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Martel732 wrote:
Let us know how many games you win with marines, because its much more complicated than your analysis.

Oh hey there pot.
Thanks for telling me that I'm black.
I never could have figured that out on my own.
Signed
-- Kettle

You don't make that clear from your "EZ fix" posts. Full disclosure, i'm not winning much, but most games are close. Games against ig are over before they begin. I'm lucky to get any vp at all vs ig.

But here's the thing-- you're the one that argues that it's unacceptable for a 150 point unit (supported by another fifty or so points of characters) to be unable to be taken down in one turn by 150 points of other units.

Apparently, that logic of yours only ever applies to conscripts, however, if it's any other unit, you're okay with it taking more than equal cost.

In this thread, I'm merely advocating that if Marines fear long-ranged firepower, they use their units most resistant to it to shield the ones that aren't, just like Guard are using their most resistant units to shield them from close assault and short-ranged shooting.. And Rhinos are one of the toughest transports point per point in the game.

Not exactly 150. But much closer to 150 than 450 is more appropriate for a hard counter. Conscripts have no hard counter in the game currently. That's a problem. Rhinos are kinda orthogonal to the issue of defeating the ig. Also, marine tourney lists are not rocking many rhinos. Largely because the units that go in rhinos are ass i'm guessing.

[screw it, not worth it]

You're very right; it's not.

I am going to go a different direction, here, after reading all of the other posts.
My suggestion is to talk to your friends who play imperial guard.
I expect that the smart ones will understand the situation in 8th edition.I would ask them to play 1500 points instead of 2000. This should give you some breathing room to experiment with different army compositions, different strategies and different terrain. The games should play a lot faster, too, so this way you can sell them as experimental games for research purposes, more or less.
A good hobbyist will see the virtue in this, and give it a go.
Some IG players might be salty for having suffered through a few years with their tanks getting one shotted, but after beating everyone now they may be amenable to your wishes for a few games to try to sort out how to deal with the new rules.

40K players seem to never get tired of kicking sand on the wimpy kid at the beach.

IG players have come full circle again; bullies in 5th, victims in 6th/7th, back to bullies.

Op I can't offer much advice for Tau and eldar, but I can give advice on Raven Guard, as they're one of the only armies to make me sweat this edition.

I would heavily advise you to check out the new codex, there are several tricks in there, especially for Raven guard, that will help you against that style of guard list. Heck your basic chapter tactics alone is a huge Boone.

First of all, there is an orbital bombardment strategem that targets a space on the table and rolls to ht anything near it with mortal wounds. This let's you potentially snipe characters. It won't kill a character other than a bog standard commissar in one hit, but it will punish him for bunching up, as any guard player attempting to turtle against an aggressive drop force will potentially have over 10 units in that kind of blast radius. Combine this with snipers and deepstriking threats like inceptors with assault Bolters and you can heavily affect his deployment. This also gives another benefit where he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. If he doesn't spread out, he's fodder for the orital bombardment, but if he does spread out he will lose auras, lose optimal firing lines, and leave openings jump units can exploit.

In addition, Raven guard have access to things that nullify overwatch, I believe it was a relic or warlord trait. I would look into it. Shrike with some vanguard vets rocking lightning claws will do some serious damage as well as potentially swig twice if you save points for the other strategem.

Another thing I found out is apparently space marines have some sort of pyschic ability that can target characters even if they're not the closest unit, essentially a better smite. I had a terminator librarian drop in and almost fry my stormtrooper commander's brain with it and it was a big shock. Your leadership is higher than most characters (which is what we roll off against to see if our heads explode) so it should be decently handy if you can get close enough to use it.

That was just a cursory glace during a game the other day, I'm sure there are other things in there that could help, but I'm not sure what they are yet. I do believe if anyone has the tools to beat guard, it's Raven guard though.

Tournament finished yesterday and the top 2 BAO armies = IG

Placing 9 and 10 were also IG armies.

That's 4 out of the 10 top all IG, more competitive army than another other by a ways - at least in this big tourney.

 Ministry wrote:
Tournament finished yesterday and the top 2 BAO armies = IG

They spammed scions.
Scion spam is quite powerful right now. They're fairly cheap for their 4+ saves, 3+ to-hit, and special weapons ability, though in spite of their 4+ save they're also incredibly fragile-- 71 points for five T3 4+ save models that carry a pair of plasmaguns and a plasma pistol. Less if you give them no voxcaster and thus they take no orders, either. If you can get a charge off with a marine squad that has a sarge with power sword, you can start causing casualties that will force them to lose valuable models very quickly.

It's not easy mind you-- Scion spam is, as noted, quite powerful right now, so you're going to be fighting a tough enemy and a smart player will be able to hurt you hard in spite of you getting the charge off. But It's still doable.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Op I can't offer much advice for Tau and eldar, but I can give advice on Raven Guard, as they're one of the only armies to make me sweat this edition.

I would heavily advise you to check out the new codex, there are several tricks in there, especially for Raven guard, that will help you against that style of guard list. Heck your basic chapter tactics alone is a huge Boone.

First of all, there is an orbital bombardment strategem that targets a space on the table and rolls to ht anything near it with mortal wounds. This let's you potentially snipe characters. It won't kill a character other than a bog standard commissar in one hit, but it will punish him for bunching up, as any guard player attempting to turtle against an aggressive drop force will potentially have over 10 units in that kind of blast radius. Combine this with snipers and deepstriking threats like inceptors with assault Bolters and you can heavily affect his deployment. This also gives another benefit where he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. If he doesn't spread out, he's fodder for the orital bombardment, but if he does spread out he will lose auras, lose optimal firing lines, and leave openings jump units can exploit.

In addition, Raven guard have access to things that nullify overwatch, I believe it was a relic or warlord trait. I would look into it. Shrike with some vanguard vets rocking lightning claws will do some serious damage as well as potentially swig twice if you save points for the other strategem.

Another thing I found out is apparently space marines have some sort of pyschic ability that can target characters even if they're not the closest unit, essentially a better smite. I had a terminator librarian drop in and almost fry my stormtrooper commander's brain with it and it was a big shock. Your leadership is higher than most characters (which is what we roll off against to see if our heads explode) so it should be decently handy if you can get close enough to use it.

That was just a cursory glace during a game the other day, I'm sure there are other things in there that could help, but I'm not sure what they are yet. I do believe if anyone has the tools to beat guard, it's Raven guard though.

This is probably some of the best advice on here.

Thanx everyone for the advice. It looks like I do need more vehicles as they are more durable. I'm still not sure how to handle an Imperial Knight which rips them up along with troops, but I think I have a better handle. I will let you know how it goes.

10 librarians with JP deepstrike and smite the hell out of it. Just kidding, sort of. It would work, but its pretty expensive points wise.

I feel like we've gone back to 5th edition where people couldn't beat Guard. Until GK/Necrons came out, at least.

 Crazyterran wrote:
I feel like we've gone back to 5th edition where people couldn't beat Guard. Until GK/Necrons came out, at least.

We have. Deathstars and scatbikes are gone, so we are back to gunlines :(

Martel732 wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
I feel like we've gone back to 5th edition where people couldn't beat Guard. Until GK/Necrons came out, at least.

We have. Deathstars and scatbikes are gone, so we are back to gunlines :(

Lucky for me, I picked the right colour of space marine to be able to be somewhat competitive!

Deathstars aren't gone, they've just changed shape.

Bring a legion falchion super heavy tank destroyer. Its heavy 2D6 twin volcano cannon with S16 AP-5 D2D6 will atomize the tiny imperial knight. There is always a bigger unit.

EDIT : I forgot, you can reroll failed wound rolls against titanic units.

IKs die to lascannons just fine. No reason to lose your mind.

They do have shields with 5+ invuln save. Which helps against lascannons. But not against smite.

p5freak wrote:
They do have shields with 5+ invuln save. Which helps against lascannons. But not against smite.

I don't know about you, but getting within 18" is what I consider the "danger zone", to quote Archer. Lascannons allow you to do plenty of stand-off damage and are a good investment.

Martel732 wrote:

I don't know about you, but getting within 18" is what I consider the "danger zone", to quote Archer. Lascannons allow you to do plenty of stand-off damage and are a good investment.

I wouldnt mind going in the "danger zone" of 18". 5 Company veterans with JP, storm shields and combi plasmaguns plus a captain with the same loadout, and a sanguinary priest, also with combi plasma, will do plenty of damage to the knight. At 12" they all overload their plasma guns, 14 shots, rerolling 1s. If the knight manages to kill some veterans the priest can revive them.
Lascannons are ok, good range, but D6 damage means 1-6. Two supercharged plasmagun shots are always 4 wounds.

You are really forgetting that the knight might have some buddies.

Martel732 wrote:
You are really forgetting that the knight might have some buddies.

My veteran gang as well.

You want a strong alpha strike.

Raven Guard especially are gonna be tough for guard to shift.

But as it stands, now that you can't bring nothing but storm ravens, a Guard focused army is probably the best in the game.

 Otto von Bludd wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It doesn't have to be poor. They can bring a lot of cheap lascannons.

True, but none will survive turn one.

I wasn't aware that manticores are bad at anti tank.

They survive turn one vs BA anyway. Or any marines for that matter. Marines are back to throw weight problems. Unless they spam ravens, I guess.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Op I can't offer much advice for Tau and eldar, but I can give advice on Raven Guard, as they're one of the only armies to make me sweat this edition.

I would heavily advise you to check out the new codex, there are several tricks in there, especially for Raven guard, that will help you against that style of guard list. Heck your basic chapter tactics alone is a huge Boone.

First of all, there is an orbital bombardment strategem that targets a space on the table and rolls to ht anything near it with mortal wounds. This let's you potentially snipe characters. It won't kill a character other than a bog standard commissar in one hit, but it will punish him for bunching up, as any guard player attempting to turtle against an aggressive drop force will potentially have over 10 units in that kind of blast radius. Combine this with snipers and deepstriking threats like inceptors with assault Bolters and you can heavily affect his deployment. This also gives another benefit where he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. If he doesn't spread out, he's fodder for the orital bombardment, but if he does spread out he will lose auras, lose optimal firing lines, and leave openings jump units can exploit.

In addition, Raven guard have access to things that nullify overwatch, I believe it was a relic or warlord trait. I would look into it. Shrike with some vanguard vets rocking lightning claws will do some serious damage as well as potentially swig twice if you save points for the other strategem.

Another thing I found out is apparently space marines have some sort of pyschic ability that can target characters even if they're not the closest unit, essentially a better smite. I had a terminator librarian drop in and almost fry my stormtrooper commander's brain with it and it was a big shock. Your leadership is higher than most characters (which is what we roll off against to see if our heads explode) so it should be decently handy if you can get close enough to use it.

That was just a cursory glace during a game the other day, I'm sure there are other things in there that could help, but I'm not sure what they are yet. I do believe if anyone has the tools to beat guard, it's Raven guard though.

Well - to add to this. Space marines have one of the best character snipers in the game. A unit of 3 vindicators can opt not to shoot to get 3d3 mortal wounds on every target within 3 inches of a declared point within 24 inches. This could potentially hit 3 or more units including a commissar if they are bunching up.

Aren't the Raven Guard the ones with the -1 to hit outside of like 12 or 18"?

Do you know how brutal that would be for my infantry based guard army to deal with? I barely hit anything as it is! haha.

MrMoustaffa gave some sound advice.

And my AT is quite atrocious, surprisingly to most of my opponents. Unsurprisingly, I can't do much against flyers either. And I always take a Hydra in my TAC lists these days. They are great against units with the fly keyword but actually quite lackluster against flyers.

And I also struggle against 2+ armor saves and models with storm shields. I eventually get through, but I have to put on my thinking cap when I maneuver units around. I recently had a Sanguinary Guard death star hit my lines and the fact they could fly out of combat and over my units allowed them to get to my juicy center. It was a smaller game so I couldn't fill up my deployment zone. Pretty sure Shrike with some termies or deep striking assault oriented units would be quite brutal, provided you can get into combat.