so we can see why you lose all the time? because there are many many posts from you about how bad BA are and how OP ... everyone else is. I'd love to see one and just get an understanding for where you get this from. Because with access to IOM stuff like titans, vortex of doom, thunderhawks, .. BA have access to way more D

So your argument is that because Blood Angels can ally in things like Titans or someone can drop a huge chunk of money on a really poor quality resin model(Thunderhawk)...

BA have access to more Strength D than Tau, who literally just have to put Markerlights on a target and have a Stormsurge with Destroyer Missiles on the field?

Technically, tau also have access to imperial titans. Just ally one in.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Palleus wrote:

 KommissarKiln wrote:
I would at the very least experiment with grav if IG units had access to them (plus the codex needs to catch up to the fluff, in this regard). Not even vehicles or stormtroopers have them at the moment, but it'd be cool to see some sort of artillery chassis with a big ol' grav weapon.

Twin-linked grav cannon mounted on a Leman Russ, anyone?

It's so sad that a TL-Grav Cannon would be the most effective turret option. Especially if they boosted the range to 36".

How about make this "Super Grav Cannon" salvo 5/10?
That might actually bring back a good Leman Russ.

Or we could appropriately cost the LRBT as they are...

So...50? 60 points?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

It could be partially tangential but.. what, at this point, justifies the "gets hot" on Plasma? In 3rd, when I started, it made sense because in the landscape of the general weaponry, Plasma was pretty powerful. Eldar cheated even then (and Tau, shortly after) but was 1 point less of Str. I digress.

Now... what's the point? Is the fluff? The same fluff that lead those hack frauds to write "gets hot" on the first draft of Hotshot volley guns?

Realistically? It's just the fluff. Gets Hot is ridiculously unnecessary and absolutely ridiculous that it still exists on vehicle weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pumaman1 wrote:
well for 360 points, for 4 S d shots at bs3, which i had to spend 4 marker lights to make s D which marker light platforms are normally bs3, so that is at least 8 marker light models targeting the same 1 enemy unit, instead of others.

Maybe, Martel, share a battle report, so we can see why you lose all the time? because there are many many posts from you about how bad BA are and how OP ... everyone else is. I'd love to see one and just get an understanding for where you get this from. Because with access to IOM stuff like titans, vortex of doom, thunderhawks, .. BA have access to way more D

So your argument is that because Blood Angels can ally in things like Titans or someone can drop a huge chunk of money on a really poor quality resin model(Thunderhawk)...

BA have access to more Strength D than Tau, who literally just have to put Markerlights on a target and have a Stormsurge with Destroyer Missiles on the field?

I was thinking 120 for the basic Russ and adding back Lumbering Behemoth on top of that and working from there to see how people feel.

I still think 120 is too much, given the fact that it has no real save possibilities.

110 sounds about right for the barebones Russ.

 commander dante wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Volkite is what? Heavy 4 S6 AP 5 Deflagrate?

Put it up against some Wraithknights, Riptides or heavier vehicles and we'll see if it pulls it's weight.

VS Riptide (Nova Charged Shield)

GRAV (Not Moved)
45 Shots Result in 30 Hits
30 hits result in 15 wounds
5 Failed Saves
Total=5 Wounds

GRAV (Moved)
27 Shots Result in 18 Hits
18 Hits result in 6 wounds
6 Wounds Result in 2 Failed Saves
Total=2 Wounds

Plus Volkite has a 45" Range, whereas Grav has only 36"/18" range and lowers its shots if you moved (of which volkite would still outrange Grav by 3 inches even if the Grav Squad had Relentless)

Did you EVEN TRY to do the math???? It's totally wrong, in all the possible ways! Oh god, it's... how could you mess up so much? Like seriously, you didn't even get the wounding ratios to coincide between the two cases. Can you explain me how you go from wounding 2/3 of the hits to 1/3 of the hits just by moving??

The math would go the following way:

They make 40 shots (remember, you only can have 4 heavy wepons per squad) of grav cannons BUT 10 will be at BS5 (you didn't factor the signum at all), 30 at BS4 AND they'll re-roll failed to hit rolls as per the armorium cherub's special ability or the devastator doctrine from the ultras or the demi-company (so they can re-roll thrice). Also, grav-cannons have grav-amps as standard, they re-roll to wounds so that means that in your previous example you unintentionally lowered the damage output from the grav-marines (assuming the number of shots you said is the same) by a third (they'd have scored 13,35 wounds in that case, so it's a notable difference)

Thus it would be like this (against nova-charged riptide, no stimulant injector):

Grav (not moved)

40 shots roughly become 36.4 hits (10x0,972+32x0.89)
36.4 hits become 35.39 wounds, because they wound based on armor AND they re-roll to wound, so they have a 2+ re-rollable to wound the riptide.
That translates into a whooping 11.79 wounds unsaved, which I think is almost enough to slaughter a triptide (they were four wounds, weren't they?)

Grav (moved)

24 shots result in 21.882 hits
21.882 hits result in 21.38 wounds.
7.05 unsaved wounds, enough to kill a single ripitide in a round of shooting, which is curiously almost the same cost as one of the squads.

Also Grav cannons are 24''/12'' but it wouldn't matter if you take them in a skyhammer (which honestly, you SHOULD) because they'll be relentless AND they'll be right close to the target. So taking into account the inherent synergies of their codex and proper special rules, they'd utterly outdo the other guys.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Realistically? It's just the fluff. Gets Hot is ridiculously unnecessary and absolutely ridiculous that it still exists on vehicle weapons.

IIRC, gets hot on vehicles it was reintroduced in 6th, in 5th vehicles had cooling systems or something; am I wrong?

BTW, shortly thereafter the re-introduction of vehicles with gets hot, they introduced a Dark Angels flyer with few HP and a plasma weapon.

Is clear more than ever that the Hack Frauds (I will use capital letters) either do not playtest, or develop stuff independently and do not cross-check what the other """"designers"""" are doing.

Lord Kragan wrote:

 commander dante wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Volkite is what? Heavy 4 S6 AP 5 Deflagrate?

Put it up against some Wraithknights, Riptides or heavier vehicles and we'll see if it pulls it's weight.

VS Riptide (Nova Charged Shield)

GRAV (Not Moved)
45 Shots Result in 30 Hits
30 hits result in 15 wounds
5 Failed Saves
Total=5 Wounds

GRAV (Moved)
27 Shots Result in 18 Hits
18 Hits result in 6 wounds
6 Wounds Result in 2 Failed Saves
Total=2 Wounds

Plus Volkite has a 45" Range, whereas Grav has only 36"/18" range and lowers its shots if you moved (of which volkite would still outrange Grav by 3 inches even if the Grav Squad had Relentless)

Did you EVEN TRY to do the math???? It's totally wrong, in all the possible ways! Oh god, it's... how could you mess up so much? Like seriously, you didn't even get the wounding ratios to coincide between the two cases. Can you explain me how you go from wounding 2/3 of the hits to 1/3 of the hits just by moving??

The math would go the following way:

They make 40 shots (remember, you only can have 4 heavy wepons per squad) of grav cannons BUT 10 will be at BS5 (you didn't factor the signum at all), 30 at BS4 AND they'll re-roll failed to hit rolls as per the armorium cherub's special ability or the devastator doctrine from the ultras or the demi-company (so they can re-roll thrice). Also, grav-cannons have grav-amps as standard, they re-roll to wounds so that means that in your previous example you unintentionally lowered the damage output from the grav-marines (assuming the number of shots you said is the same) by a third (they'd have scored 13,35 wounds in that case, so it's a notable difference)

Thus it would be like this (against nova-charged riptide, no stimulant injector):

Grav (not moved)

40 shots roughly become 36.4 hits (10x0,972+32x0.89)
36.4 hits become 35.39 wounds, because they wound based on armor AND they re-roll to wound, so they have a 2+ re-rollable to wound the riptide.
That translates into a whooping 11.79 wounds unsaved, which I think is almost enough to slaughter a triptide (they were four wounds, weren't they?)

Grav (moved)

24 shots result in 21.882 hits
21.882 hits result in 21.38 wounds.
7.05 unsaved wounds, enough to kill a single ripitide in a round of shooting, which is curiously almost the same cost as one of the squads.

Also Grav cannons are 24''/12'' but it wouldn't matter if you take them in a skyhammer (which honestly, you SHOULD) because they'll be relentless AND they'll be right close to the target. So taking into account the inherent synergies of their codex and proper special rules, they'd utterly outdo the other guys.

To top it off I'd also mention that the presence of Grav will basically force the Riptide to Nova it's shield, whereas the Volkites will not, leaving the Riptide free to overcharge his weapons instead. Grav also has Concussive, making an unkilled Riptide I 1 in combat, which is occasionally useful. If you run the numbers vs. a Wraithknight, Grav will pull even further ahead (Volkites are wounding on 6's, Gravs on 3 and re-rolling.) Grav can (and will) hurt a Land Raider, Volkite can't touch it.

There's no contest, it's Grav Cannons all day every day from a competitive standpoint. Volkites are a nifty Heavy Bolter. They're great against light/medium vehicles and medium troops in cover, but they just can't handle the heavier hitters nearly as well as Grav.

TBH, there's also the chance the riptide won't be able to shield itself, as we may get first turn and/or he may fail the nova reactor. That scenario he described has a 1/6 chance of happening.

Lord Kragan wrote:
TBH, there's also the chance the riptide won't be able to shield itself, as we may get first turn and/or he may fail the nova reactor. That scenario he described has a 1/6 chance of happening.

Riptides that fail Nova die to grav pretty readily. They go from soaking 78% of wounds to only 55%.

 commander dante wrote:


Against AV12, Volkite gets 4.466 Glances and Grav Gets 5, Melta just Blows up the Vehicle

Volkite is the Handymans version of Grav, High Enough Strength and Number of Shots to Hurt Many Things, and a Good Enough AP (or rule) to not be terrible against GEQs


Good Old Grandpa Volkite shows the Kids who is boss

Also, it grav doesn't glance, it immobilizes. That is huge because that means that, assuming we shoot at wave serpent squadron or a 3-vehicle squadron with 3hp, we are dealing 7HP's (1 from immobilized and 2 from the following one). Also, doing 1hp is a bigger deal than the volkite as it can stop that vehicle on its tracks. And don't get me started against AV13/AV14 or flare shields.

Sooo, come again, who's boss???

Lord Kragan wrote:
TBH, there's also the chance the riptide won't be able to shield itself, as we may get first turn and/or he may fail the nova reactor. That scenario he described has a 1/6 chance of happening.

1/3, on a roll of 1 or 2, no saves allowed.

 pumaman1 wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:
TBH, there's also the chance the riptide won't be able to shield itself, as we may get first turn and/or he may fail the nova reactor. That scenario he described has a 1/6 chance of happening.

1/3, on a roll of 1 or 2, no saves allowed.

He might have been assuming it was a Riptide from the Riptidewing formation. Quick math says its 1/3 of failing with another 1/3 of failing - due to the reroll failed attempts. I'm assuming that's how he got the 1/6.

The real math is 1/3 chance of failing and another 1/3 off of the original 1/3 chance of failing. Or more simply 1/9 (11% fail rate, 89% success rate)

Lord Kragan wrote:

 commander dante wrote:


Against AV12, Volkite gets 4.466 Glances and Grav Gets 5, Melta just Blows up the Vehicle

Volkite is the Handymans version of Grav, High Enough Strength and Number of Shots to Hurt Many Things, and a Good Enough AP (or rule) to not be terrible against GEQs


Good Old Grandpa Volkite shows the Kids who is boss

Also, it grav doesn't glance, it immobilizes. That is huge because that means that, assuming we shoot at wave serpent squadron or a 3-vehicle squadron with 3hp, we are dealing 7HP's (1 from immobilized and 2 from the following one). Also, doing 1hp is a bigger deal than the volkite as it can stop that vehicle on its tracks. And don't get me started against AV13/AV14 or flare shields.

Sooo, come again, who's boss???

Volkite
10 in 1 Squad

Grav can only have a Max of 5...

 commander dante wrote:

Volkite
10 in 1 Squad

Grav can only have a Max of 5...

IMO that's a liability, not an advantage. Every casualty you take is going to cost you points and damage output. How much does does a full Volkite cost anyways?

Edit: Devastators also max at 4. What are you using for reference?

 Insectum7 wrote:

 commander dante wrote:

Volkite
10 in 1 Squad

Grav can only have a Max of 5...

IMO that's a liability, not an advantage. Every casualty you take is going to cost you points and damage output. How much does does a full Volkite cost anyways?

Edit: Devastators also max at 4. What are you using for reference?

Sorry, my bad
Due to how Heavy Support Squads work, i assume the Sgt takes a heavy weapon as well

A Full Volkite Squad costs 335
If all 10 men of a Devastator squad could take 10 Grav Cannons, it would cost 490 points

2 Devastator Squads with 4 Grav Cannons each (5 men) costs 420 points

Plus Heavy Support Squad sgts can take Artificer Armour for 10 points, to tank weak arms fire/AP3 Weapons (Every HH player hates it) and can take Hardened Armour, allowing them to reroll failed saves VS Blast and Template Weapons for 25 points and counts as void hardened in Zone Mortalis
So in total they cost 370 points and are more survivable than Devastators

I like having mathematical statistics to look at, even if it involves weaponry not really relevant to me. However, seeing as this is the "Big melta vs grav debate," how would the weapons fare against a unit such as an Imperial Knight? Statistically speaking, is melta or grav more dangerous to an IK? When the weapons are in optimal conditions (close range for meltas, stationary for grav)? What about in suboptimal conditions? Which is more points effective for this particular purpose? If I knew the numbers, I'd go do the math myself, but I'm not familiar with IK or grav stats. Let's go get some data.

Melta is much better vs IK, because IK ignore immobilized.

You need nine BS 4 grav gun shots to generate a single hull point BEFORE the ion shield. The grav cannon fares better, only needing five BS 4 grav cannon shots to generate a single hull point.

A BS 4 melta shot strips 0.55 base hull points, plus another 0.32 from explodes results for a total of 0.87 per melta shot. So it is roughly one hp per melta shot, or about the same damage as the five grav cannon shots.

 commander dante wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 commander dante wrote:

Volkite
10 in 1 Squad

Grav can only have a Max of 5...

IMO that's a liability, not an advantage. Every casualty you take is going to cost you points and damage output. How much does does a full Volkite cost anyways?

Edit: Devastators also max at 4. What are you using for reference?

Sorry, my bad
Due to how Heavy Support Squads work, i assume the Sgt takes a heavy weapon as well

A Full Volkite Squad costs 335
If all 10 men of a Devastator squad could take 10 Grav Cannons, it would cost 490 points

2 Devastator Squads with 4 Grav Cannons each (5 men) costs 420 points

Plus Heavy Support Squad sgts can take Artificer Armour for 10 points, to tank weak arms fire/AP3 Weapons (Every HH player hates it) and can take Hardened Armour, allowing them to reroll failed saves VS Blast and Template Weapons for 25 points and counts as void hardened in Zone Mortalis
So in total they cost 370 points and are more survivable than Devastators

I'd rather just have the single ten man Deavstator unit with 4 Cannons for 280, plus a Drop Pod (potentially free Pod, or potentially Relentless on arrival.) It's more flexible (can Combat Squad against lighter armies and engage heavier targets like 13+ armor, 2+ armor and T8 WKs), more mobile (Pod), more resilient (Can take casualties before main guns are affected) and costs less.

There just is something not right about spending 370 for ten Power armored guys who can't damage an Imperial Knight from the front, and would struggle against a Wraithknight. The targets that Grav is not good against tend to be targets that Bolters are effective against, whereas if you're taking Volkites you still have to bring additional options in order to handle tougher targets.

 pumaman1 wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:
TBH, there's also the chance the riptide won't be able to shield itself, as we may get first turn and/or he may fail the nova reactor. That scenario he described has a 1/6 chance of happening.

1/3, on a roll of 1 or 2, no saves allowed.

Errr, no, I mixed up: it's actually 66% chance: half the time we go first and the riptide DIES, and out of that other half we get a 33% chance of not working up. So 66% of the riptide NOT getting the shield pumped.

BA and DA really can't kill a Riptide turn 1, even with no shield.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 commander dante wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 commander dante wrote:

Volkite
10 in 1 Squad

Grav can only have a Max of 5...

IMO that's a liability, not an advantage. Every casualty you take is going to cost you points and damage output. How much does does a full Volkite cost anyways?

Edit: Devastators also max at 4. What are you using for reference?

Sorry, my bad
Due to how Heavy Support Squads work, i assume the Sgt takes a heavy weapon as well

A Full Volkite Squad costs 335
If all 10 men of a Devastator squad could take 10 Grav Cannons, it would cost 490 points

2 Devastator Squads with 4 Grav Cannons each (5 men) costs 420 points

Plus Heavy Support Squad sgts can take Artificer Armour for 10 points, to tank weak arms fire/AP3 Weapons (Every HH player hates it) and can take Hardened Armour, allowing them to reroll failed saves VS Blast and Template Weapons for 25 points and counts as void hardened in Zone Mortalis
So in total they cost 370 points and are more survivable than Devastators

I'd rather just have the single ten man Deavstator unit with 4 Cannons for 280, plus a Drop Pod (potentially free Pod, or potentially Relentless on arrival.) It's more flexible (can Combat Squad against lighter armies and engage heavier targets like 13+ armor, 2+ armor and T8 WKs), more mobile (Pod), more resilient (Can take casualties before main guns are affected) and costs less.

There just is something not right about spending 370 for ten Power armored guys who can't damage an Imperial Knight from the front, and would struggle against a Wraithknight. The targets that Grav is not good against tend to be targets that Bolters are effective against, whereas if you're taking Volkites you still have to bring additional options in order to handle tougher targets.

Yeah but its heresy, we get S8+ Weapons by the Shedload (and AP3/2/1 By the Shedload as well)
Plus Shedloads of Rad Weaponry, which Lowers Toughness

Martel732 wrote:
BA and DA really can't kill a Riptide turn 1, even with no shield.

Don't see why not, we''ve devastators with grav-cannons.

You can't get close enough without moving.

Martel732 wrote:
You can't get close enough without moving.

Electrodisplacement. Attach a Librarian to your Devastators. Use some Scouts to get into position, then use Electrodisplacement to swap their positions. Electrodisplacement makea no mention of counting as moving, so your Grav Cannon Devastators will count as being stationary. Fire all 20 Grav Cannon+Grav Amp shots at the intended target.

All for the low price of a Librarian and some Scouts on top of your Devastator Squad. Hardly a cheap strategy. :( Especially since it isn't even remotely guaranteed to go off.

You aren't even likely to get that power.

Martel732 wrote:
You can't get close enough without moving.

Drop pods. If I go 1st and with a cherub he'll net a 5.88 wounds assuming stimulant injectors and no cover. So that's a dead riptide on turn 1.

I guess with 4 grav cannons that's true.

Martel732 wrote:
I guess with 4 grav cannons that's true.

and honestly it comes a bit cheaper than the riptide, even. If we get them a libbi for a relentless on biomancy we ensure the kill and maybe survival.

Martel732 wrote:
You aren't even likely to get that power.

Which is exactly my point.

As for Drop Pods, does a model that arrives on a Drop Pod count as having moved that turn?

Also, Lord Krogan, a squad of Devs with four Grav Cannons costs 210 pts, 245 pts with a Drop Pod. Not at all cheaper than a Riptide.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You aren't even likely to get that power.

Which is exactly my point.

As for Drop Pods, does a model that arrives on a Drop Pod count as having moved that turn?

Also, Lord Krogan, a squad of Devs with four Grav Cannons costs 210 pts, 245 pts with a Drop Pod. Not at all cheaper than a Riptide.

Isn't a riptide with stims like 255? Nevertheless they make their points back in a round shooting AND divert enemy shooting in the backfield.