Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Martel732 wrote:
You can stay away from the grav devs. Or they're forced to take a pod. Which usually means they fire once.

Exactly how do you stay away from something that Deep Strikes and effectively doesn't mishap?

 Xenomancers wrote:
#1 Fatey
#2 Space wolves - BS wargear that costs less and does more than all similar space marine wargear - really I just hate all spacewolves.

What cheap BS wargear is this? Apart from TWC and Wulfen.

 ChazSexington wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You can stay away from the grav devs. Or they're forced to take a pod. Which usually means they fire once.

Exactly how do you stay away from something that Deep Strikes and effectively doesn't mishap?

Read my post again very carefully. I addressed that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
#1 Fatey
#2 Space wolves - BS wargear that costs less and does more than all similar space marine wargear - really I just hate all spacewolves.

What cheap BS wargear is this? Apart from TWC and Wulfen.

The frost weaponry I'm guessing.

3 Shots, Martel. They're Salvo 3/5.

What are you replying to?

Martel732 wrote:
You can stay away from the grav devs. Or they're forced to take a pod. Which usually means they fire once.

This one.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You can stay away from the grav devs. Or they're forced to take a pod. Which usually means they fire once.

This one.

No, no. They fire their weapons once before they die. They usually fire 5 times because of skyhammer, because only losers like BA have non-relentless grav devs. But it's your job to make sure that they get that ONCE. Devs are quite squishy, so it's not a problem.

Anything with the term "marker light" on it.

The tau are just anime looking Guardsman once you kill the markerlights.

 sfshilo wrote:
Anything with the term "marker light" on it.

The tau are just anime looking Guardsman once you kill the markerlights.

With (potentially) immortal MCs, don't forget.

Martel732 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You can stay away from the grav devs. Or they're forced to take a pod. Which usually means they fire once.

This one.

No, no. They fire their weapons once before they die. They usually fire 5 times because of skyhammer, because only losers like BA have non-relentless grav devs. But it's your job to make sure that they get that ONCE. Devs are quite squishy, so it's not a problem.

That doesn't make any sense. Skyhammer doesn't make them any more survivable, so they'd still fire their weapons once (getting three shots each, or five in the Skyhammer).

Exactly. So how good of a unit are they, really? It all depends on what you can kill with your one turn of shooting I suppose.

Drop pod null deployment

I do not like grab weapons. They can hurt anything and against vehicles which already have some problems you only need to do a single hp to make it useless due to immobilization. And then there is the any other hps makes you take double after that. Walkers are rendered pretty useless by this one weapon on top of the other disadvantages.

 cranect wrote:
I do not like grab weapons. They can hurt anything and against vehicles which already have some problems you only need to do a single hp to make it useless due to immobilization. And then there is the any other hps makes you take double after that. Walkers are rendered pretty useless by this one weapon on top of the other disadvantages.

On the other hand, they are the only way for marines to burn through several trouble MCs in the meta. It's a very annoying mathematical niche, I know.

Warp spiders and screamer star.

 buddha wrote:
Warp spiders and screamer star.

Ohh.... good choices.

Martel732 wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You can stay away from the grav devs. Or they're forced to take a pod. Which usually means they fire once.

Exactly how do you stay away from something that Deep Strikes and effectively doesn't mishap?

Read my post again very carefully. I addressed that.

I did, and it still doesn't make any sense. They don't come in single squads, ever. Judging by the tabletop meta, there's hardly a single meltagun, plasma gun, or lascannon-wielding Devastator left in the entire Imperium, with the grav-wielders coming en masse in Skyhammer Annihilation Forces, forcing units to go to ground while being Relentless themselves. Well, they go to ground if anything survives. That's 20 grav shots per squad, re-rolling to Wound, plus re-rolling to Hit when they use UM doctrines. That's 2-3 misses and 2 failed to wound rolls per squad. That's 16 MEQ wounds. Sure, the unit may have some Invulnerable or Cover saves, but that's still 16 saves to make.

Also, what do you mean "fire once?" Because you're assuming they're gonna get charged?

Actually, wait, isn't Martel just a troll?

Grav devs that aren't in a transport will be shot to death or charged on the next turn.

Yes, they're gonna get their 20 shots per squad. ONCE. That's what I meant by my comment. So you better find a REALLY good target for as expensive as that squad is.

 ChazSexington wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You can stay away from the grav devs. Or they're forced to take a pod. Which usually means they fire once.

Exactly how do you stay away from something that Deep Strikes and effectively doesn't mishap?

Read my post again very carefully. I addressed that.

I did, and it still doesn't make any sense. They don't come in single squads, ever. Judging by the tabletop meta, there's hardly a single meltagun, plasma gun, or lascannon-wielding Devastator left in the entire Imperium, with the grav-wielders coming en masse in Skyhammer Annihilation Forces, forcing units to go to ground while being Relentless themselves. Well, they go to ground if anything survives. That's 20 grav shots per squad, re-rolling to Wound, plus re-rolling to Hit when they use UM doctrines. That's 2-3 misses and 2 failed to wound rolls per squad. That's 16 MEQ wounds. Sure, the unit may have some Invulnerable or Cover saves, but that's still 16 saves to make.

Also, what do you mean "fire once?" Because you're assuming they're gonna get charged?

Actually, wait, isn't Martel just a troll?

He isn't a troll, he just thinks everything and anything Tau or Eldar are super omfg cheeze! and marines are not op themselves since he personally plays BA.

I'm trolling because I suggest that a marine opponent has good targeting priority skills?

Marines are actually mediocre to below average without their gimmicks. I can prove this to you by forcing marines players to try C:BA for a while. No gladius, no skyhammer, no conclave = mediocre city.

 ChazSexington wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You can stay away from the grav devs. Or they're forced to take a pod. Which usually means they fire once.

Exactly how do you stay away from something that Deep Strikes and effectively doesn't mishap?

Terrain placement, deployment, Interceptor, and/or bubblewrapping.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

 sfshilo wrote:
Anything with the term "marker light" on it.

The tau are just anime looking Guardsman once you kill the markerlights.

With (potentially) immortal MCs, don't forget.

Guardsmen can get some potentially immortal mcs (main characters) now too.

Martel732 wrote:
Grav devs that aren't in a transport will be shot to death or charged on the next turn.

Yes, they're gonna get their 20 shots per squad. ONCE. That's what I meant by my comment. So you better find a REALLY good target for as expensive as that squad is.

That means you get a minimum of two squads either gone to ground (unless Fearless) or utterly annihilated (very likely). There are other SMs on the table as well - Sternguard with

Martel732 wrote:
I'm trolling because I suggest that a marine opponent has good targeting priority skills?

Marines are actually mediocre to below average without their gimmicks. I can prove this to you by forcing marines players to try C:BA for a while. No gladius, no skyhammer, no conclave = mediocre city.

Certainly. And remove scatbike and warp spider spam, plus Wraithknights, and Eldar are suddenly nowhere near as scary. Tau you'd limit Riptides/Stormsurges.

But that's what this thread's about. Units that are hated on the table are much more hated in plural.

Hell, I even specified exactly under what conditions I hate them. A single unit of grav devs is manageable, but it's when my opponent has brought the Imperium's entire grav arsenal to bear I might as well concede. Team Edward, Team Jacob, or Team Bathrobe SMs aren't anywhere near as bad as Vanilla, because - and this point I agree on - they don't have the gimmicks. But I specified that in my third post and presumed intelligent readers in my first.

 n0t_u wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You can stay away from the grav devs. Or they're forced to take a pod. Which usually means they fire once.

Exactly how do you stay away from something that Deep Strikes and effectively doesn't mishap?

Terrain placement, deployment, Interceptor, and/or bubblewrapping.
Most armies don't have access to Interceptor. Terrain placement I'm curious as to how you would do - it goes up before you choose DZ. Deployment/bubblewrapping doesn't really help - grav amps blows through everything that isn't a 5/6+ save, whom will die to bolterfire. Now I have dead GEQs and 20 grav amp shots incoming. Best I've been able to do is fill up my DZ with Renegades and park my CSMs at back.

I'm playing a lot vs Chaos: lately and I really hate certain things on the table.


Forgefiend/Maulerfiend, don't know which exactly but I hate it. One game I rained death on them for 5 rounds with missile launchers and only one or two wounds stripped.... I guess it is just bad luck, but I don't know how to stop the effectively.

Hounds A terrible nastiness of wounds 2 pool. Terrible...

Helldrakes I see some net lists featuring 3 of them. Like Trump would say: Dishonest and Unfair.

Honorable mention - Lord on Juggernaut that becomes Bloodthirstier or smth if you kill and you don't even get the Warlord kill point until you do not remove the Bloodthirstier from the game, great...

 DalinCriid wrote:
I'm playing a lot vs Chaos: lately and I really hate certain things on the table.


Forgefiend/Maulerfiend, don't know which exactly but I hate it. One game I rained death on them for 5 rounds with missile launchers and only one or two wounds stripped.... I guess it is just bad luck, but I don't know how to stop the effectively.

Hounds A terrible nastiness of wounds 2 pool. Terrible...

Helldrakes I see some net lists featuring 3 of them. Like Trump would say: Dishonest and Unfair.

Honorable mention - Lord on Juggernaut that becomes Bloodthirstier or smth if you kill and you don't even get the Warlord kill point until you do not remove the Bloodthirstier from the game, great...

Quit using missile launchers. That will help a lot.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You can stay away from the grav devs. Or they're forced to take a pod. Which usually means they fire once.

Exactly how do you stay away from something that Deep Strikes and effectively doesn't mishap?

Terrain placement, deployment, Interceptor, and/or bubblewrapping.

Most armies don't have access to Interceptor. Terrain placement I'm curious as to how you would do - it goes up before you choose DZ. Deployment/bubblewrapping doesn't really help - grav amps blows through everything that isn't a 5/6+ save, whom will die to bolterfire. Now I have dead GEQs and 20 grav amp shots incoming. Best I've been able to do is fill up my DZ with Renegades and park my CSMs at back.

It's like look at the way the terrain is placed then use it to your advantage with your deployment as drop pods, if I remember right, can have their guidance rules used against them quite well. Bubblewrapping isn't about protecting the model for the entire game, it's about interrupting that alpha strike and possibly beta strike.

I don't see how can use a Pod's guidance against it, it's zero risk scatter almost guaranteed to go where you want it.
It does specifically say REDUCE scatter, so even if it scatters 12'' it'll pop back that 12''' if you placed it next to a massive blob.
Only way to exploit is when someone doesn't realise off the board still mishaps, so get them to deploy in a corner.
Plus you get a 6'' disembarkation to mitigate any further scatter thst there was.

Compared to regular deep strike where even a 7'' buffer zone all around is risky, Pods need enough space to accomodate the pod and unit, any more actually makes it less accurate.

Castellon robots.

5+ invuln, 5+ FNP, 18 s6 ap3 shots per bot, 12 twinlinked, T7, 3 wounds a pop, with the damn canticles. But wait there's more! It's T7 for a reason. All infantry weapons need a 6 to wound it, so if you wound it, you end up eating your own shots.

With Cawl and grav kataphrons on the board... yea that's a straight up pregame handshake.


Second most hated, Wulfen
The stupidest rules in 40k, guaranteed to kill whatever they touch, fast, buff nearby units and their Hammers swing at my initiative.

3rd would be the Stormsurge for obvious reasons


Im.not even going to mention and Eldar gak with soul burst. That rule effectively broke the game. Phil Kelly out Warded Matt Ward.

My carnifexes are kitted for assault because I'm an old coot who thinks Carnifexes having to rely on shooting to be good is just wrong.

Carnifexes: Charging
Wraithguards: D-scythed
Overwatch: Brutal

My carnifexes are forcibly removed from the tabletop.

The fact that I have to try and engage in shooting matches with the Eldar and almost never get to assault with an army that is supposed to be up there with Khornates and Orks in close combat focus (two other assault armies that mind you; very rarely get to assault with anything but certain beasticks) just rubs me the wrong way. Also wraithguards and wraithblades with fortune and protect on them may as well have a template ranged zone of exclusion around them.

Scatterbikes can also piss off though they at least don't basically delete my TMCs. Just everything else in the army. I would really like it if Dakka Flyrants weren't basically a necessity but at this point I'm so jaded about my primary army struggling against the AdMech, Astartes, Eldar, Tau, and Necrons that I don't feel even the slightest bit bad about fielding Skyblight swarm spam lists.

Martel732 wrote:

 DalinCriid wrote:
I'm playing a lot vs Chaos: lately and I really hate certain things on the table.


Forgefiend/Maulerfiend, don't know which exactly but I hate it. One game I rained death on them for 5 rounds with missile launchers and only one or two wounds stripped.... I guess it is just bad luck, but I don't know how to stop the effectively.

Hounds A terrible nastiness of wounds 2 pool. Terrible...

Helldrakes I see some net lists featuring 3 of them. Like Trump would say: Dishonest and Unfair.

Honorable mention - Lord on Juggernaut that becomes Bloodthirstier or smth if you kill and you don't even get the Warlord kill point until you do not remove the Bloodthirstier from the game, great...

Quit using missile launchers. That will help a lot.

Lascanons didn't do much either. Demon save and that's it.

 DalinCriid wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 DalinCriid wrote:
I'm playing a lot vs Chaos: lately and I really hate certain things on the table.


Forgefiend/Maulerfiend, don't know which exactly but I hate it. One game I rained death on them for 5 rounds with missile launchers and only one or two wounds stripped.... I guess it is just bad luck, but I don't know how to stop the effectively.

Hounds A terrible nastiness of wounds 2 pool. Terrible...

Helldrakes I see some net lists featuring 3 of them. Like Trump would say: Dishonest and Unfair.

Honorable mention - Lord on Juggernaut that becomes Bloodthirstier or smth if you kill and you don't even get the Warlord kill point until you do not remove the Bloodthirstier from the game, great...

Quit using missile launchers. That will help a lot.

Lascanons didn't do much either. Demon save and that's it.

If you're going to kill tanks from a distance you may as well man up and get triple predator annihilators (or use the Imperial fists for your Devs and Cents) for that sweet tank hunters bonus. Otherwise the go to way to deal with vehicles for the marines (besides GravCents or GravBikes) is going to be melta weapons; whether transported or drop podded in or on bikes if you're some weirdo who doesn't like grav weapons on their bikes. Standard devastators aren't a particularly efficient way to kill tanks without Tank hunters regardless of whether they're using Krak Missiles or Lascannons. They're also kind of squishy too. Especially without some bolter scrubs to be meatshields for the guys with heavy weapons. A bunch of lascannon or assault cannon razorbacks would also be serviceable for this task since they're dirt cheap anyway, but really Melta weapons are going to be your best bet outside of Grav spam or utilizing triple predators. Unless as mentioned, you're using the Imperial fists in which case you've got tank hunters on your non-vehicular lascannons, thus making them significantly better at putting holes in vehicles.