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While I'd like to see numerous changes in the forthcoming edition, with the rumors and information we got so far, I'm now left only wishing that 8th edition doesn't end up anything close to AoS.

Mr. CyberPunk wrote:
While I'd like to see numerous changes in the forthcoming edition, with the rumors and information we got so far, I'm now left only wishing that 8th edition doesn't end up anything close to AoS.

It will end wth certain similarity to AoS.

In regards to looking AoS. I just hope they don't bring Grand-Alliances. It doesn't translate that well int 40k as there's quite a few outliers.

 NenkotaMoon wrote:
I bought IG for a horde.

Understandable, many of us buy into an army because of the cool idea that is a horde army.. However do you currently own a decently painted Ig horde ?

One thing I've heard a few people say although not on this thread is the idea that guard should run faster than marines... this appears to be based on the assumption that big armour means heavier means slower... and I wouldn't put it past GW.

one thing I do not want full stop is a charging unit striking first!
You mean to tell me that if, for example a guard infantry squad decides to commit suicide by charging a dark eldar or even eldar unit with bayonet and they are not already locked in combat (they may have just consolidated out of combat for example), those space elves are going to just stand there and let the humans throw the first punch? I don't think so. An initiative modifier yes, chargers strike first... No!

Vehicles need to be made more reliable or on the flop side bring a load of the current MCs (I'm looking at you Tau) down a peg or two by making them vehicles or what they truly are... walkers. The suggestions of giving vehicles wounds and armour saves should help though.

I want to see Orks get a buff. They are by far the most fun army to play against and yet they really struggle. Our resident Ork players are best placed to suggest how that can be done.

I want, and from what we have heard from GW am likely to get, bonuses for actually playing my army in a way that matches the fluff. The novels I have consumed feverishly in the past year or so have been the main driving force in building my army the way it currently is, loadout wise etc, but I have no recollection anywhere of reading about Grav centurions dropping in a pod with a librarian running around blasting everything while a grav wielding command squad on bikes with an attached librarius conclave (now invisible thanks to the whitches) jinks an entire enemy armies shooting while two 5 man tactical squads sit on back field objectives cowering at all the AP3 weapons their enemy carries. And that's just marines!

I agree with @oldzoggy that all grav should be made relics and be limited. This might be bias on my part but I hate grav and don't use it for exactly the same reason I dont use centurions, it was a stupid invention dreamt up by GW as a way to not have SMs lose out in an arms race that shouldn't even have started. If Wraithknights hadn't be so undercosted and/or OP we wouldn't have had to unnecessarily introduce a new weapon to deal with it.

I want my tactical squads to actually be more useful than my specialist units since they are more experienced and better warriors and my veterans even more so. I don't understand why Sternguards main use is as a suicide anti tank or anti heavy infantry unit. Rather undignified and wasteful purpose for a chapters most venerated Brothers.

I want horde armies to be viable. I understand the previous comments about GW not wanting to push people down that route because of the huge investment in time and resources but that doesn't mean making a horde Nid army the only way to play them, just make it one of the viable options. The only reason I haven't made a Nid swarm army, to relive the invasion of Ultramar, is because of the pointlessness of the list as it can't work with the current editions rules.

I would hope that I am not required to spend nearly £100 on books for the army I have already collected and poured money into GW for in order to simply carry on playing it but I guess that is out of my hands.

All that being said I am quietly optimistic and think that GW will likely have learnt a lot of lessons from the move to AOS and they have been making so very sound decisions over the past year, seemly moving the company in a positive direction, but you know the old adage... "old habits die hard".

My concern is that GWs opinion of a fluffy marine army is a lot of Tactical marines or something.

Personally I think playing fluffy should be it's own reward, and that GW should allow that sort of thing.
But they shouldn't try to encourage you to do so, as everyones opinion of fluff is different, and homebrew fluff will always have the potential to differ.

You mean to tell me that if, for example a guard infantry squad decides to commit suicide by charging a dark eldar or even eldar unit with bayonet and they are not already locked in combat (they may have just consolidated out of combat for example), those space elves are going to just stand there and let the humans throw the first punch? I don't think so. An initiative modifier yes, chargers strike first... No!

I find it equally ridiculous that a unit that was in the process of running across the battlefield, shooting at something else, and executing orders can never be caught off guard when some other group jumps the with weapons. The fact that they can react is already represented, by overwatch. The game is abstracted in starts and stops, but its meant to represent and ongoing battle.

A unit landing on you while your trying to fire at some other part of the battlefield, trying not be shot, trying to listen to your squad leader, potentially trying to reload, avoiding debris, planning to charge someone else.... It makes sense that a unit that was PREPARED to hit you with a pointy stick gets to hit first.

 davou wrote:

You mean to tell me that if, for example a guard infantry squad decides to commit suicide by charging a dark eldar or even eldar unit with bayonet and they are not already locked in combat (they may have just consolidated out of combat for example), those space elves are going to just stand there and let the humans throw the first punch? I don't think so. An initiative modifier yes, chargers strike first... No!

I find it equally ridiculous that a unit that was in the process of running across the battlefield, shooting at something else, and executing orders can never be caught off guard when some other group jumps the with weapons. The fact that they can react is already represented, by overwatch. The game is abstracted in starts and stops, but its meant to represent and ongoing battle.

A unit landing on you while your trying to fire at some other part of the battlefield, trying not be shot, trying to listen to your squad leader, potentially trying to reload, avoiding debris, planning to charge someone else.... It makes sense that a unit that was PREPARED to hit you with a pointy stick gets to hit first.

the rumor I heard from a good source was the bonus attack for charging first goes then it goes to initiative to represent the unit caught off guard or having been otherwise occupied. ie 20 slugga/choppa ork boyz w/ nob and pk charge a unit of 10 tac marines. orks swing 20 attacks hitting on 4's wounding on 4's (averaging 4 saves for the marine player) then nob gets one tag with PK hit on 4's wound on 2's (no save) the mathematically around 8 marines swing back hitting on 4's wound on 4's with 8 attacks (2 ork tshirt saves) then the ork normal attack would happen 60 attacks hitting on 4's wounding on 4's followed by the remaining 3 power claw attacks

I can see them going with charging units striking first being more cinematic. Charging in turn based games can get weird though.

For example, you could have two close-combat oriented units running across the board towards each other. Unit A is outside of charge range, so they run instead. Unit B is then within charge range, and they make it in. Unit B charged Unit A, but I would argue that Unit A is also charging Unit B. I mean, maybe they winded themselves running and while they were busy catching their breath Unit B charged them, but in my mind it should be two close combat units smashing into each other rather than one standing around while the other charges it. That's one of the difficulties of turn-based games.

Also, many advantages granted by charging are weird. Why would a charging unit hit harder, or go first? If you have two spearmen with equal reach, and Spearman A charges at Spearman B who is standing still, they will hit each other equally hard and at the same time. It makes sense for the units with the longest reach to go first, although that could be difficult to keep track of and would probably require a different stat in the weapon profile. It would make sense for certain units, like horse mounted lancers, to hit harder on the charged as they braced against their huge horse. Certain Hammer of Wrath attacks from bikes and the like also make a sort of sense. I could see leadership tests on both sides involved with charging, but that would probably bog the game down.

I think they'll keep a lot of the weird advantages with charging around due to the cinematic feel it gives to things. I'm okay with that.

I would actually be okay with them getting rid of initiative steps in close combat entirely, and having the speed of different units and weapons be represented by their number of attacks. Maybe a Space Marine with a boltpistol and chainsword gets to make three attacks, while their sergeant with a power fist only gets to make one, and the Dark Eldar they are fighting get to make a crazy number of attacks and have some special rules that make them harder to hit. All attacks resolve at the same time.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 davou wrote:

You mean to tell me that if, for example a guard infantry squad decides to commit suicide by charging a dark eldar or even eldar unit with bayonet and they are not already locked in combat (they may have just consolidated out of combat for example), those space elves are going to just stand there and let the humans throw the first punch? I don't think so. An initiative modifier yes, chargers strike first... No!

I find it equally ridiculous that a unit that was in the process of running across the battlefield, shooting at something else, and executing orders can never be caught off guard when some other group jumps the with weapons. The fact that they can react is already represented, by overwatch. The game is abstracted in starts and stops, but its meant to represent and ongoing battle.

A unit landing on you while your trying to fire at some other part of the battlefield, trying not be shot, trying to listen to your squad leader, potentially trying to reload, avoiding debris, planning to charge someone else.... It makes sense that a unit that was PREPARED to hit you with a pointy stick gets to hit first.

the rumor I heard from a good source was the bonus attack for charging first goes then it goes to initiative to represent the unit caught off guard or having been otherwise occupied. ie 20 slugga/choppa ork boyz w/ nob and pk charge a unit of 10 tac marines. orks swing 20 attacks hitting on 4's wounding on 4's (averaging 4 saves for the marine player) then nob gets one tag with PK hit on 4's wound on 2's (no save) the mathematically around 8 marines swing back hitting on 4's wound on 4's with 8 attacks (2 ork tshirt saves) then the ork normal attack would happen 60 attacks hitting on 4's wounding on 4's followed by the remaining 3 power claw attacks

Perfectly fair IMO.

If I bullrush you and tackle you while you were doing something else it amkes sense that you get slammed regardless of how much of a ninja you happen to be.

Going with pure initiative at all times kinda makes it feel like every unit in the game screams "Were over here, charging you; from the left, READY YOURSELVES" when they launch a combat against another unit. Init should certainly matter, but not when you get caught in a trap. If you don't want the unit with the slower Init hitting first, either be out of range, or charge them first.

All I want for 8th is a generic Space Marine Scout HQ choice. My wish is simple GW, please make it happen. I am bummed that to make an all 10th Company army I am pretty much stuck with Ultramarines for a good chunk of it.

I hope 8E is an AOS GHB for 40k, stripping out all of the unnecessary complexity that gets in the way of just playing a game.

I'm hoping they add AOS style wounds/damage charts to vehicles, but still prevent things like lasgun fire from taking one down. I think one way they could do it would be to have a rule like "Armored: wound rolls against this model suffer a -2 penalty. If this would result in a required roll of 7+, the would roll is prevented entirely. Weapons with the Anti-Armor trait ignore the penalty, and instead deal double the amount of damage upon a successful wound roll", and then have weapons like krak missiles, lascannons and melta weapons have the Anti-Armor trait.

1. For the love of god DO NOT bring back armor save modifiers. Keep the current weapon AP system.
2. Elimination of most USR's.
3. Remove all the odd nuts & bolts that people either don't remember or don't care to use.
4. Give Monstrous Creatures degradation tables like in AoS.
5. Reduce cover saves to 6+; 5+ at the most.
6. Eliminate Look Out Sir.
7. Keep blast markers and flame templates.

I'm not totally against AoS charging goes first business but I would like to see a few conditions to actually getting it.
Rather than a straight up thing I'd like to see the Initiative stat remain but any models not facing the charging unit strike the charging unit at I1.

Holy god I would hate that. It already takes horde armies upwards for fourty minutes to finish a movement phase, can you imagine if suddenly facing mattered?!

Hell, I've been knowing to 'deploy' orks by dumping a ziplock back upside down and giving the pile a few 'pats' in order to space them out.

First problem with hoard armies is the number of models needed, I want to see a return to 2nd edition model counts.
Orks look better when the paint has been treated a little rough, same with my Nids.
I use magnetic strips of five (fridge magnet advertising) for movement. Each gaunt base has a 2mm magnet glued to it, took me a while to make but it's worth it.

Your Ork hoards would probably benefit directional play, especially if directional Overwatch from 2nd ed comes back.

 davou wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 davou wrote:

You mean to tell me that if, for example a guard infantry squad decides to commit suicide by charging a dark eldar or even eldar unit with bayonet and they are not already locked in combat (they may have just consolidated out of combat for example), those space elves are going to just stand there and let the humans throw the first punch? I don't think so. An initiative modifier yes, chargers strike first... No!

I find it equally ridiculous that a unit that was in the process of running across the battlefield, shooting at something else, and executing orders can never be caught off guard when some other group jumps the with weapons. The fact that they can react is already represented, by overwatch. The game is abstracted in starts and stops, but its meant to represent and ongoing battle.

A unit landing on you while your trying to fire at some other part of the battlefield, trying not be shot, trying to listen to your squad leader, potentially trying to reload, avoiding debris, planning to charge someone else.... It makes sense that a unit that was PREPARED to hit you with a pointy stick gets to hit first.

the rumor I heard from a good source was the bonus attack for charging first goes then it goes to initiative to represent the unit caught off guard or having been otherwise occupied. ie 20 slugga/choppa ork boyz w/ nob and pk charge a unit of 10 tac marines. orks swing 20 attacks hitting on 4's wounding on 4's (averaging 4 saves for the marine player) then nob gets one tag with PK hit on 4's wound on 2's (no save) the mathematically around 8 marines swing back hitting on 4's wound on 4's with 8 attacks (2 ork tshirt saves) then the ork normal attack would happen 60 attacks hitting on 4's wounding on 4's followed by the remaining 3 power claw attacks

Perfectly fair IMO.

If I bullrush you and tackle you while you were doing something else it amkes sense that you get slammed regardless of how much of a ninja you happen to be.

Going with pure initiative at all times kinda makes it feel like every unit in the game screams "Were over here, charging you; from the left, READY YOURSELVES" when they launch a combat against another unit. Init should certainly matter, but not when you get caught in a trap. If you don't want the unit with the slower Init hitting first, either be out of range, or charge them first.

That would be a really good way of doing it to give the charging unit some bonus and guaranteed strike capacity another thing we thought of today would be to say that if a charging unit has a lower initiative they strike at the same time as the unit receiving the charge. I'd be happy with either, just no straight up charging guarantees first strike.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 oni wrote:
1. For the love of god DO NOT bring back armor save modifiers. Keep the current weapon AP system.
2. Elimination of most USR's.
3. Remove all the odd nuts & bolts that people either don't remember or don't care to use.
4. Give Monstrous Creatures degradation tables like in AoS.
5. Reduce cover saves to 6+; 5+ at the most.
6. Eliminate Look Out Sir.
7. Keep blast markers and flame templates.

on point 7...
the owner of a local 3rd party store mentioned being told by GW to not order any more templates. Whether they're being redesigned or going completely is anybody's guess.

I just hope its nothing like AoS. Keep it more in depth.

Ideally, I'd like to see 5th brought back with some bits of 4th and some of the more "low level" post 5E changes mixed in (stuff like 4E victory points instead of KP's, 7E rapid fire weapon & vehicle passenger effect rules) and a return to at least the power level path GW looked to be pursuing in late 6th/early 7E before they hard-reversed and went full Derp with Necrons and later.

That would play quite nicely, allowing for larger armies but without the ridiculous scale of things that 7E has brought in but also allow play at a lower level that functions much easier without having to worry about some of the more obscene stuff that can be packed in at low levels now, and with dramatically fewer issues of things like MC's vs Vehicles or Assault vs Shooting and the like.


More realistically, I expect that we'll see more "bring whatever you want" mix and match nonsense with some of the more extravagant power combo stuff cut out and potentially wild but ultimately misplaced core gameplay mechanic changes, as is tradition.

thought of today would be to say that if a charging unit has a lower initiative they strike at the same time as the unit receiving the charge. I'd be happy with either, just no straight up charging guarantees first strike.

IMO the only way to guarantee getting to react to an opponents assault first should be spending your own action or part of your own action on your turn to get it.

If your unit could 'Dig in' during their turn, instead of shoot; id be perfectly fine with them having full bs on overawatch and getting to strike first despite being charged....

But in reality, that unit that eats the charge was likely shooting at something else, moving in a different direction and as the rules stand they still get to strike first if they happen to have better reflexes.

I am all for charging first = striking first. This made 5th warhammer fantasy a game of tactics since movement suddenly becomes important. 40k is lacking at this point. However I am not sure if premeasuring + random charge distance make it as enjoyable as it was.

Also do not fear for your eldar close combat units they will probably have superior movement stats and tricks. If you manage to get charged by a slower opponent with them you deserve to be annihilated in first round close combat. This is what made the assault first charge first rule great. It forced players to actually plan ahead, and come up with clever ambushes instead of just shoving your close combat blob of doom forward to the enemy in hope that you somehow managed to get into close combat.

 oldzoggy wrote:

 NenkotaMoon wrote:
I bought IG for a horde.

Understandable, many of us buy into an army because of the cool idea that is a horde army.. However do you currently own a decently painted Ig horde ?

Yes

 Vaktathi wrote:
More realistically, I expect that we'll see more "bring whatever you want" mix and match nonsense with some of the more extravagant power combo stuff cut out and potentially wild but ultimately misplaced core gameplay mechanic changes, as is tradition.

Unbound would be fairer than Decurion or Gladius.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
More realistically, I expect that we'll see more "bring whatever you want" mix and match nonsense with some of the more extravagant power combo stuff cut out and potentially wild but ultimately misplaced core gameplay mechanic changes, as is tradition.

Unbound would be fairer than Decurion or Gladius.

In many ways yes, but I was more addressing the trend in general. Between the allies rules, formations, multiple detachments, etc there's far too much mix and match and whatnot for this game to have any coherency even without unbound.

For me, smaller games than the 1850 pt insanity pervading the current meta. A game that I can finish in an hour to hour-and-a-half rather than spending a half day on it to give up after the 4th turn.

Free core rules and "warscrolls".

No rerollable saves, cover and invuln can't be better than a 3+. Give every army invuln saves or EW. Limit the number of dice used on dispelling. Make some equivalent to irresistable force from FB (getting perills should be worth the risk). Let us choose psykik powers and warlord traits and get rid of useless and broken ones (Haemorage and invisiblity respectivly) .Give either everybody FOC alterations, or get rid of them alltogether (why can SM take bikes as troops, but orks can't?). Give BS and armour/cover modifiers instead of conventional ap.

More Dakka

 NenkotaMoon wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:

 NenkotaMoon wrote:
I bought IG for a horde.

Understandable, many of us buy into an army because of the cool idea that is a horde army.. However do you currently own a decently painted Ig horde ?

Yes

Bit of a divergance but what is your process for painting?

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 NenkotaMoon wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:

 NenkotaMoon wrote:
I bought IG for a horde.

Understandable, many of us buy into an army because of the cool idea that is a horde army.. However do you currently own a decently painted Ig horde ?

Yes

Bit of a divergance but what is your process for painting?

I used to do Soviets from Bolt Action so I am used to a horde. I use Cadians (which I homebrew some fluff and say that they are not Cadian's but from a planet that just models there stuff) and a few aftermarket from Victoria Miniatures, like slouch hats and bare arms. Play some nice music or Netflix and just take my time. I can get about 15 guys straight on a good night, four if bad. Assembly and paint both. Tanks are a bit different. A day to assemble and a day to paint. As well, most if not all my stuff is hand painted, including my tanks, no airbrush.

Really, it's your imagination with horde armies that can keep you going. I like to think each Guardsmen has a story. I also like switching heads around from different spruces One of my flamers has the bandana head from a Chimera sprew.

I would like to see 40k have feth all to do with AoS but that horse has bolted. I would have had no problem with a ground up rebuild of 40k but oh well.

The free rules is a bit of slight of hand, AoS had free core rules mostly because there was only 4 pages. But to get any real flavour to the game you need to buy the books.

Anyway so what I would like to see is damage control removing the worst bits of AoS.

So no shooting into combat.
No shooting out of combat.
No mysterious scenery.
No random charge distances.
no random turns.
More than 2 psychic powers at launch.
No Mob Rule for every army.
No Fixed to hit or to wound rolls.
No mortal wounds.
No Rend, actually have a real set of save modifiers.
Vehicles are not just funny looking people.

If they can manage that they may be some hope.