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Well, the 2nd place finisher knew Tacs were too expensive per model. That's why they went with something cheaper like Primaris Marines.

Bharring wrote:
Well, the 2nd place finisher knew Tacs were too expensive per model. That's why they went with something cheaper like Primaris Marines.

I'm not acknowledging that as a thing until I see it happen more. I truly believe he lucked his way into that placing, because his list is pure trash. Mathematically, primaris = unplayable trash.

You seem to think that the mark of a "good" or "balanced" unit is that you can place it in it's worst case scenario charge it directly into the teeth of the enemy's guns and expect it to do well. This is not so. If you take a unit of 5 terminators and use them as intended they will do very well for their cost. That is, if you hold them in reserve, then place them where they need to be, which is NOT within 12" of a squad of plasma gunners, they can take and hold objectives or assassinate a tank or artillery piece. They can then instantly jump back to the other side of the board to grab a second objective. They are not the end-all be all of 8th edition. They are a useful tool and are worth their cost in the roll they play. And no, the mark of a balanced model is not that you can spam them, it is that they perfectly fit the role they were designed for.

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Well, the 2nd place finisher knew Tacs were too expensive per model. That's why they went with something cheaper like Primaris Marines.

I'm not acknowledging that as a thing until I see it happen more. I truly believe he lucked his way into that placing, because his list is pure trash.

"I'm ignoring the data that does not conform with my preconceived notions."

Okay then.

When the enemy plasma gunners are falling from the sky, how do you know where to place your terminators? Or exocrines, where this basically nowhere to go that they can't shoot you and have your own weapons in range.


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 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Well, the 2nd place finisher knew Tacs were too expensive per model. That's why they went with something cheaper like Primaris Marines.

I'm not acknowledging that as a thing until I see it happen more. I truly believe he lucked his way into that placing, because his list is pure trash.

"I'm ignoring the data that does not conform with my preconceived notions."

Okay then.

I'm ignoring this datum, not data.

Martel732 wrote:
When the enemy plasma gunners are falling from the sky, how do you know where to place your terminators?


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 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Well, the 2nd place finisher knew Tacs were too expensive per model. That's why they went with something cheaper like Primaris Marines.

I'm not acknowledging that as a thing until I see it happen more. I truly believe he lucked his way into that placing, because his list is pure trash.

"I'm ignoring the data that does not conform with my preconceived notions."

Okay then.

I'm ignoring this datum, not data.

Oh, sorry.

"I'm ignoring this datum because it does not conform with my preconceived notions." is certainly a much more reasonable statement. /sarcasm

If I see it happen more than once, I'll reconsider. Until then, this was pure luck to me. I'm valuing mathematical abstraction over a single datum. That's actually pretty standard practice in science.

Martel732 wrote:
If I see it happen more than once, I'll reconsider. Until then, this was pure luck to me. I'm valuing mathematical abstraction over a single datum. That's actually pretty standard practice in science.

I'm going to hold you to this, then, next time it happens. Need me to bookmark the thread or do you honestly think one more Tournament win with tactical marines will make you reconsider?

EDIT:
In reply to your edit: don't be disingenuous. You're not valuing mathematical abstraction as tactical marines are not mathematically as bad as people make them out to be. You're merely valuing your preconceived notions that they're bad higher than both the abstract mathematics and the actual evidence.

That would be in a scenario when the fool paid for a stern-guard squad in a pod or is playing scions. In the first scenario drop pods are a mess, so I'm not worried about that, in the second, place them where after the drop the scions will be useless for the rest of the game. Them bitches are slow. Use your brain, think tactically.

No, I see the tactical marine thing already. It's because lascannons short circuit screens and 2+ saves half the deaths from some of the more problematic weapon systems.

I don't see how primaris marines live 4 turns against a tournament foe, ESPECIALLY the list that won. What a turkey shoot that would be.

Martel732 wrote:
No, I see the tactical marine thing already. It's because lascannons short circuit screens and 2+ saves half the deaths from some of the more problematic weapon systems.

I don't see how primaris marines live 4 turns against a tournament foe, ESPECIALLY the list that won. What a turkey shoot that would be.

I don't understand what you are saying here - you're saying that Tactical Marines aren't so bad or?

 MattKing wrote:
That would be in a scenario when the fool paid for a stern-guard squad in a pod or is playing scions. In the first scenario drop pods are a mess, so I'm not worried about that, in the second, place them where after the drop the scions will be useless for the rest of the game. Them bitches are slow. Use your brain, think tactically.

Not necessarily useless. If you drop terminators next to an objective, they're gonna fry you and be close to that objective. This game seems to be about trading squad for squad, and marines are really bad at that given their costs.

Martel732 wrote:

 MattKing wrote:
That would be in a scenario when the fool paid for a stern-guard squad in a pod or is playing scions. In the first scenario drop pods are a mess, so I'm not worried about that, in the second, place them where after the drop the scions will be useless for the rest of the game. Them bitches are slow. Use your brain, think tactically.

Not necessarily useless. If you drop terminators next to an objective, they're gonna fry you and be close to that objective. This game seems to be about trading squad for squad, and marines are really bad at that given their costs.

I think he was saying then: don't drop the terminators near an objective.

"This game seems to be about trading squad for squad"

Ah. This is why we're having difficulty. I'm guessing you never got past the concept of "even trading" in chess.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, I see the tactical marine thing already. It's because lascannons short circuit screens and 2+ saves half the deaths from some of the more problematic weapon systems.

I don't see how primaris marines live 4 turns against a tournament foe, ESPECIALLY the list that won. What a turkey shoot that would be.

I don't understand what you are saying here - you're saying that Tactical Marines aren't so bad or?

They're trash in general and can't be used for general work, but in this particular case, they are passable because of lascannons/2+ armor/BobbyG/asscannon party. They don't need staying power because those asscannons evaporate the threat so quickly.

If BA try to replicate this, it will likely fail because of no chapter tactic/no Bobby G. And honestly, I don't know any BA players with six asscannon razors.

Martel732 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, I see the tactical marine thing already. It's because lascannons short circuit screens and 2+ saves half the deaths from some of the more problematic weapon systems.

I don't see how primaris marines live 4 turns against a tournament foe, ESPECIALLY the list that won. What a turkey shoot that would be.

I don't understand what you are saying here - you're saying that Tactical Marines aren't so bad or?

They're trash in general and can't be used for general work, but in this particular case, they are passable because of lascannons/2+ armor/BobbyG/asscannon party.

If BA try to replicate this, it will likely fail because of no chapter tactic/no Bobby G. And honestly, I don't know any BA players with six asscannon razors.

Passable? Or - dare I say it - pretty good?

 MattKing wrote:
"This game seems to be about trading squad for squad"

Ah. This is why we're having difficulty. I'm guessing you never got past the concept of "even trading" in chess.

Yeah, I did. But I haven't played chess in a long time. I know there are other considerations, but I'm having difficulty not being tabled atm. So running out of marines is a big consideration for me.


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 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, I see the tactical marine thing already. It's because lascannons short circuit screens and 2+ saves half the deaths from some of the more problematic weapon systems.

I don't see how primaris marines live 4 turns against a tournament foe, ESPECIALLY the list that won. What a turkey shoot that would be.

I don't understand what you are saying here - you're saying that Tactical Marines aren't so bad or?

They're trash in general and can't be used for general work, but in this particular case, they are passable because of lascannons/2+ armor/BobbyG/asscannon party.

If BA try to replicate this, it will likely fail because of no chapter tactic/no Bobby G. And honestly, I don't know any BA players with six asscannon razors.

Passable? Or - dare I say it - pretty good?

No, they're not good. Only passable, because guardsmen with lascannons would be better for the same cost.

Martel732 wrote:

 MattKing wrote:
"This game seems to be about trading squad for squad"

Ah. This is why we're having difficulty. I'm guessing you never got past the concept of "even trading" in chess.

Yeah, I did. But I haven't played chess in a long time. I know there are other considerations, but I'm having difficulty not being tabled atm. So running out of marines is a big consideration for me.

What is your list and what are you facing? I'm just curious.

EDIT: You can PM me if you want.

Unit, in light of all of this, I will ask for yet another game if and when we meet.

I will use primaris marines. Prepare your butt for a whoppin >:3

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I still think that, in practice, terminators are garbage tier. Overcharge plasma had a lot to do with that.

Terminators fall pretty easily to even -1 ap weapons.

Honest question: For years, imperial players cried out for 2W terminators, over and over and over again. Then GW gave you exactly that, and you didn't have to pay one more point for it. Then they doubled the ranged firepower of storm bolters. Then they let you charge out of deep strike.

What in the world would make them not 'garbage tier' at this point? Hell, meganobz are one of the better units in the ork army, and they went up ~50% in cost and only got one more wound.

I have had 2 wound terminators for years, they still sucked. Now they're 3 wounds and still suck because they don't have ENOUGH quality for their price tag.

Martel732 wrote:
No, I see the tactical marine thing already. It's because lascannons short circuit screens and 2+ saves half the deaths from some of the more problematic weapon systems.

I don't see how primaris marines live 4 turns against a tournament foe, ESPECIALLY the list that won. What a turkey shoot that would be.

Primaris marines are like 60% more survivable per point against assault cannons.


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 Quickjager wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I still think that, in practice, terminators are garbage tier. Overcharge plasma had a lot to do with that.

Terminators fall pretty easily to even -1 ap weapons.

Honest question: For years, imperial players cried out for 2W terminators, over and over and over again. Then GW gave you exactly that, and you didn't have to pay one more point for it. Then they doubled the ranged firepower of storm bolters. Then they let you charge out of deep strike.

What in the world would make them not 'garbage tier' at this point? Hell, meganobz are one of the better units in the ork army, and they went up ~50% in cost and only got one more wound.

I have had 2 wound terminators for years, they still sucked. Now they're 3 wounds and still suck because they don't have ENOUGH quality for their price tag.

same offense as a strike marine for almost 3 times the cost....and don't have 3x the durability ether...

I have many lists, because I haven't found one that works at all. Turns out my mistake all along was bringing units that punch things. Silly me.

I'm now just going to try to approximate the UM list, because that's my only real option.

I play vs a lot of Mechdar, Nidzilla, Nid hordes, Ad mech, and of course, IG now.

"Primaris marines are like 60% more survivable per point against assault cannons."

So? They get 5 shots per 100 pts. At that rate, you'll win by turn 256.

GK termies are WAY overcosted. No argument here. They NEED storm shields

I don't know what to say. You can deepstrike units as late as third turn. And yeah "But all my games end by second turn!" My experience differs. With enough terrain that isn't the case and even less with all the -1 to hit in 12" tactics that are out today in the meta.

I NEVER deepstrike my Terminators in turn 1 or even 2 if I don't have a perfect objetive. Is just STUPID to deepstrike your terminators and charge the perfectly deployed chaff of your enemy on turn 1. One need to wait for a good opener in their defense, made by them moving to claim objetives or concentrating your fire on a flank or part of the enemy army.

Martel732 wrote:
I have many lists, because I haven't found one that works at all. Turns out my mistake all along was bringing units that punch things. Silly me.

I'm now just going to try to approximate the UM list, because that's my only real option.

I play vs a lot of Mechdar, Nidzilla, Nid hordes, Ad mech, and of course, IG now.

"Primaris marines are like 60% more survivable per point against assault cannons."

So? They get 5 shots per 100 pts. At that rate, you'll win by turn 256.

I was going to do some maths; but to do that I need more specificity sadly, on both lists. Essentially I was going to do your job for you and see if it's possible for you to bring a list that doesn't get tabled.

 Galas wrote:
I don't know what to say. You can deepstrike units as late as third turn. And yeah "But all my games end by second turn!" My experience differs. With enough terrain that isn't the case and even less with all the -1 to hit in 12" tactics that are out today in the meta.

I NEVER deepstrike my Terminators in turn 1 or even 2 if I don't have a perfect objetive. Is just STUPID to deepstrike your terminators and charge the perfectly deployed chaff of your enemy on turn 1. One need to way for a good opener in their defense, made by their moving to claim objetives or concentrating your fire on a flank or part of the enemy army.

Because I have time to hold my units back while the conscripts swarm the objectives and the Manticores and basiliks pound me for the first two turns? So my glorious terminators can make their entrance and smoke 20 pts of IG models? If you hold them back as you describe, the enemy is STILL getting what they want. They're gonna make you hit a screen until you commit all your DS stuff, and then they'll leave openings. They have the model coverage to do this, marines don't.


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The fething Nids have way too many cheap mortal wounds. That also spells doom for terminators. And the harpy gun doing 2 damage is excessive, imo.

 Galas wrote:
I don't know what to say. You can deepstrike units as late as third turn. And yeah "But all my games end by second turn!" My experience differs. With enough terrain that isn't the case and even less with all the -1 to hit in 12" tactics that are out today in the meta.

I NEVER deepstrike my Terminators in turn 1 or even 2 if I don't have a perfect objetive. Is just STUPID to deepstrike your terminators and charge the perfectly deployed chaff of your enemy on turn 1. One need to wait for a good opener in their defense, made by them moving to claim objetives or concentrating your fire on a flank or part of the enemy army.

Sometimes I wonder if a lot of the problems on this forum can be solved if people were introduced to tactics more complex than "point and attack". Seriously almost all discussions of whether "x unit is worse than y unit" makes you think two units are just marching up a flat table with nothing else around.

This isn't going anywhere and seems to be devolving fast.

As an attempt to get back on track, Purestrain genestealers I also feel are balanced. They fill their role well, and can be wiped by a good round of shooting. with cult ambush they're a solid assassination unit.

The GSC version is pretty good, but the Nid version is just downright dirty. For a while I was actually afraid of people calling me a cheesemonger just because I had 40 of the things on day 1 of the index.

Agreed on genestealers. Maybe a little too cheap given the rest of the codex, but really close.

If Nids weren't the mortal wound block party, they wouldn't be as suspect.


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 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I have many lists, because I haven't found one that works at all. Turns out my mistake all along was bringing units that punch things. Silly me.

I'm now just going to try to approximate the UM list, because that's my only real option.

I play vs a lot of Mechdar, Nidzilla, Nid hordes, Ad mech, and of course, IG now.

"Primaris marines are like 60% more survivable per point against assault cannons."

So? They get 5 shots per 100 pts. At that rate, you'll win by turn 256.

I was going to do some maths; but to do that I need more specificity sadly, on both lists. Essentially I was going to do your job for you and see if it's possible for you to bring a list that doesn't get tabled.

I'm just gonna spam lascannons like the UM guy and cower in cover. Because that's the paradigm now.

"all the -1 to hit in 12" tactics that are out today in the meta. "

BA seem to be fresh out of those. As are SW and DA.