Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

He made his bed.

I love that he says I can't read, but his entire series of ranty posts was defending proportions when my only issue was the scale according to the pics. Proportions are great, I pledged because it looks good not the opposite lol!

PS Dougie, like it or not, there is a sliding scale for what defines 35... 7.5 head, 8 head, 8.5 head, measure to the eye, measure to the top of the head. Lots of ways lots of companies define it. So there is room for misinterpretation there whether you like it or not. You seem like a reasonable fellow. Judge only rules in his own favor though me thinks.


I demanded that Kabuki refund me for publically alleging I am an agent or saboteur from another KS based only on the fact there is someone named Tom F involved. My last name does not start with F.

The Killbox guy is Tom Frank.

Although he is only listed as Tom F on the KBG site, one can easily google some of the names of the games he's been involved with listed in his bio and figure it out.

 Buzzsaw wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
"So, while strictly speaking you may be correct on the exact spec measurements with a caliper, "
Yes, it is a scale model. a 1/50 scale model, 35mm to the eye. 1/50 is 1 centimeter = 0.5 meters. So 3.5 centimeters to the eye is 1.75 meters, or about 69 inches, or about 5' 9" to the eye. Eye height is typically 93% of total height of a human. End result: 1/50 scale man with an eye height of 35mm means he is roughly 74 inches tall - or 6 feet, 2 inches tall.

So I tried to find a good source for jd's assertions here, and came up with a fairly good looking chart originally linked on the Reaper forums;

Spoiler:

According to this figure, a 5'9" man is 35 mm to the eyes in 1/47 scale, and 35 mm to the crown in 1/50 scale. Since Kabuki explicitly refers to "Death Dealer I in 1/50 (35mm) scale" this would set him as fairly tall... but more on the implications in a moment.

Hey Buzzsaw, thanks for continuing the actual discussion of scale instead of resorting to acting like a child.

Actually, that is a very useful chart.

I was basing my numbers solely on the math. I based my scale entirely on Kabuki's image:
Kabuki has stated the model is in 1/50 scale. 1/50 is 1 cm = 0.5 meters.
The image they showed is the model scaled 35mm to the eye. A 1/50 scale model, at 35mm to the eye, would be 1.75 meters to the eye. (1 cm = 0.5 meters, 2cm = 1 meters, 3 cm = 1.5 meters, 3.5 cm = 1.75 meters)

Now, I was using the 93% relative eye height to head height from numbers I've been familiar with - that was purely an assumption based on my part. But I went ahead and googled some anthropometric sources. One document showed an average eye height of 68.6 inches against a height of 72.8 inches (94% ratio). I'll even use the 94% as it would mean a smaller human, for the purposes of acquiescing to the scale argument.

The math is 1.75 meters (to the eye) / 0.94 = height of model to crown. That is 1.862 meters. That gives us 6 feet, 1 inch tall for the Death Dealer at 35mm to the eye for 1/50 scale using a 94% eye to height ratio.

 Buzzsaw wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
(On top of that, the Death Dealer is hunched over on a relatively small horse, and not riding a massive GW monster with arms flailing and mouth agape.)

Again, from the internet, the following image that purports to list the heights of horse breeds;

Spoiler:

Here I throw myself on the charity of those that can measure accurately on their screens, but as I rough it on my screen, the horse in Kabuki's image seems to be about 12 hands high... which genuinely makes it a pony.

I don't agree on 12 hands. From feet to withers it seems to be roughly 30mm. That would be 1.5 meters at 1/50 scale, or 59 inches, or 14.75hh tall.
I don't have calipers on me in my office at work, but even saying the horse is smaller at 28mm from feet to withers, that's 1.4 meters at 1/50 scale, or 55 inches, or 13.75hh tall.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MajorTom11 wrote:
Ok, JudgeDoug you are just a sheep so I forgive you

Are you serious, dude? I'm sheep because I am using math to determine the height of a scale model?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MajorTom11 wrote:
PS Dougie, like it or not, there is a sliding scale for what defines 35...

Sigh. A model that is 35mm to the eye at 1/50 scale would be, as mathematically demonstrated, a man 6'1 or 6'2 (depending on eye height to crown height ratio of 94 or 93%) Like I literally cannot comprehend what you are saying anymore, other than trying to belittle me because you have no argument.
If my math is wrong, then I'll gladly admit that I am wrong!

I don't agree on 12 hands. From feet to withers it seems to be roughly 30mm. That would be 1.5 meters at 1/50 scale, or 59 inches, or 14.75hh tall.
I don't have calipers on me in my office at work, but even saying the horse is smaller at 28mm from feet to withers, that's 1.4 meters at 1/50 scale, or 55 inches, or 13.75hh tall.

That still makes it an incredibly small horse, and technically almost a pony (the threshold is 14.2hh, or 14.5 in decimal.) It just doesn't fit thematically with the whole concept.

So as to hopefully not derail the thread TOO much more...

Doug, - I think Tom was more upset at your buying into Kabuiki's rather bizarre statement:

"MajorTom11" is a direct competitor of Kabuki Studio yeah he's owner of Killbox Games a Canadian company who wanted to manufacture a range of miniatures derived from Frazetta artwork, needless to say that the comparison between those models and ours is....well see by yourself if you want and i don't think their KS campaign is going so well so that guy wanted to vent his frustration on Kabuki Studio.
Indeed what he wrote makes little sense if not tease me and then claim to be offended.
When you're not able to compete in a fair way better to bad advertise"

as fact without actually finding out for sure?

 Azreal13 wrote:

I don't agree on 12 hands. From feet to withers it seems to be roughly 30mm. That would be 1.5 meters at 1/50 scale, or 59 inches, or 14.75hh tall.
I don't have calipers on me in my office at work, but even saying the horse is smaller at 28mm from feet to withers, that's 1.4 meters at 1/50 scale, or 55 inches, or 13.75hh tall.

That still makes it an incredibly small horse, and technically almost a pony (the threshold is 14.2hh, or 14.5 in decimal.) It just doesn't fit thematically with the whole concept.

Admittedly I am not familiar with horses at all, but based on the picture that Buzzsaw posted, wouldn't that make it a Haflinger or Arabian?

I'm also having trouble finding any official sources for how tall Frazetta painted Death Dealer to be. Is he supposed to be a 6'1 or 6'2 guy as the math of Kabuki's model shows? Or is he supposed to be a 7' monstrosity?
edit: I found some comic book site that says he's 6'3 but that would appear to just be their guess.

@Doug, sheep for spouting conspiracy theories.

You estimation of scale is perfectly legitimate. My point is, other people's method of estimation are also perfectly legitimate. Hence the problem. Your issue seems to be that you are having a hard time dealing with the fact that other people use different methodologies to you? It's hard when people don't agree with you 100% 100% of the time, I know. Power through brother.


Update, Kabuki has agreed to refund me and retract their allegation that I am another Tom who lives in another Province with another last name.

If they follow through I will wash my hands of this. The whole thing is a giant shame to me. I was a supporter. I was a customer. I was also genuinely trying to help them avoid precisely this kid of scenario. Ah well. I will with them luck in the future and leave it at that if they are honorable regarding their pledge to walk away as well.

Well, congrats on that Tom!

 MajorTom11 wrote:
@Doug, sheep for spouting conspiracy theories.

You estimation of scale is perfectly legitimate. My point is, other people's method of estimation are also perfectly legitimate. Hence the problem. Your issue seems to be that you are having a hard time dealing with the fact that other people use different methodologies to you? It's hard when people don't agree with you 100% 100% of the time, I know. Power through brother.

I know you're having a difficult time, man, but once again, I said "is this true?" NOT "this is true!" And it turned out to not be true, and all was well with the world. Why do you keep acting so defensively? I'm not even pinging your posts for "being impolite" and violating the rules on Dakka (diminutive nicknames / name-calling) because you're obviously feeling offended that I've pointed out your incorrect assertions, especially this one: "however, there is 35mm, and then there is the 35mm accepted as industry standard. Now you can argue here that there is no 'true' industry standard or whatnot but I think you know that generally people accept the heroic scale to represent more people's size expectations than art scale."

Dude, the problem is that, unless the math is wrong, it is not an "estimation of scale". We have a model that is 35mm to the eye, declared at 1/50 scale. Simple math provides the numbers. It is not my estimation of scale. It is the universe's law. That's how math works!

Other people can certainly use different methodologies! They can certainly form their own opinion! But when it comes to straight up math, a differing opinion is just a wrong opinion. Sure, you may think a model that is 35mm to the eye should, I don't know, actually be 40mm to the eye? That your millimeters are slightly longer than millimeters in the real world? That is certainly a different methodology, but it is wrong, mathematically.

 judgedoug wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

I don't agree on 12 hands. From feet to withers it seems to be roughly 30mm. That would be 1.5 meters at 1/50 scale, or 59 inches, or 14.75hh tall.
I don't have calipers on me in my office at work, but even saying the horse is smaller at 28mm from feet to withers, that's 1.4 meters at 1/50 scale, or 55 inches, or 13.75hh tall.

That still makes it an incredibly small horse, and technically almost a pony (the threshold is 14.2hh, or 14.5 in decimal.) It just doesn't fit thematically with the whole concept.

Admittedly I am not familiar with horses at all, but based on the picture that Buzzsaw posted, wouldn't that make it a Haflinger or Arabian?
.

No, they're breeds. Saying "my horse is 14.3hh so it's Arabian" is somewhat akin to saying "my dog is 50cm tall so it's a Labrador."

Horses can be confusing as they can be described as much as a type as they can a breed, so an Arabian can technically be a horse or a pony depending on its height, but you'd generally find them referred to as horses because Arabians are a "horse breed" even if their height span crosses down into what are technically pony heights. Equally something like a Dartmoor is considered a pony, even if a large stallion might just about cross into horse territory.

The physical characteristics of the horse in the painting lean more towards something like a Clydesdale or a similar 'heavy' breed. They'd seldom be less than 16hh and frequently extend past 17hh. Equally, while matching a horse to a rider is more about how capable the horse is of carrying the weight, it would be a rare animal that could comfortably carry a 6'+ man and still be less than 16hh.

Edit

Here's the worlds tallest horse


He's a Clydesdale. While I'm sure the height is much taller than in the painting, note the musculature, short, thick neck, feathering around the hooves and general overall body shape.

Compared to an Arab


Note the much lighter musculature, the distinctive arced neck and dished face, the thinner legs without feathering, and generally more delicate impression it creates.

 Azreal13 wrote:
No, they're breeds. Saying "my horse is 14.3hh so it's Arabian" is somewhat akin to saying "my dog is 50cm tall so it's a Labrador."

Horses can be confusing as they can be described as much as a type as they can a breed, so an Arabian can technically be a horse or a pony depending on its height, but you'd generally find them referred to as horses because Arabians are a "horse breed" even if their height span crosses down into what are technically pony heights. Equally something like a Dartmoor is considered a pony, even if a large stallion might just about cross into horse territory.

The physical characteristics of the horse in the painting lean more towards something like a Clydesdale or a similar 'heavy' breed. They'd seldom be less than 16hh and frequently extend past 17hh. Equally, while matching a horse to a rider is more about how capable the horse is of carrying the weight, it would be a rare animal that could comfortably carry a 6'+ man and still be less than 16hh.

Ahh, gotcha! I agree it looks like a Clydesdale, so I went ahead and sent a pic of Death Dealer to a coworker who owns horses. She said it looks like a european Percheron. Of course, that's entirely anecdotal. I still don't know what Frazetta intended the horse to be. Wikipedia shows modern Percherons to be 16 to 18hh, but pre-17th century to be smaller ("During the 17th century, horses from Perche, the ancestors of the current Percheron, were smaller, standing between 15 and 16 hands").

Now, this is where we get to the actual specifics of intent. How tall did Frazetta intend Death Dealer to be? Was he familiar enough with horses to scale DD's horse properly (or did he just look at a Clydesdale or Percheron and think it matched, and painted it?)
Mathematically we have a 6'1 or 6'2 man in miniature. If DD is supposed be to 7' and that's an 18hh horse, then Kabuki's model is too small for 1/50 scale. (Of course, maybe Frazetta played a giant joke on us and he's 5'2 on a 10hh pony)

edit: still trying to find any reference to DD's height other than the 6'3 on a comic book page. http://www.writeups.org/death-dealer-frazetta-character-profile/

Ping away Doug. If I was being impolite you would know it.

Anyways, if you can't already figure out why you are antagonising people I can't help you brother...

That being said, while I don't think I am being impolite, what you said or didn't say at this point is off-topic indeed, so I will stop feeding into it. That's rule #2 btw.

The Kabuki issue, assuming they are true to their word, is put to bed.

I do honestly think though the absence of 'industry standards' for measurement is surely worth discussing for us customers, and certainly, the more you know about the variety of individual standards used all over the place are worth knowing about. And addressing, for the benefit of both buyer and seller.

Another note, I cannot figure out how there is another identical KS for a diff company after this one was already funded... just makes no business sense to me, and is Frazetta just licensing this out to anyone? No exclusivity? Or is it public domain or something?

 MajorTom11 wrote:
I do honestly think though the absence of 'industry standards' for measurement is surely worth discussing for us customers, and certainly, the more you know about the variety of individual standards used all over the place are worth knowing about. And addressing, for the benefit of both buyer and seller.

Now that is something we can definitely agree on. And obviously for different people, "scale" means different things, _especially_ for miniatures wargames, where "28mm" models can even include models up to 36mm or larger, which is rather absurd. I wish companies would just use 1/56, 1/50, 1/48, etc, and then "heroic" maybe signifying big heads, shortened waist, and big hands. When a company uses an actual scale, such as 1/48, then there's no argument about what it _should_ be.

 MajorTom11 wrote:
Another note, I cannot figure out how there is another identical KS for a diff company after this one was already funded... just makes no business sense to me, and is Frazetta just licensing this out to anyone? No exclusivity? Or is it public domain or something?

I cannot stand the sculpt on Killbox's DD, the face looks really dumb. Like a Gary Morley Chaos Champion from 5th edition (I can even imagine him painted with bright red accents)
There's tons of other DD merchandise, statues, figurines, chess pieces, etc, so I'm guessing Frazetta loves those licensing checks.

@Doug I am glad we agree, genuinely. That topic really is the key takeaway I think that people should be aware of.

I really don't see the point of doing a KS for a product just KS'd that is 'identical'... Why would you think that was a good idea? 'Let's enter a freshly leveraged market that has recently been harvested with the same product, it will be great!'

Anyways, agree, the Kabuki sculpt looks better to me, I can be honest enough to admit that despite this weird, weird, weird drama.

I was leaning more towards Fresian



But, much like dogs, horses can be bred across breeds to alter characteristics (famously Thoroughbreds are all descended from the same handful of Arabian stallions.) But the Percheron fits just as well, and there's real variety in terms of size and shape amongst individual horses.

I agree it comes down to intent (and expectation) and Kabuki have clearly taken a different tack than I would have in terms of interpreting the images. I'd have erred on the side of larger than life for the character (and consequently his mount) given the subject, but Kabuki seem to have gone for more modest dimensions.

It is precisely this divergence between expectations which caused my disappointment in the size in the first place, and that could easily have been managed. Something which Tom had the "temerity" to point out to them and sparked this whole cluster feth.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MajorTom11 wrote:Another note, I cannot figure out how there is another identical KS for a diff company after this one was already funded... just makes no business sense to me, and is Frazetta just licensing this out to anyone? No exclusivity? Or is it public domain or something?

After his death, there was a dispute amongst his children about who owned the rights etc.. That was resolved sometime recently, so I'm guessing it's making up for lost time.

He has three granddaughters IIRC who have control over his works.

Isn't part of the problem here that Death Dealer is not sitting his horse in a plausible way, anyway? His feet are way too far forward, as are his knees. The horse would have to be incredibly thin. It's just not how you sit a horse. If your starting point is a fantastic, but anatomically and ergonomically implausible, painting, it's really no surprise that the miniature also looks off.

It's a bit like what happens if you are trying to lay a tiled floor and you get the first row slightly wrong... the 17th row at the other end of the kitchen looks much worse!

 BrookM wrote:
He has three granddaughters IIRC who have control over his works.

This came up while the campaign was still running, and some chancer wrote this..

 Azreal13 wrote:

Wikipedia wrote:After siblings Billy Frazetta, Holly Frazetta Taylor, and Heidi Grabin filed a lawsuit against Frank Jr. in March 2010, claiming misappropriation of their father's work, which they said the artist had transferred to a company controlled by those three, the family issued a statement on April 23, 2010, that said, "all of the litigation surrounding his family and his art has been resolved. All of Frank's children will now be working together as a team to promote his ... collection of images....

Looks like it has sorted itself out.

I stand corrected.

 judgedoug wrote:
...

I was basing my numbers solely on the math. I based my scale entirely on Kabuki's image:
Kabuki has stated the model is in 1/50 scale. 1/50 is 1 cm = 0.5 meters.
The image they showed is the model scaled 35mm to the eye. A 1/50 scale model, at 35mm to the eye, would be 1.75 meters to the eye. (1 cm = 0.5 meters, 2cm = 1 meters, 3 cm = 1.5 meters, 3.5 cm = 1.75 meters)
...

 Buzzsaw wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
(On top of that, the Death Dealer is hunched over on a relatively small horse, and not riding a massive GW monster with arms flailing and mouth agape.)

...
Here I throw myself on the charity of those that can measure accurately on their screens, but as I rough it on my screen, the horse in Kabuki's image seems to be about 12 hands high... which genuinely makes it a pony.

I don't agree on 12 hands. From feet to withers it seems to be roughly 30mm. That would be 1.5 meters at 1/50 scale, or 59 inches, or 14.75hh tall.
I don't have calipers on me in my office at work, but even saying the horse is smaller at 28mm from feet to withers, that's 1.4 meters at 1/50 scale, or 55 inches, or 13.75hh tall.

If I may, I think that I see where you are making a mistake: the Kabuki graphic shown earlier reveals that they included the base of the horse. If we were to either subtract that or compensate for it, I reckon the horse at about 25mm at the withers (1/6 smaller than your estimate of 30mm). This would scale it to about 1.25m or approximately 49 inches (just over 12 hands). 12 hands places it squarely in the realm of either the pony or the rather dainty horse.

But this gets back to something you said;

 judgedoug wrote:
(On top of that, the Death Dealer is hunched over on a relatively small horse, and not riding a massive GW monster with arms flailing and mouth agape.)

This is why I have found your invocation of the accuracy of the scale so confounding: this is not meant to be a scale for scale reproduction of the Death Dealer bronze. If it were, such an argument might have great merit. Rather, it is meant to be an adaptation of a pictorial work.

As befits a master, Frazetta took liberties with scale and the visual medium, playing with things like perspective, foreshortening and so on. Those liberties are intended to be evocative: the original painting is brooding, but also compact. Note that the painting is increadibly short on many details and also contains fantastical details. It seems somehow wrong to quibble about a figure being 6'1" or 6'3" when the painting in question has no face to speak of and glowing red eyes.

Kabuki had choices to make, and chose to reproduce the figure as exactly as they could, but in so doing, I think that they have rather lost much of what makes the painting.

Among other 35mm figures, does this miniature convey the brooding, muscular menace of the painting? Does his horse maintain its dignity and the menace of the painting at a more... modest size?

It's hard to explain such a thing, for we do not (after all) conduct much mounted combat. But we do have mounted police, observe this picture (appearently from Britain);


Compared to a modern day police horse, the Death Dealer's mount seems... rather petite. Whether or not it is true to 'scale', it seems clearly not to me to be consistent with the character.

All of this is, to be fair, academic at this point: seeing Kabuki not only make a (arguably defamatory) claim against a critic (and slam a competitor) on such 'evidence' as they have, I find it all but impossible to imagine supporting them in the future. Certainly not in something so speculative as a crowdfunding effort.

 Buzzsaw wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:


I don't agree on 12 hands. From feet to withers it seems to be roughly 30mm. That would be 1.5 meters at 1/50 scale, or 59 inches, or 14.75hh tall.
I don't have calipers on me in my office at work, but even saying the horse is smaller at 28mm from feet to withers, that's 1.4 meters at 1/50 scale, or 55 inches, or 13.75hh tall.

If I may, I think that I see where you are making a mistake: the Kabuki graphic shown earlier reveals that they included the base of the horse. If we were to either subtract that or compensate for it, I reckon the horse at about 25mm at the withers (1/6 smaller than your estimate of 30mm). This would scale it to about 1.25m or approximately 49 inches (just over 12 hands). 12 hands places it squarely in the realm of either the pony or the rather dainty horse.

I was counting for that Admittedly I'm at work so don't have accurate tools like a caliper, but I held up a piece of paper to the screen and made markings, and it seemed the horse was about 30mm from hoof to withers.

Going into the subjective now, I _do_ think Kabuki's model conveys - especially when painted - the brooding power of Frazetta's art. This is their 1/50 scale figurine, and I think it looks AWESOME and I cannot wait to paint mine up!

For the record, Kabuki is going to big efforts to make right after what happened. This better reflects both what I had heard and expected from the company, and I think, hopefully, that the incident with Azrael was an abnormality rather than the standard with them.

Hopefully this goes continues to go well and we can relegate this to the bloody funny 'wtf' story it should be lol.

That being said, again, I think the debate about how scale is a subjectively applied thing, that there is no single, universal method of measuring used by everyone is a great thing to discuss with hobbiests. The many systems for scale measurement each have an internal consistent logic, and being consistent are valid as logical systems, but not universal.

The only time you can strictly, strictly argue measurements is if the piece reproduce a real-life thing of which you are in possession of the measurements. Then you can calculate 1:1, but when you are creating fiction, you can't really draw that one to one, it is a lot more by feel or interpretation. That's my 2 cents.

 judgedoug wrote:

 Buzzsaw wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:


I don't agree on 12 hands. From feet to withers it seems to be roughly 30mm. That would be 1.5 meters at 1/50 scale, or 59 inches, or 14.75hh tall.
I don't have calipers on me in my office at work, but even saying the horse is smaller at 28mm from feet to withers, that's 1.4 meters at 1/50 scale, or 55 inches, or 13.75hh tall.

If I may, I think that I see where you are making a mistake: the Kabuki graphic shown earlier reveals that they included the base of the horse. If we were to either subtract that or compensate for it, I reckon the horse at about 25mm at the withers (1/6 smaller than your estimate of 30mm). This would scale it to about 1.25m or approximately 49 inches (just over 12 hands). 12 hands places it squarely in the realm of either the pony or the rather dainty horse.

I was counting for that Admittedly I'm at work so don't have accurate tools like a caliper, but I held up a piece of paper to the screen and made markings, and it seemed the horse was about 30mm from hoof to withers.

My ruler disagrees, but as I said, I see little profit in continuing to analyze something I will never own from a company I no longer care to associate with.

 judgedoug wrote:
Going into the subjective now, I _do_ think Kabuki's model conveys - especially when painted - the brooding power of Frazetta's art. This is their 1/50 scale figurine, and I think it looks AWESOME and I cannot wait to paint mine up!

Very nice. Perhaps everyone can be made happy: if you're looking for an extra, perhaps you would be willing to purchase the surplus from those that think it looks more like Lord Fauntleroy's outing to the pony extravaganza?