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The problem with Scions is that basically you are discouraged to use them on foot. Why I'm gonna put them in my nice Tauroxes Primes, when I can deepstrike them? I have 20 scions that run in 2 Tauroxes, and to be honest, i always feel a little stupid doing that.

GW has shown that even in 8th, with reivers, they are willing to give models some extra equipement that grants them rules, with the grapling hooks or the grav-chutes costing +2 ppm for deepstrike or infiltrate. Scions should have the same.

Tbh, I think it makes more sense to run them in the transports given they can't RF out of deepstrike with their main lasguns.

Maybe if Scion Valks granted then deepstrike instead. The tax of a huge flyer would probably discourage them, but then they're turned into Elysians.

ross-128 wrote:If we made scions as expensive per model as Sternguard in a droppod though, would people really shell out 40 points for a T3/4+ model?

No, but they're amongst the cheapest and most efficient sources of deep strike.

Really, they need to be at least on the order of 30-35PPM with plasma, not 22.

The only thing comparable in efficiency to Scions are Cult Ambush Genestealers, really.

Actually the toughness or lack thereof of Scions is basically a non-factor, because of deep strike.

SilverAlien wrote:Tbh, I think it makes more sense to run them in the transports given they can't RF out of deepstrike with their main lasguns.

The Hot-Shot ones aren't the ones that matter, it's the Plasmagun ones.

And the math of it is that it's always better to DS your Scions if you can. You have more shots earlier from dropping anyway, and better survivability while getting there [after all, if you're not on the board, that's better than having a transport], and

I know it doesn't matter, but it really bothers me that they are little like a nanometer from doubling their shots. Like deepstriking with the new plague terminators and their 9" plague flamer weapon, and imagining the fire literally burning off the front rank's eyebrows as my marine stands totally still.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

ross-128 wrote:If we made scions as expensive per model as Sternguard in a droppod though, would people really shell out 40 points for a T3/4+ model?

No, but they're amongst the cheapest and most efficient sources of deep strike.

Really, they need to be at least on the order of 30-35PPM with plasma, not 22.

The only thing comparable in efficiency to Scions are Cult Ambush Genestealers, really.

Actually the toughness or lack thereof of Scions is basically a non-factor, because of deep strike.

SilverAlien wrote:Tbh, I think it makes more sense to run them in the transports given they can't RF out of deepstrike with their main lasguns.

The Hot-Shot ones aren't the ones that matter, it's the Plasmagun ones.

And the math of it is that it's always better to DS your Scions if you can. You have more shots earlier from dropping anyway, and better survivability while getting there [after all, if you're not on the board, that's better than having a transport], and

GW should have taken grav chutes away from scions, and then made it the scion stratagem (like ravenguard).

Boom. Fixed.

Yeah, internal balance is good. Good for the IG, they've got a 'competitive' army with decent internal balance. Give every codex the same treatment, and i'd be happy. Assuming they all have decent external balance, as well.

Actually taking the Tempesuts units out of the list of allowed units to keep the Doctrines, would go a long way towards balancing them. You would need a completely separate detachment for them.

Credit where credit is due, the "new GW" did a great job. I may not agree with all of their decisions (Catachans having the best vehicles), but the fact that they finally rewarded IG players for playing each of the different regiments is awesome. I love it.

I want to take a moment to compliment the layout on this one ... units are where they should be. HQ up front, then troops, then Elites, and so on, with no errant unit placed in the wrong section. Everything makes sense to be right where it is.

Also, the kitbash highlight is *fantastic* and I really hope that they not only do it in future books but go a step forward and detail the parts/how to make your own. Finding out how kits can be interchanged is a major step for players early in the hobby and having some examples like that is just wonderful to see.

"if" it comes up? Hold on, let me arrange dome guys... There, it has now come up. Where is the faq?

If you think you won't see this in tournaments from day 1, you're naive.

Wakshaani wrote:
I want to take a moment to compliment the layout on this one ... units are where they should be. HQ up front, then troops, then Elites, and so on, with no errant unit placed in the wrong section. Everything makes sense to be right where it is.

Also, the kitbash highlight is *fantastic* and I really hope that they not only do it in future books but go a step forward and detail the parts/how to make your own. Finding out how kits can be interchanged is a major step for players early in the hobby and having some examples like that is just wonderful to see.

I agree so much on the kitbash part seeing those nobles made me want to start collecting the bits I needed. It was a great section, really looking forward to GW doing more stuff like that in the future. The conversion stuff people come up with is simultaneously the worst and best part of the hobby.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
However if Militarium Tempestus forbids people from using regiment doctrines with their troops (haven't checked yet) then this might give veterans a role, albeit still extremely narrow one (most people would probably just run a separate vanguard detachment with the scions, commissars and a tempestor prime).

Taking scions in a cadian/whatever detachment doesn't remove the cadian doctrines. However you want to take the scions in their own detachment so that they get their storm troopers doctrine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

I don't have my rulebook in front of me right now-- is there a limit on how many detachments you can take in an ordinary battleforged game? IIRC there was a limit of three, but that might be me remembering a local tournament rule.

I dont think that is a book thing.

P214

There are guidelines for matched play limiting detachments based on points.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Really, they need to be at least on the order of 30-35PPM with plasma, not 22.

30+pts would be waaay too much for T3 models with 4+ saves.

SilverAlien wrote:
Tbh, I think it makes more sense to run them in the transports given they can't RF out of deepstrike with their main lasguns.

Would of made sense if scions didnt have free access to special weapons.

you end up thinking about the extra dudes as extra wounds for your special weapons guy.

 vipoid wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Really, they need to be at least on the order of 30-35PPM with plasma, not 22.

30+pts would be waaay too much for T3 models with 4+ saves.

Not with free deep strike. They're just as good as hellblasters where it counts. Who cares about durability of individual models in 8th? It's about body count.

Martel732 wrote:
Not with free deep strike.

They already pay for deep strike. Just not the ludicrous amount you apparently want them to pay.

A Space Marine pays 3pts for a Jump Pack - which gives them the same deep strike ability as Scions *and* doubles their movement.

Yet you apparently want a Veteran to pay about 10pts just for deep strike.

Martel732 wrote:
Who cares about durability of individual models in 8th? It's about body count.

Then you should be blaming the core mechanics and trying to fix them - not trying to get one specific unit shelved.

Yes that's probably better overall.

SilverAlien wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Ok. All of this is reasonable criticism and more in the tone of this thread. I can agree with many things you said, like Veterans. Personally, at this point I think veterans should be merged with Tempestus and their options merged too, with the option to take cheaper Scions without deepstrike.

Yeah, frankly I was just assuming people were already on the same thread so I assumed the praise was being directed at... other areas. Which is why I should read threads more closely and not just assume things.

Honestly, unless they plan to bring back more unique units for regiments, I'd want the veterans to stay as a way to show off what makes the army unique. Melee warriors, sneaky reconnaissance experts, expert marksmen, demolitions experts, chemically/cybernetically boosted soldiers, or even just particularly well equipped line troopers.

But for some reason GW isn't really on board with that. Which is a shame, I think guard of all armies should have something like this to represent its sheer variety.

That'd be awesome, yes. That and...Rough Riders. Bonus cookie points for mount options.

The Codex comes at the right time, Death Guard talk and trench warfare talk as their theme got my Guard juices flowing again. So I need help in line with the topic:

My army has two main contingents (once I use the new Codex to combine my Mordians, Catachans and DKOK). I think I'll try to make the best out of the surprisingly cool doctrines and disappointing lack of really custom vets by running a Catachan detachment with many flamers, Straken and S4 dudes to represent my poison-proof gland-warrior veterans aka Sergeant Stone clones with chem flamers - formerly plastic Catachans, but now I deem their stock arms and some heads too terrible and kitbash them. Then a detachment with the melee weapons-only guys as Death Cult Assassins and a priest (Magus Biologus) to adjust their stim doses and fix them, since the other detachment would lose its rules with them in it, right. And one guy who really reacted badly to the combat drug implants, the organ implantations, the steroids and the psych-indoctrination as an Eversor. The main detachment could be my trench lover guardsmen and tanks with a fitting Regiment keyword. It'd work that way, right? I haven't really delved into Imperial soup so far. I could use the melee guys as counta-as ogryns instead, but they'd be way too small. Too bad Guard can't run real CQC squads right now. Can they?!

Martel732 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Really, they need to be at least on the order of 30-35PPM with plasma, not 22.

30+pts would be waaay too much for T3 models with 4+ saves.

Not with free deep strike. They're just as good as hellblasters where it counts. Who cares about durability of individual models in 8th? It's about body count.

Scions are actually the most durable. The T3/4+ is a lie, because you can't kill what's not on the board. That's part of what makes them good, since they will almost always be in the optimum position for their first salvo and they can never die before firing their first salvo.


Also, durability counts a lot. T makes the most difference, particularly going from 3 to 4.


Heavy Infantry is bad because they're not tough. Heavy Infantry takes fire from antitank weapons because it has good saves and multiple wounds, making them effectively the weakest vehicles, not the strongest infantry.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 argonak wrote:


GW should have taken grav chutes away from scions, and then made it the scion stratagem (like ravenguard).

Boom. Fixed.

Yes, or made them a significant cost upgrade.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Not with free deep strike.

They already pay for deep strike. Just not the ludicrous amount you apparently want them to pay.

A Space Marine pays 3pts for a Jump Pack - which gives them the same deep strike ability as Scions *and* doubles their movement.

Yet you apparently want a Veteran to pay about 10pts just for deep strike.

I do. Because that's why they're very far above the power curve.

Do Assault Marines carry Plasmaguns?

Assault Marines get 2 Chainsword attacks, already 50% as effective as a non-overcharged plasmagun [to make no mention of overcharging the thing], and only have a 27% chance of even getting to use them.

Note that the Drop Pod effectively is 10PPM for the Deep Strike rule on any SM unit with a basic infantry chassis.

Regardless of all the hyperbole scions like conscripts will continue to be used by inperium as they are still the most optimal unit for their roles in the entire imperium. Just like primaris psykers and astropaths are also the most efficient in the imperium for thier role.
All of the above units are the best becuase they are the cheapest and most efficient for the cost.

Question. I have an opportunity to perhaps start a krieg army, but don't have the forge world book in front of me. Is krieg really limited in what they can take? And can they not use the codex rules for guard stuff?

I just really like their death riders, but I don't think there's a way for me to run them without ruining regiment status in the upcoming codex. So then I thought maybe I can make my entire tank army krieg. But is krieg even able to take tank commanders, manticores, astropaths, hellhounds, valkyries, and superheavies? I heard krieg can't take flyers, and their standard guardsmen cost 50% more. What gives?

Yes, you can't make that stuff kreig regiment so it needs to go in a separate detachment.

I'll admit to being rather less enthused, having realised that Lord Commissars can't take any of the Regiment Warlord Traits.

 vipoid wrote:
I'll admit to being rather less enthused, having realised that Lord Commissars can't take any of the Regiment Warlord Traits.

Well that’s a bit of a shame, but I guess it is rather fluffy. Commissars aren’t normally in charge of a regiment , they’re outside the normal command chain.

Does,anyone know if commissars can take chainswords now?

 argonak wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
I'll admit to being rather less enthused, having realised that Lord Commissars can't take any of the Regiment Warlord Traits.

Well that’s a bit of a shame, but I guess it is rather fluffy. Commissars aren’t normally in charge of a regiment , they’re outside the normal command chain.

Yeah, it's just really annoying because it ruined the build I'd wanted (I'd been planning to have a Lord Commissar with the Honoured Duellist ability).

 vipoid wrote:

 argonak wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
I'll admit to being rather less enthused, having realised that Lord Commissars can't take any of the Regiment Warlord Traits.

Well that’s a bit of a shame, but I guess it is rather fluffy. Commissars aren’t normally in charge of a regiment , they’re outside the normal command chain.

Yeah, it's just really annoying because it ruined the build I'd wanted (I'd been planning to have a Lord Commissar with the Honoured Duellist ability).

Is that CIAPHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM?

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Mordian is just kind of a middle finger to the enemy. +1 overwatch won't do anything meaningful, it will just marginally annoy your enemy, and having to bunch up B2B is a major, major drawback. Doubled overwatch output isn't going to be making a difference for the unit being charged, or the units they're protecting.

From the wording, it seemed like you just had to bunch up each guy to one other B2B, so you could still spread out, albeit half as much. It works really well for Infantry Squads though, because it basically eliminates the need for commissars on account of the leadership buff.

I think the real gem stashed away in Mordian is the order that lets you character snipe. Since we still have old Valk rules, I'm going to be dusting them off and dropping in some plasma command squad assassins.

 Galas wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
The book looks super fun. Congrats to all those who have had Guard armies sitting on shelves and holding out.

Why are we congratulating people for getting buffed and being the new broken army I don't get that.

Were people going around slapping eldar player on the back when their previous codex came out, telling them they did good? Did we throw a party for Tau when the riptide was first being introduced, to celebrate the occasion?

I didn't really want to be congratulated for that broken skitarii/admech convocation with the absurd number of free points in it. I actually wanted to ignore its existence when possible.

If you are saying that, you totally don't understand why this Codex, ignoring balance issues, is great. You only see it from a pure external balance-competitive perspective, like Marmatag sees the game. It is not a objetively wrong way to see the game, but it is not the one we are talking about here.

Let’s see how "celebrated for internal balance" when an op xenos codex is finally dropped.

 Gamgee wrote:

 Galas wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
The book looks super fun. Congrats to all those who have had Guard armies sitting on shelves and holding out.

Why are we congratulating people for getting buffed and being the new broken army I don't get that.

Were people going around slapping eldar player on the back when their previous codex came out, telling them they did good? Did we throw a party for Tau when the riptide was first being introduced, to celebrate the occasion?

I didn't really want to be congratulated for that broken skitarii/admech convocation with the absurd number of free points in it. I actually wanted to ignore its existence when possible.

If you are saying that, you totally don't understand why this Codex, ignoring balance issues, is great. You only see it from a pure external balance-competitive perspective, like Marmatag sees the game. It is not a objetively wrong way to see the game, but it is not the one we are talking about here.

Let’s see how "celebrated for internal balance" when an op xenos codex is finally dropped.

I'm a Tau player, you know it! Personally, internal balance for Tau would be a dream for me at this point!
And normally I avoud victimism of "Imperial players only complaint about Xenos being OP". You can see how much hate theres in this forum agaisn't Imperial Guard, one of the most loved armies in all of W40K history! Even orks, those funny fellas that everybody loves, should they become OP? People will start hagint them in no time.