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 Tsol wrote:


I would love for this to be true, but I need to know where in the grenade section it says you should treat grenade weapons as they have the pistol trait.

Again, you're focusing on the wrong rule. Grenades don't care if you're shooting a pistol or a heavy weapon or a titan cannon. All that they care about is that you're shooting.

Are you shooting (no matter what you're shooting)? Then you have qualified the Grenade rule.


Unless you're suggesting that a unit that is shooting pistols is not shooting? It would have been very easy for GW to add (except pistols) to the grenade rule and this would not be an issue. But they did not. They qualified using grenades with one simple question:

Is my unit shooting?

I don't understand. I think I am seeing your argument. It seems that you are saying grenades can always fire, so long as there is an opportunity, regardless of circumstance?

Or are you saying, if a model has a pistol, it may then instead shoot a grenade instead of its pistol. But if it does not have a pistol it then cannot use a grenade, because the pistol is what allows the unit to shoot into melee?

Or are you saying, simply, grenades override the 1" rule despite it not saying explicitly saying so. (this is what I think you are arguing)

The comparison being, pistols explicitly state they ignore the 1" rule. But grenades don't explicitly state, just imply.

Why would they not also state that grenades ignore this rule? Don't get me wrong, GW has screwed up worse than this. But when you have a whole section with weapon types describing exactly what those types do, it seems prudent not to overstretch, and include this which may not be intended. Especially is the very next weapon type grants explicitly the rule exemption you are arguing.

Again, I really, really hope you are right, because I want to use grenades, but I find the argument needing more support.

 Tsol wrote:
I don't understand. I think I am seeing your argument. It seems that you are saying grenades can always fire, so long as there is an opportunity, regardless of circumstance?

Or are you saying, if a model has a pistol, it may then instead shoot a grenade instead of its pistol. But if it does not have a pistol it then cannot use a grenade, because the pistol is what allows the unit to shoot into melee?

Or are you saying, simply, grenades override the 1" rule despite it not saying explicitly saying so. (this is what I think you are arguing)

The comparison being, pistols explicitly state they ignore the 1" rule. But grenades don't explicitly state, just imply.

Why would they not also state that grenades ignore this rule? Don't get me wrong, GW has screwed up worse than this. But when you have a whole section with weapon types describing exactly what those types do, it seems prudent not to overstretch, and include this which may not be intended. Especially is the very next weapon type grants explicitly the rule exemption you are arguing.

Again, I really, really hope you are right, because I want to use grenades, but I find the argument needing more support.

Everyone in the thread is making this issue much more complicated than it has to be. Simply read the first line of the grenade rule, "Each time a unit shoots..."

If, at any time, under any circumstances, you find your unit is shooting, it may use a grenade. The fact that the unit is shooting pistols does not matter. It could be shooting lascannons. It could be shooting dakkaguns. It could be shooting Avenger catapults. It could be shooting a Vulcan Mega Bolter. The grenade rule has no qualifier for weapon type. It simply asks the question, "Is my unit shooting?" If the answer to that question is yes, then the Grenade rule gives you permission for a model to use a grenade.


Edit: Again, as I said before, I don't believe that this is the intended way to play for Grenades. If FAQ'ed, I think they WILL NOT rule the way I am arguing. I am simply pointing out that, RAW, you may use grenades in CC.

The reason I assume they used the wording "Each time a unit shoots, a single model in the unit that is equipped with Grenades
may throw one instead of firing any other weapon." Is for uisng grenades for overwatch or any other undisclosed weapon or shooting event that may occur: think of psykers giving an extra shoothing phase and whatnot or some other special or weird circumstance. I don't think it is to literally mean ignore all shooting rules prior to this statement.

My biggest apprehension to your argument is you're stretching. And not just a small amount. Weapon types explicitly state what that weapon does and I think it may be poor judgement to grant extra abilities not listed in it weapon type because of heavy fundamental literal interpretation, or lack there of.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 puma713 wrote:

 Tsol wrote:
I don't understand. I think I am seeing your argument. It seems that you are saying grenades can always fire, so long as there is an opportunity, regardless of circumstance?

Or are you saying, if a model has a pistol, it may then instead shoot a grenade instead of its pistol. But if it does not have a pistol it then cannot use a grenade, because the pistol is what allows the unit to shoot into melee?

Or are you saying, simply, grenades override the 1" rule despite it not saying explicitly saying so. (this is what I think you are arguing)

The comparison being, pistols explicitly state they ignore the 1" rule. But grenades don't explicitly state, just imply.

Why would they not also state that grenades ignore this rule? Don't get me wrong, GW has screwed up worse than this. But when you have a whole section with weapon types describing exactly what those types do, it seems prudent not to overstretch, and include this which may not be intended. Especially is the very next weapon type grants explicitly the rule exemption you are arguing.

Again, I really, really hope you are right, because I want to use grenades, but I find the argument needing more support.

Everyone in the thread is making this issue much more complicated than it has to be. Simply read the first line of the grenade rule, "Each time a unit shoots..."

If, at any time, under any circumstances, you find your unit is shooting, it may use a grenade. The fact that the unit is shooting pistols does not matter. It could be shooting lascannons. It could be shooting dakkaguns. It could be shooting Avenger catapults. It could be shooting a Vulcan Mega Bolter. The grenade rule has no qualifier for weapon type. It simply asks the question, "Is my unit shooting?" If the answer to that question is yes, then the Grenade rule gives you permission for a model to use a grenade.

I fear you have cornered yourself here. You may need to reiterate. Reading what you've said here, you are actually implying, if models don't have pistols equipped, then they cannot shoot their grenades. Because the only way they could shoot if in melee is if they had a weapon which negated the 1" rule. With your current interpretation, only models with a pistol can use grenades in melee. Would you care to re-explain or reword?

 Tsol wrote:
The reason I assume they used the wording "Each time a unit shoots, a single model in the unit that is equipped with Grenades
may throw one instead of firing any other weapon." Is for uisng grenades for overwatch or any other undisclosed weapon or shooting event that may occur: think of psykers giving an extra shoothing phase and whatnot or some other special or weird circumstance. I don't think it is to literally mean ignore all shooting rules prior to this statement.

My biggest apprehension to your argument is you're stretching. And not just a small amount. Weapon types explicitly state what that weapon does and I think it may be poor judgement to grant extra abilities not listed in it weapon type because of heavy fundamental literal interpretation, or lack there of.

I'm not suggesting that grenades "ignore all shooting rules" or that they are "granted extra abilities". What they DO is they replace a weapon that is currently being shot. One side of the argument is saying that they may not replace pistols. The other side of the argument says that they can. I am simply saying that the Grenade rule does not qualify what type of weapon you're using, only that you're shooting, which it says clearly in the first line.

I don't think that's a stretch, of any amount.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tsol wrote:


I fear you have cornered yourself here. You may need to reiterate. Reading what you've said here, you are actually implying, if models don't have pistols equipped, then they cannot shoot their grenades. Because the only way they could shoot if in melee is if they had a weapon which negated the 1" rule. With your current interpretation, only models with a pistol can use grenades in melee. Would you care to re-explain or reword?

That is absolutely correct. If you don't have pistols (which allow you to shoot in CC), then your unit is not "shooting" to activate the grenade rule. The pistols activate the unit "shooting" while within 1" of a unit. That, then, activates the Grenade rule. "Is my unit shooting?", therefore allowing one model in the unit to replace his pistol with a grenade. If you 'don't have pistols, then you're not shooting in CC to begin with and there is no way for you to activate the Grenade rule.

I have also sent GW an email about the issue. Because I truly hope I am wrong. I want to use grenades in melee and melta bombs, but I think your rules interpretation is wrong.

And I hope they say you're right.

 Tsol wrote:
I have also sent GW an email about the issue. Because I truly hope I am wrong. I want to use grenades in melee and melta bombs, but I think your rules interpretation is wrong.

And I hope they say you're right.

I don't think they will. I think they'll say that you cannot use them. I am simply saying that the RAW as is, allows you to.


And, for what it's worth, emails, Facebook posts (or anything else outside of an offical FAQ) won't hold up here or in a tournament.

Thanks to the way the shooting sequence has been written, the entire situation is already broken from a Rule as Written sense.

While I love watching the poorly formatted sequence being bent even further, splinters flying everywhere under the stress, it clearly is not an intended consequence. I doubt the authors intended for us to exploit half of the Pistol rules in order to piggy-back a grenade toss into the mix. It would have been far easier for them to simply write into the Grenade rule itself that they can be used when the Model is within 1 inch of the Enemy and how to go about doing so. Should one want to take the argument back to 'but the Rule allows this as written' I once more yield the floor to a certain cat that loves pointing out how Assault and Pistols can not work as written.

According to that one cat we wouldnt be able to play the game, the rules are broken.

Anyway, i think, the way the rules are written (RAI not RAW), you could use a grenade. I am using logic and sense here.

"Models cannot target enemy units that are within 1" of friendly models – the risk of hitting your own troops is too great." I believe this refers to friendly units outside of CC, they are probably far away. Shooting from a distance at targets close to your own troops is risky, i agree.

"A model can fire a Pistol even if there are enemy units within 1" of its own unit, but it must target the closest enemy unit. In such circumstances, the model can shoot its Pistol even if other friendly units are within 1" of the same enemy unit."

What is the difference ? The enemy unit in CC is much closer, the closer you are the lower the chance of hitting your own troops. Why not throw a grenade in such circumstances ?

Lets not forget THE MOST IMPORTANT RULE.

The Most Important Rule In a game as detailed and wide-ranging as Warhammer 40,000, there may be times when you are not sure exactly how to resolve a situation that has come up during play. When this happens, have a quick chat with your opponent and apply the solution that makes the most sense to both of you (or seems the most fun!).

Have you seen starship troopers ? Why not throw that grenade at that big nasty tyranid bug, he swallows it, and explodes. Why not stick that grenade somehwere on his exoskeleton and take cover when he blows up, covering you in green slime.

Just use common sense, you don't throw grenades in the middle of a brawl lest you get dismembered.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Is a pistol another weapon? We are talking in circles again. I really can't believe this hasn't come up before here but my Google fu isn't taking me anywhere useful. Anybody else want to jump into the debate?

Yes a pistol is another weapon, but the pistol rule states you can fire a pistol when within 1" of an enemy unit. So when you choose to throw a grenade instead, the rule stops working, because you aren't shooting with a pistol anymore. So no you can't throw a grenade in combat.

P5freak,
The 'can not target a Unit within 1 inch of a friendly' is for all Models, not just those outside of Close Combat, because nothing within the Rule restricts it to only Units outside of Close Combat. It is also the very reason Pistols have a Rule specifically informing us they can fire at Enemy Units within 1 inch. Without such a Rule the Pistol wielding Model would be restricted to shooting at Units further away, even though Pistols clearly are meant to be a shooting attack that can be used within Close Combat.

I would also be very careful about bringing 'real world' reasoning into it, I would highly recommend taking a quick look on the Kill and Wound radius of modern grenades. I lack military training, I will admit, but even I can see the problem with using a weapon that has a 5 meter 'everything around this point is 100% dead' against a foe trying to stab me with a knife. Even the examples you give with bombs strapped to big bugs sound more like a special rule should be put on these weapons so they could be used against Vehicles and Monsterous Creatures. Cause even a anti-tank type explosive is going to have a Kill radius that would make me not want to hit someone over the head with one in Close Combat.

As for the the mention of The Most Important Rule, I will assume that is for the very new people who have never read a Game Workshop Rulebook in the first place. Everyone should already know that players can, and to my advice should, change the rules to make things work a little more fluently. Hell, in the last few editions whole sections of Rules have been replaced with nothing more then a placard stating 'Talk to your Opponents.' My own specialty, Terrain, was the most heavily hit with this new mentality of having the Players write Rules themselves.

PS:
That cat is still correct when it comes to the strict writing of the Rules being broken, all long term players of this game simply nodded their head and said 'you expected any different?'
This is Game Workshop we are talking about, it is a hot mess being written on the fly by a collection of people lacking the ability to talk to each other... and that is being very kind.

JinxDragon wrote:
P5freak,
The 'can not target a Unit within 1 inch of a friendly' is for all Models, not just those outside of Close Combat, because nothing within the Rule restricts it to only Units outside of Close Combat. It is also the very reason Pistols have a Rule specifically informing us they can fire at Enemy Units within 1 inch. Without such a Rule the Pistol wielding Model would be restricted to shooting at Units further away, even though Pistols clearly are meant to be a shooting attack that can be used within Close Combat.

Cant you look beyond the written words, and think about the way they are intended ?

JinxDragon wrote:

I would also be very careful about bringing 'real world' reasoning into it, I would highly recommend taking a quick look on the Kill and Wound radius of modern grenades. I lack military training, I will admit, but even I can see the problem with using a weapon that has a 5 meter 'everything around this point is 100% dead' against a foe trying to stab me with a knife. Even the examples you give with bombs strapped to big bugs sound more like a special rule should be put on these weapons so they could be used against Vehicles and Monsterous Creatures. Cause even a anti-tank type explosive is going to have a Kill radius that would make me not want to hit someone over the head with one in Close Combat.

Didnt you see movies where two guys wrestled each other on the ground, and one pulled the pin of a grenade, stuck it onto the other guy, took cover, grenade exploded, and the other guy died ? Why is it so hard to imagine situations where a grenade in melee would work ?

JinxDragon wrote:

As for the the mention of The Most Important Rule, I will assume that is for the very new people who have never read a Game Workshop Rulebook in the first place. Everyone should already know that players can, and to my advice should, change the rules to make things work a little more fluently. Hell, in the last few editions whole sections of Rules have been replaced with nothing more then a placard stating 'Talk to your Opponents.' My own specialty, Terrain, was the most heavily hit with this new mentality of having the Players write Rules themselves.

THE MOST IMPORTANT RULE is for everyone, not just beginners. Its a game, and its supposed to be fun. Look beyond the written words of the rules, which are pretty much screwed up anyway, as we all know. Come up with a creative way to use that grenade in CC, and do it. And as an opponent, dont be a spoil sport, allow it.

For those advocating the use of grenades in CC, what would you say to this situation:
My model is within 6" of an enemy unit and my model has a flamer. I now choose to throw a grenade instead of firing the flamer. Does my grenade hit automatically?

If you concur that it does not, then the reasoning underpinning the use of the grenade in CC falls apart, too, does it not?

GW responded: they will consider adding my question to the FAQ. No official reponse. As for the comments saying GW reponse dont mean anything, I find amusing. Because I want to know the answer but apparently others just want to be right.

Snugiraffe wrote:
For those advocating the use of grenades in CC, what would you say to this situation:
My model is within 6" of an enemy unit and my model has a flamer. I now choose to throw a grenade instead of firing the flamer. Does my grenade hit automatically?

No.

Snugiraffe wrote:

If you concur that it does not, then the reasoning underpinning the use of the grenade in CC falls apart, too, does it not?

No. The rule for a grenade says you can throw it instead of shooting any other weapon.

Snugiraffe wrote:
For those advocating the use of grenades in CC, what would you say to this situation:
My model is within 6" of an enemy unit and my model has a flamer. I now choose to throw a grenade instead of firing the flamer. Does my grenade hit automatically?

If you concur that it does not, then the reasoning underpinning the use of the grenade in CC falls apart, too, does it not?

Tl;dr - the argument for throwing grenades works if and only if your unit consists of two or more models and at least one model can and does fire its pistol. I think this is what people are hung up on.

Unit consists of Jim and Bob

Jim uses Pistol. He may only shoot at the enemy within 1" if him and Bob.

Unit is now shooting

Bob becomes eligible to throw grenade

Per shooting rules Bob cannot throw grenade at enemy within 1" of allies.

Bob may throw the grenade at an enemy unit farther than 1" away from allies.

In your example there is only Jim and it doesn't apply.

As far as I read, RAW is you can throw a grenade very rarely: when your unit is within 1" of an enemy unit and at least one of your models fires a pistol such that one model may throw a grenade at a unit within the grenades short range but not within 1". As in, so rarely and situationally that I don't know why we are yelling

You cannot use grenades in lieu of firing pistols when within 1" of enemy models. You cannot 'chain' off the pistol rule to throw a grenade, because the pistol rule doesn't give you permission to 'make a shooting attack', it only gives you permission to fire your pistols.

The grenade rule doesnt say anything that any other model must shoot with a pistol to enable the use of a grenade. All it says that you can throw a grenade instead of shooting with any other weapon. A lone character with a pistol could throw a grenade, instead of shooting the pistol.

 puma713 wrote:

 Tsol wrote:


I would love for this to be true, but I need to know where in the grenade section it says you should treat grenade weapons as they have the pistol trait.

Again, you're focusing on the wrong rule. Grenades don't care if you're shooting a pistol or a heavy weapon or a titan cannon. All that they care about is that you're shooting.

Are you shooting (no matter what you're shooting)? Then you have qualified the Grenade rule.

"Q: If a Noise Marine is slain whilst its unit is within 1" of an
enemy unit, can he use his Music of the Apocalypse ability to
shoot the unit that is within 1"?
A: Yes, but only with a Pistol."


From this, clearly you haven't qualified the Grenade rule at all, otherwise they would have said that Noise Marines could only shoot the unit within 1" with a pistol or throw a grenade at it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

p5freak wrote:
The grenade rule doesnt say anything that any other model must shoot with a pistol to enable the use of a grenade. All it says that you can throw a grenade instead of shooting with any other weapon. A lone character with a pistol could throw a grenade, instead of shooting the pistol.

If all it says is that you can throw a grenade instead of shooting any other weapon, then it doesn't say that normal restrictions for using the grenade no longer apply.

Given that there are two possible interpretations here, you have to look for the supplemental evidence to indicate which one is right. The FAQ answer for the Noise Marine indicates that the interpretation that you can't throw a grenade instead of firing a pistol when your unit's within 1" of an enemy unit is correct, and that getting to throw the grenade is not the correct interpretation.

 drone9 wrote:
Grenade reads:

Each time a unit shoots, a single model in the unit that is equipped with Grenades may throw one instead of firing any other weapon.

So the ambiguity here is whether or not this replace the normal restrictions on shooting or just add to them. It's not only about throwing grenades in close combat I guess: if you advanced that turn you can't shot, except assault weapons. Can you replace one of the assault weapon shot with a grenade shot?

lol.. this reminds me of a game I played back in 2nd edition.

My last marine was surrounding by enemies, so I put the frag grenade blast maker over myself and went out with a bang

but seriously, surely the shooting is done in the shooting phase, once you get into CC you are in the fight phase, so there is no shooting, only fights with melee weapons and pistols. Pistols are allowed as these ranged weapons have been given special rules.

Am I the only player who uses WS rather than BS for pistols in CC? I always have it in my mind of someone wielding the pistol into a position where pulling the trigger counts rather than "taking aim".

Basically, what I am saying is that your not shooting anything, so grenades are out.

According to the interpretation that allows this:

Grenades can be used against units within 1". IF the unit also has a pistol and shoots with it.

And the big one that everyone seems to be missing:

Grenades can be used after advancing. IF the unit also has an assault weapon and shoots with it.

Units can not use grenades in this way if they lack pistols/assault weapons. Let me be clear: they supposedly gain these traits from nearby weapons. Likewise, single-model units (ie: characters) can throw grenades in neither of these cases, because then they would not be shooting a pistol or assault weapon. Does any of the above seem entirely ridiculous to you? Good, it should. I really hope no one is thinking this is RAI.

So, is the wording of the rulebook broken? Let's take a look. In section 3.2. of the shooting rules, it is very clearly stated that 'Models cannot target enemy units that are within 1" of friendly models.' This is here, at the start of the shooting rules, so that you understand that this is the basic beahviour of shooting attacks. This is a universal rule that applies to all weapon types until explicitly overriden. There are other universal rules, I summarise them below in the order they appear in the rules:

Shooting unit must not have advanced. [Overriden by assault type]
Shooting unit must not have fallen back. [Overriden by some abilities]
Shooter must not be within 1" of an enemy unit. [Overriden by pistol type]
Target must be in range.
Target must be visible. [Overriden by specific weapons]
Target must not be within 1" of a friendly model. [Overriden by pistol type]

These rules are not reprinted or explicitly referenced in the description of each weapon type because GW assumed the reader is reasonable enough to understand that a rule requires an explicit exemption in order to be ignored. By proving them disastrously wrong you accomplish nothing but minor embarrassment for us all.

Could this have been written more clearly and with less room for people to pick holes? Yes. But GW wanted to write an 8-page ruleset, not an ISO standard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gkos wrote:

Am I the only player who uses WS rather than BS for pistols in CC? I always have it in my mind of someone wielding the pistol into a position where pulling the trigger counts rather than "taking aim".

Basically, what I am saying is that your not shooting anything, so grenades are out.

I think you might be.

Pistols can not be used in the fight phase, they can only be used in your shooting phase. You use BS not WS because it's a shooing attack not a close combat attack.

The pistol rule states it can be fired if an enemy model is within 1". You choose the pistol and then say your using the Grenade rule to shoot instead of the pistol. That's fine. Show me where it states in the grenades rules that it can be used if within 1". It doesn't. Grenades do not get the special rules of the weapon they are replacing. You don't have rapid fire grenades or heavy weapon grenades or assault grenades, so why would you get pistol grenades? It's a simple thing that honesty shouldn't have gone this far. I am sorry if you want to throw a Grenade in close combat it's not doable. Otherwise I get to throw 2 Grenades at 12" due to rapid fire and I get to toss grenades after advancing due to assault.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 drone9 wrote:
Grenade reads:

Each time a unit shoots, a single model in the unit that is equipped with Grenades may throw one instead of firing any other weapon.

So the ambiguity here is whether or not this replace the normal restrictions on shooting or just add to them. It's not only about throwing grenades in close combat I guess: if you advanced that turn you can't shot, except assault weapons. Can you replace one of the assault weapon shot with a grenade shot?

Read the grenade rule. Can you shoot the assault weapon after advancing ? Yes, you can. Is the assault weapon any other weapon ? Yes, it is. Yes, you can throw a grenade if you advanced.

gkos wrote:
but seriously, surely the shooting is done in the shooting phase, once you get into CC you are in the fight phase, so there is no shooting, only fights with melee weapons and pistols. Pistols are allowed as these ranged weapons have been given special rules.

The shooting with pistols in CC happens in the shooting phase. The pistol is a ranged weapon in 8th. It does not give +1 to attack like it did in 7th.

gkos wrote:
Am I the only player who uses WS rather than BS for pistols in CC? I always have it in my mind of someone wielding the pistol into a position where pulling the trigger counts rather than "taking aim".

Then you are doing it wrong. Shooting pistols is BS.

p5freak wrote:
Read the grenade rule. Can you shoot the assault weapon after advancing ? Yes, you can. Is the assault weapon any other weapon ? Yes, it is. Yes, you can throw a grenade if you advanced.

Read the Grenade rule, where does it state it can use the rules of other Weapon Types? All it says is, "instead of". It does not allow you to suddenly switch Weapon Types mid-step and use another Weapon's rules in order to use a Grenade.

If you have a unit of Tacticals in the Shooting Phase with at least one model within 1" of an enemy unit, your choice of Shooting Weapons are Boltgun, Pistol, Grenade. When you go to use the Boltgun, you can't because your unit is engaged. The same thing applies to when you use the Grenade, as the Grenade rules do not allow you to use another Weapon's rules or Type. The only option is the Pistol. As soon as you choose to have the model fire its Grenade, it is blocked by the standard Shooting rules that it does not override.

P5freek,
I can easily read between the lines, but let me ask you a question:
If you are creating a Game System, would you create one that requires people to make assumptions by reading between the lines or would you simply tell them exactly what you intended outright?

While I would be the first to point out that Game Workshop are terrible at writing rules, leading to all sorts of broken situations they clearly did not intend, even I would not say they are so bad they lack basic understanding of communications. They are not cryptic riddle masters here, designing a system filled with 'got-ya' moments for clever people who can decipher the clues and follow the bread crumbs to a very twisted conclusion. They are attempting to write a Rule based system that is straight forward, and with 8th edition they have re-written everything to try and make the game more simple then it has been in the past. So... no... I can logically and rationally conclude that we do not need to guess secret meanings in this Rulebook on the grounds the Authors wanted the system to be better, not worse, then the old editions.

After all, take a look at the whole page instead of taking snippets of information to try and twist and exploit. The authors re-write this entire section, weapon types are handled differently in 8th then they where in 7th, and two weapons that clearly where focused on during this re-write was the concept of Pistols and the concept of Grenades. While grenades where not modified all that much, they function almost the same, pistols received an extensive change when they went from '+1 attack' to what they are now. Reading between those lines screams, very loudly, that they do NOT intend for you to throw a Grenade in Close Combat because they never outright told us that during the re-write.

That choice not to add 'can be used in Close Combat' rules to the Grenade type is enough evidence they never intended for you to use then in Close Combat.


As for Movies:
Movies allow us to suspend reality and replace it with our own conceptions of what should happen, so using 'it happens on movies' when someone is pointing out real world physics seems to flawed to me.

Personally, I can imagine many situations where the explosive radius of a frag grenade would be less of a concern then killing the dozen people surrounding me but that doesn't simply magically allow me to ignore the fact we are operating in a permission based system, which is the default for Games. Given the complex nature of identifying if we are in one of those 'to hell heart I stab at thee' moments, I have concluded that the Authors where unable to write a Rule based system that would correctly allow us to use Grenades in those few rare situations. They only had a choice between 'can always be used in Close Combat' and 'Can never be used in Close Combat' and we clearly can see which side of that decision they are on due to the lack of instructions telling us otherwise.

The Most Important Rule:
I do not give you consent to use this Rule

Those above words was the core of my argument against The Most Important Rule being discussed here, and every single long term poster already knows of this problem: In order for you to evoke The Most Important Rule as a solution to the problem, you have to have the consent of the people involved. This is great if you are discussing something with a single person, who will be willing to grant said consent, but this is a Forum filled with 'opponents' that are more then willing to refuse to grant consent. As you need permision of your opponent for your argument to be correct, the simple act of refusing consent causes every 'The Most Important Rule' argument to fail....

If you want to discuss possible changes to the Rule, which is all The Most Important Rule allows, then I recommend using the 'Proposed Rule' section of the Forum.

Mchaagen wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:
In any case, Noise Marines can all throw their grenades as they die while in CC. GW confirmed it and their rule allows them to shoot within 1". Maybe you can dissect the wording of that rule to see what makes it different.

"Q: If a Noise Marine is slain whilst its unit is within 1" of an
enemy unit, can he use his Music of the Apocalypse ability to
shoot the unit that is within 1"?
A: Yes, but only with a Pistol."

This is from the Chaos Index FAQ. How are you interpreting it in the exact opposite way? Or reference where 'GW confirmed it.'

Why are you going to FAQ without first checking the original rule??? The FAQ answers what the Noise Marine can shoot -at- if it's within 1" of an enemy. That has nothing to do with what I said. The original rule confirms that Noise Marines can shoot or throw grenades while within 1" of an enemy. The only thing the FAQ suggests is that they can't target the unit that is within 1" of them but can still throw grenades or shoot enemies they are not locked in combat with. The question/answer is also not an Errata and does not change the wording of this rule so it remains the same.

Music of the Apocalypse Rule:
"Each time a model in this unit is slain, it is driven to make one last attack before succumbing to its injuries. Do not remove the slain model yet - after the attacking has finished making all its attacks, the slain model can make a shooting attack with one of its ranged weapons, or throw a grenade, even if the model's unit is within 1" of the enemy. The slain model is then removed as a casualty as normal."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 doctortom wrote:

I'd say this shows that GW doesn't want any shenanigans with grenades when a model's unit is within 1" of an enemy unit.

What it shows is that the wording of a rule is what's important to understanding its function. Break it down piece by piece and you realize that you CAN shoot things while within 1" of an enemy unit. You simply cannot shoot the unit you're within 1" of unless you're using a pistol. I told you guys to break down the rule wording to see how it differs from the other rules.

 Arkaine wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
I'd say this shows that GW doesn't want any shenanigans with grenades when a model's unit is within 1" of an enemy unit.

What it shows is that the wording of a rule is what's important to understanding its function. Break it down piece by piece and you realize that you CAN shoot things while within 1" of an enemy unit. You simply cannot shoot the unit you're within 1" of unless you're using a pistol. I told you guys to break down the rule wording to see how it differs from the other rules.

Or more like, if you break a rule up in to pieces and ignore the whole, you can create shenanigans.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
I'd say this shows that GW doesn't want any shenanigans with grenades when a model's unit is within 1" of an enemy unit.

What it shows is that the wording of a rule is what's important to understanding its function. Break it down piece by piece and you realize that you CAN shoot things while within 1" of an enemy unit. You simply cannot shoot the unit you're within 1" of unless you're using a pistol. I told you guys to break down the rule wording to see how it differs from the other rules.

Or more like, if you break a rule up in to pieces and ignore the whole, you can create shenanigans.

Which thankfully isn't what's being done here. Breaking down the rule is another way of saying something like parse the verb or comprehend the meaning of the sentence.

GW's own words concerning this ability are:

"Q: Can a Noise Marine that is slain use his Music of the
Apocalypse ability to shoot any viable target, or does it have to
target the unit that killed him?
A: It can shoot at any viable target."

Keywords: VIABLE TARGET! A rule that grants you permission to shoot while within 1" of an enemy does not grant you permission to shoot -at- an enemy within 1". Models cannot target those except with a pistol.