Tor Gaming closing too

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**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

silent25 wrote:

Ouch, this is a bruising year for the small guy. Heck even the big guys. Cool Mini Or Not reported a massive dive in miniature sales for 2016-2017. Down 2/3rds from the previous year and they have unique and interesting lines that should differentiate them.

But if ICV2 is to be believed, sale of miniatures are up 20%, at least in North America. The money is going somewhere.

*edit* For those saying material costs don't matter. When you company is treading water or growing just with inflation, material costs going from 2% to 4% can ruin you.

Actually CMONs minis business was flat but they spent almost $1 million in buying out the IP for The Others, so no growth but given the issues they've had getting stock for Dark Age and Wrath of Kings (and distribution issues for both in the UK too) it's not too much of a surprise

**Buzzsaw**

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
silent25 wrote:
...

Actually CMONs minis business was flat but they spent almost $1 million in buying out the IP for The Others, so no growth but given the issues they've had getting stock for Dark Age and Wrath of Kings (and distribution issues for both in the UK too) it's not too much of a surprise

Not to hijack the thread, but I has impressed with some of the initial WoK miniatures (I backed the KS... uh, whenever that was), but I haven't really seen a lot of talk about the game for some time.

Then again, I have been trying to figure out what is going on with Privateer Press, and it seems that the media environment for a lot of miniature games is rather fractured at the moment. But this may simply be my poor grasp of the scene after being 'distracted'.

**krazynadechukr**

I've always wondered when I see new game and/or miniature kickstarters almost evey day, if they've been "watering down the well" for the established companies. How much, if any, impact do you think all these various kickstarters had on the downfall of these miniature companies folding?

**Ketara**

krazynadechukr wrote:
I've always wondered when I see new game and/or miniature kickstarters almost evey day, if they've been "watering down the well" for the established companies. How much, if any, impact do you think all these various kickstarters had on the downfall of these miniature companies folding?

I'm wondering why you just copy pasted exactly the same line in two different threads. Wouldn't one do?

**krazynadechukr**

Ketara wrote:
krazynadechukr wrote:
I've always wondered when I see new game and/or miniature kickstarters almost evey day, if they've been "watering down the well" for the established companies. How much, if any, impact do you think all these various kickstarters had on the downfall of these miniature companies folding?

I'm wondering why you just copy pasted exactly the same line in two different threads. Wouldn't one do?

Two threads, one question. Like two girls one cup!

**silent25**

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
silent25 wrote:

Ouch, this is a bruising year for the small guy. Heck even the big guys. Cool Mini Or Not reported a massive dive in miniature sales for 2016-2017. Down 2/3rds from the previous year and they have unique and interesting lines that should differentiate them.

But if ICV2 is to be believed, sale of miniatures are up 20%, at least in North America. The money is going somewhere.

*edit* For those saying material costs don't matter. When you company is treading water or growing just with inflation, material costs going from 2% to 4% can ruin you.

Actually CMONs minis business was flat but they spent almost $1 million in buying out the IP for The Others, so no growth but given the issues they've had getting stock for Dark Age and Wrath of Kings (and distribution issues for both in the UK too) it's not too much of a surprise

Reporting revenue doesn't work that way. It's straight up how much money was made before expenses. And why would they charge the expense of acquiring a board game IP against miniature sales? I don't see that anywhere in the report beyond a single line that they paid $895K for the rights. The fact is they only made $189K on miniature sales last year down from $675. Even big companies that appear to know what they are doing otherwise are struggling with miniature game sales.

Am curious about PP. Their booth didn't appear that busy at GenCon, but that was on Saturday and the buying wave may have already passed. WMH play has died off a lot after the initial release of MK3 and most the people I know who jumped in abandoned it. Plus with their most recent faction release, it feels like they are struggling for ideas.

**NAVARRO**

Does CMON separate between boardgames and wargames? I wonder if when they sell, say a box of zombicide if that is part of their miniatures sales.
Did not see much of a presence of wrath kings or dark age on salute apart from wayland games store so its not like they are pushing these games to much over here.

With that said I also struggled to find any Relics at salute, its probably quite an investment to bring in stock and set a stand but that does create the necessary buzz to keep things going.

PP new faction is like something you would expect to see from Wyrd not PP. Rather than lack of ideas I think the deal breaker is that they dropped the metal miniatures for other materials and some of the casting on them is disappointing, yet they still charge premium prices. So the quality is not there for me anymore. I do get the feeling they are in trouble since you don't see the usual buzz around new releases anymore.

GW seems to be gathering a lot of interest though.

**John Prins**

Elbows wrote:

My personal feeling is that a lot of companies try too hard to create a brand new game and unique IP where in reality they should have started with cool miniatures/terrain, etc. You see a ton of small time miniatures companies still in business because they simply sell minis - their fate is not tied to a game or an IP. This reduces the workload a ton as well.

This is my take as well. We are in a bubble as far as miniatures wargames is concerned, and the market can only really support so many different games without fracturing the player base beyond a useful sample size. We were bound to see a contraction of the smaller companies sooner or later. I'm surprised by Spartan going down, but I wasn't paying attention to how they were running their business, it seems they definitely lacked focus.

**silent25**

NAVARRO wrote:
Does CMON separate between boardgames and wargames? I wonder if when they sell, say a box of zombicide if that is part of their miniatures sales.
Did not see much of a presence of wrath kings or dark age on salute apart from wayland games store so its not like they are pushing these games to much over here.

Orlando posted CMON info in another thread a few weeks back:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/735191.page

Boardgames make up 98% of their revenue, so mini war games is minuscule.

**Cyporiean**

Honestly we probably could have kept going for a while longer, as I did enjoy the sisyphean aspect of it.

But personal, financial, and medical issues are the main reason for OTL's closure. If our situation improves we'll probably come back, but I can't say for sure that will happen.

**MLaw**

This sucks. Has me wondering about the ones that post about needing sales to pay rent regularly like Andy from Heresy..

As to blaming GW.. I don't. I blame Kickstarters and the like. People are ignoring existing products to buy the exact same stuff from either CMON or Reaper or some guy who has never made miniatures in his life but thinks he can because money??? So companies that have similar products get overlooked. Take a look at Armorcast, Scotia Grendel, Old Glory, Black Scorpion, etc etc.. Someone runs a terrain kickstarter or superheroes, or pirates, or whatever.. but all that stuff is available.

Why would people look that way?
Shiny model syndrome (new is always better!)
Cheap plastic bulk models from China

GW is a lot of things.. and they may even be evil but hanging this on them is bs at best

**DarkTraveler777**

MLaw wrote:
This sucks. Has me wondering about the ones that post about needing sales to pay rent regularly like Andy from Heresy..

As to blaming GW.. I don't. I blame Kickstarters and the like. People are ignoring existing products to buy the exact same stuff from either CMON or Reaper or some guy who has never made miniatures in his life but thinks he can because money??? So companies that have similar products get overlooked. Take a look at Armorcast, Scotia Grendel, Old Glory, Black Scorpion, etc etc.. Someone runs a terrain kickstarter or superheroes, or pirates, or whatever.. but all that stuff is available.

While I don't disagree that KS glut is a factor, I do think it is a bit ridiculous to knock KS campaigns providing new or innovative offerings versus retreading to the same manufacturers over and over.

For example, Armorcast. I love Armorcast, and have bought their stuff for years, but that is the problem. Their catalog is largely items that have been around for a decade or more. So if a Kickstarter comes out with rivers that are interesting or innovative over the rivers that Armorcast has been selling since the late 90 or early 2000's, I am sorry, but the new stuff is going to get my attention.

I am less familiar with the other vendors you mention, but just a quick glance at Scotia Grendel shows me a lot of out dated stuff.

There are problems with CMON and Reaper and even PP using KS to pre-sale their games, no argument here. But the idea that Kickstarters in general are pulling money from "worthy" vendors who are themselves hawking outdated stuff is a bit hard to accept.

For what little good KS does, it brings innovation.

**MLaw**

DarkTraveler777 wrote:
MLaw wrote:
This sucks. Has me wondering about the ones that post about needing sales to pay rent regularly like Andy from Heresy..

As to blaming GW.. I don't. I blame Kickstarters and the like. People are ignoring existing products to buy the exact same stuff from either CMON or Reaper or some guy who has never made miniatures in his life but thinks he can because money??? So companies that have similar products get overlooked. Take a look at Armorcast, Scotia Grendel, Old Glory, Black Scorpion, etc etc.. Someone runs a terrain kickstarter or superheroes, or pirates, or whatever.. but all that stuff is available.

While I don't disagree that KS glut is a factor, I do think it is a bit ridiculous to knock KS campaigns providing new or innovative offerings versus retreading to the same manufacturers over and over.

For example, Armorcast. I love Armorcast, and have bought their stuff for years, but that is the problem. Their catalog is largely items that have been around for a decade or more. So if a Kickstarter comes out with rivers that are interesting or innovative over the rivers that Armorcast has been selling since the late 90 or early 2000's, I am sorry, but the new stuff is going to get my attention.

I am less familiar with the other vendors you mention, but just a quick glance at Scotia Grendel shows me a lot of out dated stuff.

There are problems with CMON and Reaper and even PP using KS to pre-sale their games, no argument here. But the idea that Kickstarters in general are pulling money from "worthy" vendors who are themselves hawking outdated stuff is a bit hard to accept.

For what little good KS does, it brings innovation.

The innovative stuff isn't what I was referring to.. As I said.. it's the items that are just more of the same. Goblins, dragons, dungeon terrain, etc.. Ristul's Market has some awesome dungeon scatter terrain. Didn't stop Mantic from doing more of that. Hey, I bought into it too.. and in retrospect I do feel bad that I didn't invest that money in keeping some of these other companies around. Yeah, some of the products are out dated.. but then again.. 80%+ of Bones are old outdated models. Even ignoring that.. how many different types of goblins do we need? Check out Kobblestone.. amazing buildings.. they're just languishing. Dungeonstone.. they're doing the 3d dungeon thing at a really reasonable rate too. If something is innovated, hey by all means go all in.. but if you need scatter terrain for RPGs.. I mean.. there's a ton of that out there.

I do want to add though.. KS isn't specifically responsible.. it's a factor.. and I think I overstated that. Obviously there are other considerations.

**DarkTraveler777**

Ah okay I misunderstood your position a bit.

Fair points, and I don't necessarily disagree.

**RiTides**

Cyporiean wrote:
Honestly we probably could have kept going for a while longer, as I did enjoy the sisyphean aspect of it.

But personal, financial, and medical issues are the main reason for OTL's closure. If our situation improves we'll probably come back, but I can't say for sure that will happen.

Sorry to hear that, but you've got to have your priorities straight - and health definitely comes first!

I do think the environment in general makes it harder for the little guys to succeed at retail at the moment (and conversely, still pretty easy to launch via Kickstarter). That continued success seems like a valley that only the bigger players get through. I'm not sure what can be done about it, though - our gaming group has had the same "game system overload!" feeling that a lot of people have described here. Counts-as creations do seem like a possible route, though (perhaps in conjunction with other releases).

**warboss**

Cyporiean wrote:
Honestly we probably could have kept going for a while longer, as I did enjoy the sisyphean aspect of it.

But personal, financial, and medical issues are the main reason for OTL's closure. If our situation improves we'll probably come back, but I can't say for sure that will happen.

Someone on your Facebook page commented that running kickstarter campaigns even if successful was incredibly stressful. If you don't mind, could you explain why that was so compared with your difficulties in breaking into the retail channels?

**Cyporiean**

warboss wrote:
Cyporiean wrote:
Honestly we probably could have kept going for a while longer, as I did enjoy the sisyphean aspect of it.

But personal, financial, and medical issues are the main reason for OTL's closure. If our situation improves we'll probably come back, but I can't say for sure that will happen.

Someone on your Facebook page commented that running kickstarter campaigns even if successful was incredibly stressful. If you don't mind, could you explain why that was so compared with your difficulties in breaking into the retail channels?

That someone was me.

On The Lamb is really only two people, myself and my husband. I handle pretty much every business aspect and he handles the casting/labor; and we both do the writing and design work. So when we run a Kickstarter its just me that is doing all the math, setting up everything for it, answering all the questions/comments/hate mail, and watching the numbers go up and down. Watching the numbers go up and down was a roller coaster for my depression and anxiety. Between that and the stress of trying to herd cats (freelancers) in an attempt to deliver on time is honestly too much.

We could have run another one, have Patrick do some more great sculpts, and make a couple of bucks. But with the last year I've had, I don't think I can do that without ending up in the hospital.

**DrNo172000**

NAVARRO wrote:
Not to sure about the "mismanagement" comments, I mean the fact that we may disagree with their policies both these companies have been trading for some years now, Tor IIRC was 7 and Spartan 10?
Small companies that are mismanaged do not survive that long trading and usually fold in their first 2 or 3 years so something changed.

I tend to believe that the big change these past years is the saturation of boardgames kick-starters they are sucking sooo much hobby money its not funny. Brexit? Well still early days since we are still In the EU the really big kick in the nuts will be coming very soon so brace yourselves.

Impossible to know really, (though I heard Geek Chic folded from poor cash flow management, spending lots of money on non-necessities and such). I would say this though as a company grows it's got to continuously look at it's management and adjust it. The same sort of management that made you succeesful during the start up phase is likely to do you know good in far later stages. Again no way to tell, it could just be bad luck too, sad as that might sound.

Always be pivoting.

**warboss**

Cyporiean wrote:

That someone was me.

On The Lamb is really only two people, myself and my husband. I handle pretty much every business aspect and he handles the casting/labor; and we both do the writing and design work. So when we run a Kickstarter its just me that is doing all the math, setting up everything for it, answering all the questions/comments/hate mail, and watching the numbers go up and down. Watching the numbers go up and down was a roller coaster for my depression and anxiety. Between that and the stress of trying to herd cats (freelancers) in an attempt to deliver on time is honestly too much.

We could have run another one, have Patrick do some more great sculpts, and make a couple of bucks. But with the last year I've had, I don't think I can do that without ending up in the hospital.

So you're saying my source is reliable then?

I suppose different folks handle different situations differently (rolls natural 1 on alliteration check!). I think the years of being mostly ignored by the retail chain you described would have worn me down long before the rush/frenzy of a successful kickstarter would have lifted my spirits but it's stressful either way. Thanks for the clarification though.

**Cyporiean**

warboss wrote:
Cyporiean wrote:

That someone was me.

On The Lamb is really only two people, myself and my husband. I handle pretty much every business aspect and he handles the casting/labor; and we both do the writing and design work. So when we run a Kickstarter its just me that is doing all the math, setting up everything for it, answering all the questions/comments/hate mail, and watching the numbers go up and down. Watching the numbers go up and down was a roller coaster for my depression and anxiety. Between that and the stress of trying to herd cats (freelancers) in an attempt to deliver on time is honestly too much.

We could have run another one, have Patrick do some more great sculpts, and make a couple of bucks. But with the last year I've had, I don't think I can do that without ending up in the hospital.

So you're saying my source is reliable then? I suppose different folks handle different situations differently (rolls natural 1 on alliteration check!). I think the years of being mostly ignored by the retail chain you described would have worn me down long before the rush/frenzy of a successful kickstarter would have lifted my spirits but it's stressful either way. Thanks for the clarification though.

I don't know how reliable of a source I am, I'm fairly sure all of the release dates I leaked ended up being wrong.

The lack of retail support was rough, but I ran a store before we formed OTL so I can understand some of the issues that they have with taking chances. About 5 or so years ago I stopped trying to entice distributors and really stopped worrying about getting into shops. We still ended up in a handful of shops over the years.

**Pacific**

TwilightSparkles wrote:
Jon Garrett wrote:
I'd guess Brexit has caused problems with their supplies. It seems to to be the main problem business' over here are having - the dollar and Euro are both strong to the pound, so unless you source locally...

But it's OK guys! We've totally taken our borders back! Sure, immigration is down mostly because immigrants no longer see it as worth coming and we could have put those super important laws in without crippling our economy and throwing away our voice in global politics. But we totally did it!

Unfortunately, we'll probably continue to see this trend. UK companies are gonna take a hammering over Brexit and an uncertain pound. Games Workshop does enough business in America that, unless trade talks go badly (always possible with the Great Orange One in power) they should be fine, but smaller companies are gonna take a spanking.

Erm how about nope?

Firstly UK companies coined it by selling goods overseas post brexit, with many running specific ads targeting non UK buyers.

Secondly, Tor reduced their range last year so that all their units were in bigger more expensive boxes, so all of a sudden you had no option to buy minimum units and had to buy max units. They also doubled their starter box costs and just added tokens no one asked for. The owner pretty much put down any negative comments on their Facebook page and insisted on strict rules for entry into the new Relics rules test, not to mention the near impossible to fulfill for little reward ranger scheme. Releasing a new version of the rules within a year of the old ones probably didn't help things.

Spartan, where do you start? They paid a load to get Halo then drive the space combat version into the ground with high prices and a shoehorned ruleset, then repeated the problem with ground command but added crazy insane pricing as well, followed by a super botched launch where a lot of uk retailers didn't get the game on time, leading to cancelled orders, hence dropping the range. In general Spartan's starters were GW priced without the quality/quantity and they were focused on the ne t shiny new game within months of releasing the last one. Plus invested in idiocy like £75 resin halo flyers that replaced templates and made forgeworld look cheap. Like Tor, they were resistant to negative feedback and so were a rabid core of the fan base who enjoyed rolling 40 dice to resolve a combat. If the rest of Spartans demo team were like the two I met then no wonder they didn't grow their hobby because these two basically just set the game up instore and played each other without making any attempt to involve anyone else.

Many good uk companies thrive eg Infamy, Bad Squiddo, Ttcombat. They make good products and listen.

Thanks for the informed post. You have to look at the specifics here, to explain why Relic and Spartan have failed and other GB miniature and game companies continue to prosper.

Undoubtedly think you have had a renaissance of GW with 40k recently. But, looking at the Relic range how much cross-over with the likes of AoS and 40k was there? A friend of mine owned a load of the little puppet-type redcoats, lovely little character miniatures. But I can't imagine even a tiny % of GW game players even knowing of the game, let alone stopping playing because of a renewed 40k 8th edition (I'm sure Relic was well on its way by the time that game came out)

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

Well it looks like Relics players have caught a break as TTcombat (the gaming arm of Troll Trader who have already got the Carnevalle IP from Vesper On ) have picked up Relics

TTCombat are excited to announce our new venture. Today we’re unveiling the acquisition of Tor Gaming’s fantastic game Relics.

We’ve been fans of Relics for a long time, and were delighted to keep the legacy of Tor’s game going for existing fans and many new ones we hope to bring into the fold in the coming months and years.

Tor have had trouble getting their game the right platform to flourish on, and we believe that with the avid customer base for TTCombat, RUMBLESLAM, and Carnevale, we may well have found that home. Over the coming weeks we’ll be cementing a deal with Tor and moving production of their miniatures over to our in-house production facilities here in Cornwall, UK. With our large distribution network and links to stores up and down the country and the world, we’ll be able to get Relics into the forefront of independent gaming circles.

Our design team will be working with the existing designers to bring plenty of exciting developments and updated designs to the world that Tor Gaming created, and hopefully introducing many new players to this wonderfully unique game.

Until then, we ask for a little patience while we move everything over and are able to provide the high quality of service you expect from TTCombat. Before long we’ll all be exploring the world of Relicia together.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
i think the in house casting is going to be the biggest help, spinning stock as and when its needed will mean better margins (so real distribution is a possibility again which it seems it wasn't any more for Tor)

whether it comes back with a bang like they're trying with Carnevale we'll wait and see

**Tamereth**

Great news for fans of relics. TT Combat feels like a good fit for a small scale game like this.
I can only hope dystopian wars is so lucky as to be picked up by somebody like this.

**NAVARRO**

Now thats some good news and seems like a nice fit. Fan of both companies products really.

**aku-chan**

If TTcombat do the same good job revamping Relics as they appear to be doing to Carnivale, I'll certainly be revisiting my Puppet army!

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

TTCombat have now got (some of) the Relics line available again here with some price reductions

https://ttcombat.com/collections/relics

**Ben2**

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
TTCombat have now got (some of) the Relics line available again here with some price reductions

https://ttcombat.com/collections/relics

Certainly priced like they want to sell them. It will be interesting to see how the range develops.

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

Well looks like some scenery is in the works

TTCombat shared Tor Gaming's post.

Some terrain we are working on for the Relics Scenery range