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Whoo I just remembered that GW did the same thing as OP recently and wrote an article about it : )


https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/02/19/bearers-of-the-word-article-one/

 MrVulcanator wrote:
He says that almost all conversions are lazy and bad and are basicly proxying. Can you give me some good counterarguments in the form of some stuff you've done or seen?

So looking to wiki for a "proper" definition:

Miniature conversion refers to the practice of altering the appearance of a miniature or model so as to deviate from the standard version purchased in a boxed set.

Then for definition for "Proxy" best I could find is this:

"Proxy" is when you use something as a stand-in for something else. Say using one standard model as a different one or some object to act as a "stand-in".

Then to go a step further (also found, not my words):

"Counts-as" is when you create something cool, outside the norm, and use the rules for something else to represent its abilities on the tabletop. Best used to represent things that exist in the background, but does not yet have a model or rules.

I would argue in this order:
1) To be "lazy" would be to keep to the original design of the model: it is just plain easier to build "as-is".
2) He would have to define what would be the "bad" conversions.
2a) Plain old parts swaps are hard to go wrong since the parts are from the same company and maintain a similar esthetic.
2b) Third party add-on parts can be quite nice and again it is hard for those to go wrong since they are "professionally" done.
2c) If a person sculpts or scratch builds pieces some respect should at least be given for the effort and would beg the question "Can your friend do any better?".

In the end it is your friend's opinion.
I think it is in error going by what is said above and also not terribly nice being nasty about people's efforts that I feel are not "lazy" at all.
I think it really depends on what models he has in mind that bugged him.

I still regret playing a game against "troops" that were only legs glued to a base.

 oldzoggy wrote:
Whoo I just remembered that GW did the same thing as OP recently and wrote an article about it : )


https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/02/19/bearers-of-the-word-article-one/

They ought to have taken that model and used just a bit of greenstuff to get the spiky extensions from the armour rim into the middle of the plates. And with all the spare book parts in the GK kits they've got no excuse for not giving their new Word Bearer Praetor a copy of the Book of Lorgar.

The GS and sculpting tools are in the mail right now, should be able to start work over the weekend.

Also this friend is my brother (LUMINARTI CUNFIRMED) so I don't really have options for playing with someone else, and the game store isn't very big.

 supreme overlord wrote:
as a flip side to this I had a friend attempt to use penny's as summoned bloodletters in his KDK army. Put the kibosh on that real quick lol

That would be pretty alright if he gave you the ones you managed to beat up.

 MrVulcanator wrote:
The GS and sculpting tools are in the mail right now, should be able to start work over the weekend.

Also this friend is my brother (LUMINARTI CUNFIRMED) so I don't really have options for playing with someone else, and the game store isn't very big.

...Oh, good. That means you have easy access to him. The first thing you need is a low-light projector. While he's sleeping, project an autoscrolling slideshow of amazing conversions, and plant a hidden speaker in his room that plays conversion guides at a very low volume. Issue should fix itself.

Rosebuddy wrote:

 supreme overlord wrote:
as a flip side to this I had a friend attempt to use penny's as summoned bloodletters in his KDK army. Put the kibosh on that real quick lol

That would be pretty alright if he gave you the ones you managed to beat up.

lol I'd consider it if they were dollars and the end of the game was at the strip club

Your friend/brother is an idiot and you should IMMEDIATELY disassociate yourself with him regarding all things.

Thats good advice right there...

Your friend is an A**hat.

He must be lonely then "your friend" playing all by himself

"He" must really dislike John Blanche then the ArchProxier Blanshitsu master himself!

In 2nd Edition GW literally sold a cardboard proxy for an Ork Dreadnought in the starter set.
I use some proxies nowadays - 2 Giant Skaven beasts to represent my Giant Chaos Spawn, who have never had models made for them. Still look good.
Whilst my normal Chaos Spawn are mostly all conversions, not proxies, and look great for it. Considering Chaos Spawn are supposed to be randomly mutated, wouldn't it be strange if they all looked the same?

When I play, as long as the model is legal, has the gear on it it's meant to, then it's a conversion, not a proxy.

Proxy is useful to try new things before purchase, or new tactics. Your bro is being a bit of a pendant, but keep at to convert him yourself, and he'll be much better for it.

 MrVulcanator wrote:
He takes particular issue with me converting the Dark Vengeance set to nurgely chaos.

I'm playing Devil's advocate here, because it's so easy to take your statement and say you're right, but clearly there is a tiny possibility that you misinterpreted his statements and that his mindset wasn't all that dumb - who knows.


Maybe because going for Dark Vengeance or any other deeply discounted starter set and converting everything out of it doesn't quite look the part and is intentionally cheap.

There's a big difference between converting for the pleasure, good converting because you've got no money, and bad converting because you're cheap.

I suggested that a friend of mine should use Genestealer models instead of Chaos Spawn, because they look slightly alike and are way cheaper.
Now his Genestealers weren't converted in any way, and were they lightly converted, they'd still look like Genestealers and not Chaos Spawn.
It would make sense to find that not as good as the actual official miniatures.

One of the big issues with DV and the likes is that some of these models are way too static and way too overexposed.
I remember someone lashing at BTP because they had used the AoBR boss model as basis for a conversion because that was the cheapest option.

Maybe your friend would be fine with good conversions where the sole driver wasn't money.



I'm a big fan of scratchbuilding and kitbashing, but many kitbash and scratchbuilds just plain suck (the obvious plastic dinosaur for the Orks, vehicles that don't look anything like 40K, scratchbuilds that basically look like a badly converted wood proportions-figure-thingy you use for drawing ..)
If you're going to spend your time making something that sucks more than what you could've bought, that's good for you, but nobody should be forced to like it or accept it.

How am I to field a Vendetta, veterans with shotguns, priests with plasmaguns or combi-flamers, veterans with 3x plasmaguns or 3x meltaguns, extra armour on veichles, plasmapistols on sergeants, bolt pistols/bolters on sergeants, demo charges in special weapons squad, platoon command squads or veterans with close combat weapons and laspistols?

All are Astra militarum choices the requires converting or that you cough up more money then the squad cost in the first place for blisters. Have your friend explain how I'm to play the game if I'm not allowed to use models the codex represents.

EDIT: I'm going to assume your friend place Space marines. They are far more covered plastically then anything else.

@morgoth - you clearly stated you were playing Devil's Advocate, so please note that this is directed at your argument and NOT you. It just so happens I've seen this attitude quite a bit IRL and on the forum.

There's a big difference between converting for the pleasure, good converting because you've got no money, and bad converting because you're cheap.

"Bu ... bu .... but ... YOU DIDN'T SPEND ENOUGH MONEY!"

I run into this more and more lately. So many people put up conversions (a lot of them are VERY cool), and ask if people would play against them. A lot of the board says "no". Then someone complains about an opponent not letting them use a Death Korps of Krieg army and the response is "Hey! You spent all that money you DESERVE to use those minis!". While the Krieg player SHOULD be allowed to use them, basing it on cost is silly. Especially when everyone screams about how much GW stuff costs to being with. Any fool with a credit card can get a Krieg army. It takes time, dedication and skill to do a conversion. Some of the best conversions I've ever seen started with 2$ miniatures from a bitz box. Why? Because they were the *gasp* cheapest option!

At the end of the day, a bad conversion is a bad conversion. How much that cost should have NOTHING to do with it. Yeah, if someone glues some random bits to a soda can, sloppily paints it, and calls it a Devilfish - yeah, that sucks. On the other hand - look at that deodorant tank from WD. It cost very little to make and it's pretty cool! So saying a conversion is unacceptable because not enough money was spent just wreaks or elitism, snobbery and a lack of imagination IMO.

One of the big issues with DV and the likes is that some of these models are way too static and way too overexposed.

So if people aren't allowed to convert these without being hassled, do we now also harass those folks who use these models in their regular armies ... because that was the cheapest option? This just makes no sense to me ...

morgoth wrote:
...doesn't quite look the part...

THIS needs to be the bar. Not 'did you spend enough money?', not 'does GW officially endorse this particular configuration of plastic?', only 'does it look like the thing (rules/lore) you're using it as?' If you want to use the DV Dark Angels as Chaos Marines (leaving aside the issue that CSM aren't allowed plasma cannons) you shouldn't be worrying about people griping at what official kits are supposed to represent which models, you should be worrying about making the DV models look Chaosified.

If your opponent plonks down bare plastic DV Dark Angels and tells you he's using them as CSM, and the plasma cannon and assault cannon represent something else, you've got grounds to complain about laziness (unless he's just starting the hobby and doesn't have anything else yet). If your opponent plonks down based, painted DV Dark Angels with the plasma cannon and the assault cannon swapped out for kit Chaos can use and the models pitted/scarred up to represent ten thousand years of war and has a backstory all plotted out for his Fallen warband, then he's being cool and you've got absolutely no grounds to complain.

Tycho wrote:
@morgoth - you clearly stated you were playing Devil's Advocate, so please note that this is directed at your argument and NOT you. It just so happens I've seen this attitude quite a bit IRL and on the forum.

There's a big difference between converting for the pleasure, good converting because you've got no money, and bad converting because you're cheap.

"Bu ... bu .... but ... YOU DIDN'T SPEND ENOUGH MONEY!"

I run into this more and more lately. So many people put up conversions (a lot of them are VERY cool), and ask if people would play against them. A lot of the board says "no". Then someone complains about an opponent not letting them use a Death Korps of Krieg army and the response is "Hey! You spent all that money you DESERVE to use those minis!". While the Krieg player SHOULD be allowed to use them, basing it on cost is silly. Especially when everyone screams about how much GW stuff costs to being with. Any fool with a credit card can get a Krieg army. It takes time, dedication and skill to do a conversion. Some of the best conversions I've ever seen started with 2$ miniatures from a bitz box. Why? Because they were the *gasp* cheapest option!

At the end of the day, a bad conversion is a bad conversion. How much that cost should have NOTHING to do with it. Yeah, if someone glues some random bits to a soda can, sloppily paints it, and calls it a Devilfish - yeah, that sucks. On the other hand - look at that deodorant tank from WD. It cost very little to make and it's pretty cool! So saying a conversion is unacceptable because not enough money was spent just wreaks or elitism, snobbery and a lack of imagination IMO.

I think the problem with "cheap" is "little investment".

Everybody plays this game with a major investment in time and some investment in cash.

When somebody comes with the cheapest model ever, with the cheapest conversion ever and a cheap paint job on top, it detracts from the experience and it clearly comes from the lack of personal investment of that person.
When he's the tenth guy you see pulling the same trick, it makes sense to say: "no more of that gak" - and it may sound exactly like the OP's brother at times.

And that Deodorant tank from WD's past does look a bit like garbage, I'd rather not play against that sorry - even though that's one sick deodorant tank.

Remember we're arguing against conversions that basically look like gak - I don't think anyone has anything against a good conversion which doesn't look like someone glued two things together and which fits the 40K universe.

When somebody comes with the cheapest model ever, with the cheapest conversion ever and a cheap paint job on top, it detracts from the experience and it clearly comes from the lack of personal investment of that person.

Again though, it should only "detract" from the experience if the conversion is actually bad. How much it cost should have nothing to do with it. Again, I've seen someone buy $7 of Greenstuff, a $2 miniature from a bitz box and produce a pretty incredible conversion (they already had paints so no need to buy new paint). The conversion was on the correct base, had the right weapons and was the size equivalent of the model it was intended to replace. Again, it also looked awesome. So does it detract from the experience because it's essentially a $9 model replacing a $40 model? It's a sad sad day if anyone can answer "yes" to that ...

morgoth wrote:
...we're arguing against conversions that basically look like gak...

So stop arguing about price. Price is irrelevant. Throw price out the window. You could make a terrible model out of hundreds of dollars of Forge World bits. You could make a fabulous model out of random spare parts and a bit of greenstuff.

The quality of a conversion is a function of price, skill, and time. If you're rushing and you've got no skill you may need to spend more to make your model look good, but if you know what you're doing and you spend a lot of time on it you could be working from random scraps and a bit of putty and end up with a good-looking model.

Poly Ranger wrote:
In 2nd Edition GW literally sold a cardboard proxy for an Ork Dreadnought in the starter set.
I use some proxies nowadays - 2 Giant Skaven beasts to represent my Giant Chaos Spawn, who have never had models made for them. Still look good.
Whilst my normal Chaos Spawn are mostly all conversions, not proxies, and look great for it. Considering Chaos Spawn are supposed to be randomly mutated, wouldn't it be strange if they all looked the same?

Rogue Trader had Battle for the Farm, with a couple of sets of figures that you had to photocopy, and stick to card and base.

I'd love to see a 'tournament legal' ork army using orks/nobz from this set, with heavy support in the form of the 2nd ed dreadnoughts!

Would be using the whfb 4th ed stone thrower as a lobba be to much of a proxy?

 Zingraff wrote:
I would say it depends entirely on the parts you use to make those conversions. If the model is WYSIWYG, conforms to the rules and the majority of the components are of GW origin, then I would be unable to comprehend why anyone would compare it to a proxy.

 JamesY wrote:
Could be a front for envying the skill and imagination to do it himself. He might be playing devil's advocate if he knows it winds you up. Whatever the reason, doesn't have to matter to you.

^This

Part of 40K is about being creative with your army, and let's not forget that GW actively encourages converting (or at least editing) models as it sells Green Stuff. If he's going to be that pedantic then is it really worth playing with him?
I plan to create some of my CSM with loyalist marines which have their aquilas removed/vandalised along with some chaosy addons. As well as saving money, it's fluffy and still complies with WYSIWYG.

Having said that, I've seen some terrible "conversions" on ebay where people stick a bunch of weapon Bitz onto a model and sell it as an "Obliterator". I think it really depends on the quality; if your opponent has no way of telling what the model is then it's not much of a conversion.

You know, I do have a memory/thought of when I got all upset about proxies.

My friends and I arranged to have a big Apocalypse type battle 6 people, 3 per side and thought it was a good time since we all had finished up most of our assembly and painting.
The one guy was very competitive and knew what armies we had and what we had painted up.

He sprang on us the "Carnival of Pain" formation for Dark Eldar.
The thing being is that all the models were printed out in colour, double sided and placed on dowel bases cut to the right thickness for mounting.
It was executed well but he had a TON of actual models and decided to field that entire proxy army when the intent was to get a big "painted" battle together.
When pointed out that the proxy "models" were not ideal, we got from him "Do you have any idea how much Grotesques, Talos and Wracks cost??" and he was quite angry about it.
I had to point out "I would also love to field a Warlord Titan but do you have any idea how much that costs??, wait one minute, I can print one out on poster paper.".
Anyway, no one won in that bit: we were upset for doing all that work for everything to look good and this guy did spend some effort in making an entire proxy army but it was all about the win when it boiled down to it.
We played anyway but it was not one of our more... pleasant games.
The formation certainly caved face well (I was on the main receiving end of that) so that goal was accomplished.

My army was not tactically ideal, it was everything I had that fit the written intent for the game: to have something look good on the table.
We each spent time assembling and painting up terrain so it looked awesome.

Sometimes people want to try out some tactics, proxy whatever you want is fine: people have been playing with unpainted chess pieces for years: it is no big deal.
Sometimes people want a good looking game so it is more than just pushing around unfinished "toys" on a table.

Your friend is a kind of a dumbass. I mean, what a gakky opinion... Man. Even Games Workshop supports conversions. They even have a section In some White Dwarfs called "Sprues and Glue," WHICH IS ALL ABOUT CONVERTING MODELS! Even if WD didn't have enough that section, how can you possibly think there's something wrong with it? And how is it "lazy?"

Personally, I would drop your friend and not talk to him. You and I both know his stupidity is going to bring you down.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

morgoth wrote:
...we're arguing against conversions that basically look like gak...

So stop arguing about price. Price is irrelevant. Throw price out the window. You could make a terrible model out of hundreds of dollars of Forge World bits. You could make a fabulous model out of random spare parts and a bit of greenstuff.

The quality of a conversion is a function of price, skill, and time. If you're rushing and you've got no skill you may need to spend more to make your model look good, but if you know what you're doing and you spend a lot of time on it you could be working from random scraps and a bit of putty and end up with a good-looking model.

There's no "price" argument, just the "lack of personal investment" argument.

When something sucks, and it was a honorable attempt by someone who did all they could to make it not suck, people tend to be nicer than when it sucks and it's obvious the person didn't even try to do it right.

That implies investment in time and/or money.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Considering Chaos Spawn are supposed to be randomly mutated, wouldn't it be strange if they all looked the same?

I agree 100%! There shouldn't even be a model for the chaos spawn!

Pass him a Warhammer 3rd Edition, Realms of Chaos, Slaves to Darkness book and tell him to generate a chaos champion and warband.

A quick dice roll for me created:

Slaanesh Lvl 10 Human Wizard who has the face of a Fiend of Slaanesh, Eyestalks, Prehensile Tail, limb loss (arm).

While my warband consists of after 3 dice rolls.
3 Goblins with Bows
7 Beastmen
1 Troll with a Mane of Hair

Then ask him how he is going to field it on the battlefield?

Good luck doing it without some converting.

Or check these out from Eavy Metal back in the day. Spoiler for size.

While he irritates me don't insult my brother.

Also he says that specifically what I'm doing is lazy. He thinks that I can't do a good job. He says it's not about money but some other vague concept that I can't remember.

Hi there, your friend is full of it.

I proxy an entire Imperial Guard force with Only star wars miniatures, because I'm lazy.
Conversion takes Actual effort as you kitbash, re-pose, and paint new and (sometimes) interesting New models.

Your friend can, and should!, eat his own foot.

 MrVulcanator wrote:
While he irritates me don't insult my brother.

Also he says that specifically what I'm doing is lazy. He thinks that I can't do a good job. He says it's not about money but some other vague concept that I can't remember.

"You're hobbying wrong. Stop having badwrongfun." ?

 MrVulcanator wrote:
Also he says that specifically what I'm doing is lazy. He thinks that I can't do a good job. He says it's not about money but some other vague concept that I can't remember.

Let me guess: only a couple years difference in age as brothers?
It is his job to bug the living heck out of you!
My brother was 7 years younger than me and not a single model, Star Wars action figure or comic book from my childhood survived him, he destroyed them utterly.
Don't get me started about my Magic the Gathering cards from when the game first released way back when...

So feel perfectly free to point out the shortcomings of your brother's army:
"Ah, the vanilla paint by numbers brigade... again!"
"Which one is your squad leader again? They all look the same...."
"So, if I fold the model instructions wrong in front of you, will your head explode?"
"If I wanted a better opinion, I should have had a sister."
<pick up a model of his> "What the heck is that??? Do you need glasses or assemble in the dark... oh, never mind..." <put the model down quickly like it has a disease, rub your hands on your pants>
<squint your eyes at his army and mutter> "... Is that the paint, or not wet enough, or using a glue brush???.... <give your head a shake and continue what you were doing>

Or the all time favorite comment:

<pick up model, look at it..> "Nice coverage!!".

This is irritating garbage reserved for your brother or sister, to be used sparingly with friends with great laughter and to be used on strangers you would rather not know... ever.