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 master of ordinance wrote:

nareik wrote:
The heavy weapons aren't going to shoot because it will be in combat but it won't be in combat because it is too slow...

I'm confused.

Basically you have a choice. You either build you blob for CC and spend the entire game trudging across the board, nerfing your own HW shooting in the process, getting shot to bits and finally making it into CC. Or you build your blob as a shooting blob, spend the game ineffectually plinking a single unit a turn and eventually your opponent just locks you down in CC, thus removing all shooting.

My point was the unit is so large heavy weapons can remain stationary (firing at full bs) while the melee elements move forward with men to spare to keep coherency, letting you spread out non-uniformly to mitigate blast weapons. Besides, the heavy weapons are cheap filler.

nareik wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

nareik wrote:
The heavy weapons aren't going to shoot because it will be in combat but it won't be in combat because it is too slow...

I'm confused.

Basically you have a choice. You either build you blob for CC and spend the entire game trudging across the board, nerfing your own HW shooting in the process, getting shot to bits and finally making it into CC. Or you build your blob as a shooting blob, spend the game ineffectually plinking a single unit a turn and eventually your opponent just locks you down in CC, thus removing all shooting.

My point was the unit is so large heavy weapons can remain stationary (firing at full bs) while the melee elements move forward with men to spare to keep coherency, letting you spread out non-uniformly to mitigate blast weapons. Besides, the heavy weapons are cheap filler.

Then you end up with even less models in close combat, and even less meatshields between your characters and your enemies murder unit. You also have an extremely long and drawn out conga line that is vulnerable to also being charged. In addition to all this, you are now engaged in melee so those HWT sitting waaayyyyyyy back can do nothing except pile in 2" closer a turn.

 master of ordinance wrote:

and you are then left with an extremely expensive and very slow moving blob

In the grim darkness of far future there is only magic and wizards everywhere.

You can now assault turn 1 like no big deal. Flying ruins and soul swaps can help. And that's not that hard to come by when you have a conclave or two. I'm not making stuff up - i've seen cultist lists wreck face thanks to indeps and magic. They perform turn 1 assaults and you can do very little about it.

 AnomanderRake wrote:


Or you take a third option and put them in a Gorgon. And then once your 50-model blob has trundled across the table in 400pts of perfect comfort they can charge out of it and get beaten to death while doing very little in return.

This adds another 400 points on to something that is already close to a thousand points of negligible effect.

Let's just call it an advanced tactic, then. I've seen it work very well and Jancoran has reports success as well. This means we have empirical evidence that it can work. There is a subset of guard players who can't even admit that Russ hulls are garbage in 7th and shouldn't be used. I'm not sure I'd listen to them on this matter.

Martel732 wrote:
Let's just call it an advanced tactic, then. I've seen it work very well and Jancoran has reports success as well. This means we have empirical evidence that it can work. There is a subset of guard players who can't even admit that Russ hulls are garbage in 7th and shouldn't be used. I'm not sure I'd listen to them on this matter.

A Marine player claims that it works, and another very dubious Marine/"Guard" player insists that it works, where as the vast majority of the Guard players view it as overpriced garbage.
You do have to see where we are coming from Martel.

 master of ordinance wrote:

A Marine player claims that it works, and another very dubious Marine/"Guard" player insists that it works, where as the vast majority of the Guard players view it as overpriced garbage.
You do have to see where we are coming from Martel.

I'll rephrase.
A marine player has seen it working, a marine/"guard"/csm/tau player insists that it works because he has used it himself and it worked, an ork/adeptus orkartes/orka militarum/chaos space ork player has seen lists with the exact same strategem work great. Yet the vast majority (2 out of 3 who have never tried it out) Guard players view it as garbage.

Why can't you accept that mages can make anything work.

I've been on the receiving end several times. But I don't know anything because my army sucks, I guess. You know what my list full of meltas and STR 10 dreads doesn't care about? Russes. Oh, I've got grav cannons now, too.

 master of ordinance wrote:


The 4++ you can get with Azreal, at great cost. The rerolling, etc, all require you to have psykers who get the correct psychic powers, and you are then left with an extremely expensive and very slow moving blob that will do little over the course of the entire game except perhaps scare an inexperienced opponent a little.

What psychics? You don't need psychic powers to reroll say the inv saves. All it needs is succesfull LD roll. Of which you can try more than once if you want to be sure of getting it.

Just because you don't know how to use the blop correctly doesn't mean it's bad. It just means you need to play more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MarsNZ wrote:
You're arguing that they should go into melee instead, where they get less S3 attacks and do less damage overall. Strange position to be arguing. As for the tac marines being barely more survivable than guardsmen, I'm guessing you're trolling or have never played guard or marines.

You forgot all the S8 AP2 power fist attacks and power axes said blop is sporting with...You seriously claim 50 lasguns are going to do more than over dozen S8 AP2 attacks and all the power axes? AND basic grunts with their S3 though those ain't going to do much anyway. S3 AP- is joke in this age.

And lasguns aren't what kills stuff. What kills stuff that is killing tac marines on 2+ without saves except for inv saves. Sure tac marines can get the same 4++ inv but blop has more wounds and in CC that's 4++ rerollable which tac marines don't have.

Martel732 wrote:
I've been on the receiving end several times. But I don't know anything because my army sucks, I guess. You know what my list full of meltas and STR 10 dreads doesn't care about? Russes. Oh, I've got grav cannons now, too.

You've got one of the better hard-counters to Guard melee blobs around...

(Death Company. Find me another place you can get 6+ attacks per model out of a 200ish-pt unit of ten models and I will act startled.)

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I've been on the receiving end several times. But I don't know anything because my army sucks, I guess. You know what my list full of meltas and STR 10 dreads doesn't care about? Russes. Oh, I've got grav cannons now, too.

You've got one of the better hard-counters to Guard melee blobs around...

(Death Company. Find me another place you can get 6+ attacks per model out of a 200ish-pt unit of ten models and I will act startled.)

They'll never live to get the assault off. Too fragile. There really is no hard counter to 50 models with a 4++ save.

Martel732 wrote:I've been on the receiving end several times. But I don't know anything because my army sucks, I guess. You know what my list full of meltas and STR 10 dreads doesn't care about? Russes. Oh, I've got grav cannons now, too.

I have tried to use these so called 'wonder blobs' in the past, but I gave in two years back as they did nothing of note, save die in vast numbers.

tneva82 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:


The 4++ you can get with Azreal, at great cost. The rerolling, etc, all require you to have psykers who get the correct psychic powers, and you are then left with an extremely expensive and very slow moving blob that will do little over the course of the entire game except perhaps scare an inexperienced opponent a little.

What psychics? You don't need psychic powers to reroll say the inv saves. All it needs is succesfull LD roll. Of which you can try more than once if you want to be sure of getting it.

Umm..... Yes you do? Unless there is an order that affects invun saves, and I cannot recall ever seeing one.

Just because you don't know how to use the blop correctly doesn't mean it's bad. It just means you need to play more.

And the same must go for a lot of Guard players here.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MarsNZ wrote:
You're arguing that they should go into melee instead, where they get less S3 attacks and do less damage overall. Strange position to be arguing. As for the tac marines being barely more survivable than guardsmen, I'm guessing you're trolling or have never played guard or marines.

You forgot all the S8 AP2 power fist attacks and power axes said blop is sporting with...You seriously claim 50 lasguns are going to do more than over dozen S8 AP2 attacks and all the power axes? AND basic grunts with their S3 though those ain't going to do much anyway. S3 AP- is joke in this age.

How are you getting a S8 powerfist? On Guard units the powerfist is only S6 and in all honesty it is a downgrade to the Power Axe in almost every way, baring a single point of Strength.

And lasguns aren't what kills stuff. What kills stuff that is killing tac marines on 2+ without saves except for inv saves. Sure tac marines can get the same 4++ inv but blop has more wounds and in CC that's 4++ rerollable which tac marines don't have.

Yes, you have six models doing this. Assuming that they get into close combat i the first place. And survive the enemies initial strikes. And survive any challenges. And actually hit.

Priests' War Hymns lets you reroll saves in CC.