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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





If the opponent has all of his PGs on one objective, go to another one. Typically, there are 6.

If your opponent splits his forces up evenly, roll up on one at a time.

Last time I faced Termies, sure, they weren't a problem. But that's because he deepstruck them where I wanted him to (behind the centerfield LOS-blocking piece), so I could unload my entire army (sans 2 units) into the one squad. Then charge with my entire army (sans 4 units). All into 1 squad. If termies could handle that, they'd be OP, not balanced. (Also, Asurmen did 15 wounds, lolwtf). He let me divide his forces into 3 equal parts, and bring the entirety of mine down on each third, one after another.

Time before that, Termies were used to push one flank, backed by other SM tools. They soaked too much fire, and could destroy anything they were allowed to CC with.
This forced me to back away from his push.
Backing away meant my units couldn't effectively engage the Termies support.
Sure, the termies did die eventually, but less than half of his army took out more than half of mine. And we're talking Rhinos, Tacs, and Termies.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/20 16:17:38


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Falls Church, VA

I'm not sure splitting the Marines into their constituent factions was great from a 'dex perspective. Wolves, DA, and BA could all do with just being in the updated Dex and getting Chapter Tactics.

That way, I think they'd be less bad.

Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

2nd Concordian Independent Super Heavy Tank Armoured Regiment - 12,376 points
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Nevian Conclave of the Ordo Hereticus - 2002 points 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






Shame on you, wolves are awesome. They just don't have a guilliflower.

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Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 MattKing wrote:
Shame on you, wolves are awesome. They just don't have a guilliflower.


Wolves are crap. I even beat them with my terrible faction.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






Wolves can give their 15pt sternguard storm shields and jump packs.

Bouncy killy dakka.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/20 16:23:08


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Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Bharring wrote:
If the opponent has all of his PGs on one objective, go to another one. Typically, there are 6.

If your opponent splits his forces up evenly, roll up on one at a time.

Last time I faced Termies, sure, they weren't a problem. But that's because he deepstruck them where I wanted him to (behind the centerfield LOS-blocking piece), so I could unload my entire army (sans 2 units) into the one squad. Then charge with my entire army (sans 4 units). All into 1 squad. If termies could handle that, they'd be OP, not balanced. (Also, Asurmen did 15 wounds, lolwtf). He let me divide his forces into 3 equal parts, and bring the entirety of mine down on each third, one after another.

Time before that, Termies were used to push one flank, backed by other SM tools. They soaked too much fire, and could destroy anything they were allowed to CC with.
This forced me to back away from his push.
Backing away meant my units couldn't effectively engage the Termies support.
Sure, the termies did die eventually, but less than half of his army took out more than half of mine. And we're talking Rhinos, Tacs, and Termies.


Was this marines vs marines? No, I see Eldar. Eldar don't have good screening units, either, so terminators might kinda work there. Although mechdar doesn't care at all about them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 MattKing wrote:
Wolves can give their 15pt sternguard storm shields and jump packs.

Bouncy killy dakka.


Okay, haven't seen that yet. Seems like that needs to be nerfed, though.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/20 16:24:07


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





If you think Mechdar don't care about Termies, that's a whole different story.

Short version: You can either bubblewrap or jet around in vehicles. You don't have points for both. Termies, as part of a larger army, can crimp either style.
   
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Not at all. Even if you get the assault off, powerfists are greatly neutered by the shielding.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/20 16:29:40


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Further, that first story it really didn't matter that I was playing CWE. Any combined arms faction would behave similarly. It was demonstrating that if you just drop Termies in their face, without supporting them, not only do they fail, but they should fail.

(Although shooting a single 5-man with my entire army and not killing it should say something, too. Needed CC to finish it off.)
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

Yeah 2W terminators, okay great, but now there are a lot of weapons that kill them outright. And due to their price tag, it's not ineffective to use heavy weaponry on them. Your heavy plasma, lascannons, or equivalents aren't wasted on terminators, because you're removing a huge chunk of the list. I had a unit of Paladins removed by a manticore. Justify that for me please. (this was early in 8th before i realized terminator armor = terrible death sentence.)

Most assault units in the marine codex/index are actually really good if they make it to what they want to fight. The problem is, in practice, they never do. I know i'm not going to convince people of this, because i'm arguing with people who fundamentally don't play 8th edition competitively, and haven't seen every table covered in screening units. Every solid meta army can screen incredibly well. The only one that can't really are Ynaari but they're so fast, and with Tasty Soul Crackers they chew through units like it's going out of style, making them super effective.

But every other meta army will screen you or handle you.

Tau will screen you with drones, and greater good your balls off, before flying away on the subsequent turn. You can't really assault them.

Anything Imperium will be choked with conscripts. We've covered this one.

Chaos has Brimstones, and a ton of smites. Your 2+/3++ TH/SS termies will eat mortal wounds just like everything else. Khorne Berzerkers that charge terminators will win that fight and they're much, much cheaper.

Harlequins will handle you in melee, because they're always dictating the engagement, so while they don't have screening units, they're so much faster, and protected by amazing transports, that they don't much mind an assault army.

Genestealer Cults will roflstomp you hardcore in melee, but they're *the* melee army in this edition so i'm not salty about that. They're good but they have weaknesses. They handle terminators super good like they always have. You could argue that terminators should be competitive against genestealers, but they simply aren't. What i'm saying is, while Terminators are total ass against GSC, that's okay because while that plunges the fluff it fits into the relative balance of marines vs gsc.

So yeah, terminators got a second wound.

But they are totally ineffective.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/20 16:31:20


 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
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Remember when this thread was on track?
Peperidge farm rembemers.

I openly said you wouldn't use termies in comp. Comp is flooded with so much gack that if it doesn't have at least a 11/7 points proficiency you don't play it. I know this. HOWEVER in terms of BALANCE termies can make back their points when played well. They are a part of a BALANCED breakfast.

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Fixture of Dakka





If every army you care about is only those you might see at the top table, you're limiting 'every army' to 3-ish out of over a dozen. I'd argue that what you need there isn't 'Balanced', it's 'OP'.

If a pure-CC SM list could beat anything in most other codicies, it'd be OP. I'm not saying Termies and Tacs can. I'm saying Termies and Tacs are reasonable tradeoffs compared to the average choices across all armies in the game.

   
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I honestly don't even know what that looks like, so sure.
   
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The Last Chancer Who Survived




On moon miranda.

 Marmatag wrote:
I had a unit of Paladins removed by a manticore. Justify that for me please. (this was early in 8th before i realized terminator armor = terrible death sentence.)
In one turn or over the course of a game? Over the course of a game, ok, not too bad. In one turn? A Manticore will average 1.46 unsaved wounds on Paladins, for 2.92 average wounds inflicted. If a Manticore wiped out a Paladin unit in one turn, thats some highly abnormal luck.

Though yes, multidamage weapons and mortal wounds do tend to reduce Terminator/Paladin viability.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

Heavy Gear Painting Log, Northern Guard, Southern Republican Army, and Terrain
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

Bharring wrote:
If every army you care about is only those you might see at the top table, you're limiting 'every army' to 3-ish out of over a dozen. I'd argue that what you need there isn't 'Balanced', it's 'OP'.


Reread what you just said, are you literally arguing that you shouldn't prepare knowing what you will face?

This is 8th edition. If you build a list it NEEDS to be able to handle:

Astra Militarum / Guard
Chaos

Before you even consider anything else. These are the top two factions - in that order - and you will face them guaranteed no matter the event, unless you find yourself in the gakker.

I stand by my previous statement that Ork Boyz are balanced, and other cheap chaff are severely undercosted. Conscripts should be equal in cost to Boyz and Guardsmen should be more expensive. Orks are the canonical cheap bodies unit and they should do it better than ANYONE else. Including GSC, which they DO NOT.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/20 16:53:32


 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




They're talking about balance vs ALL units, not just what you'll actually see. I still think terminators are a hard fail from model count, but if you throw in all the terrible options from every codex, they look better.
   
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On moon miranda.

 Marmatag wrote:
Bharring wrote:
If every army you care about is only those you might see at the top table, you're limiting 'every army' to 3-ish out of over a dozen. I'd argue that what you need there isn't 'Balanced', it's 'OP'.


Reread what you just said, are you literally arguing that you shouldn't prepare knowing what you will face?

This is 8th edition. If you build a list it NEEDS to be able to handle:

Astra Militarum / Guard
Chaos

Before you even consider anything else. These are the top two factions - in that order - and you will face them guaranteed no matter the event, unless you find yourself in the gakker.

I stand by my previous statement that Ork Boyz are balanced, and other cheap chaff are severely undercosted. Conscripts should be equal in cost to Boyz and Guardsmen should be more expensive. Orks are the canonical cheap bodies unit and they should do it better than ANYONE else. Including GSC, which they DO NOT.
again..why should Conscripts, which are markedly inferior to Ork Boyz in almost every way, cost as much as Ork Boyz?

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

Heavy Gear Painting Log, Northern Guard, Southern Republican Army, and Terrain
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

Martel732 wrote:
They're talking about balance vs ALL units, not just what you'll actually see. I still think terminators are a hard fail from model count, but if you throw in all the terrible options from every codex, they look better.


LOL that's hilarious.

Any strategy game boils down to what units fit the meta and what units are effective. 40k's meta is incredibly static because balance adjustments are (a) rare and (b) not going to matter until they address imperial guard and smite spam, because those things are head and shoulders above the competition as has been proven by ITC data, and anecdotally if you ever play a tournament anywhere ever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Vaktathi wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
Bharring wrote:
If every army you care about is only those you might see at the top table, you're limiting 'every army' to 3-ish out of over a dozen. I'd argue that what you need there isn't 'Balanced', it's 'OP'.


Reread what you just said, are you literally arguing that you shouldn't prepare knowing what you will face?

This is 8th edition. If you build a list it NEEDS to be able to handle:

Astra Militarum / Guard
Chaos

Before you even consider anything else. These are the top two factions - in that order - and you will face them guaranteed no matter the event, unless you find yourself in the gakker.

I stand by my previous statement that Ork Boyz are balanced, and other cheap chaff are severely undercosted. Conscripts should be equal in cost to Boyz and Guardsmen should be more expensive. Orks are the canonical cheap bodies unit and they should do it better than ANYONE else. Including GSC, which they DO NOT.
again..why should Conscripts, which are markedly inferior to Ork Boyz in almost every way, cost as much as Ork Boyz?

Conscripts are far superior to Ork Boyz because they create an impassable shield making your "far better than anything in the Ork codex shooting units" amazingly invincible to assault, and close range shooting. Context matters, can we agree on this?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/20 17:03:17


 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





To clarify, not what you'll see at a premeir GT. Different people play in different metas. Most of those aren't at GT levels.

I'd wager that, in the average meta, Tac Marines are more common than Conscripts (on a per-game basis, not per-model).

This thread is specifically not about prepping for GTs.

(I do think I agree that Ork Boyz are balanced, in average lists.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Marmatag,
That's only true for players aiming to be the very best and win the maximum possible games. At any cost.

I'm not going to switch to a faction just because CWE isn't top dog (for another week at least ).

I've been enjoying the game trying two win while still using DAs as troops since the index. Clearly not the most advantageous advantage, even within my CWE collection. But I've enjoyed it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/20 17:05:35


 
   
Made in es
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets




Vigo. Spain.

I can see the point of units in different armies having different costs even if one is better than the other. I wouldn't expect a Tau meele unit to be as point-efficient as a Khorne Berzerker or a Ork meele unit.

The sad part of this is that with the mixing we have in 8th, is very difficult to balance that.


 Marmatag wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
They're talking about balance vs ALL units, not just what you'll actually see. I still think terminators are a hard fail from model count, but if you throw in all the terrible options from every codex, they look better.


LOL that's hilarious.

Any strategy game boils down to what units fit the meta and what units are effective. 40k's meta is incredibly static because balance adjustments are (a) rare and (b) not going to matter until they address imperial guard and smite spam, because those things are head and shoulders above the competition as has been proven by ITC data, and anecdotally if you ever play a tournament anywhere ever.


Not really. Theres a reason why GOOD game developers try to balance BOTH to the high-end competitive crown and the casual-quickmatch group of people that are in fact the mayority of the player base.
The balanced units are the ones in the middle, they should try to approach the extremes as near as possible to the middle, not make everything competitive with the idea that they should be as efficient as Conscripts or they are useless.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/10/20 17:15:15


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived




On moon miranda.

 Marmatag wrote:

Conscripts are far superior to Ork Boyz because they create an impassable shield making your "far better than anything in the Ork codex shooting units" amazingly invincible to assault, and close range shooting. Context matters, can we agree on this?
Right, context matters. The issues with conscripts arent with conscripts, it's with the support options available to Conscripts (without which Conscripts are easily brushed aside), and even then, the sum total value of conscripts on the table is essentially as a wall, nothing more.

You make Conscripts 6ppm, and youll never see them on the table again, you might as well remove them from the codex, the effect would be identical. More to the point, if Conscripts are 6ppm, Guardsmen must be at least 7ppm, and then we're at the same issues Guardians have, and nobody wants Guardians.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

Heavy Gear Painting Log, Northern Guard, Southern Republican Army, and Terrain
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

Bharring wrote:
I'd wager that, in the average meta, Tac Marines are more common than Conscripts (on a per-game basis, not per-model).


I don't know, maybe there's a clownshoes meta out there where people are unable to do basic math, or too poor to afford new miniatures with the edition change, so you don't see powerful stuff on the table.

I live about 30 minutes from the BAO, and other major events. It's hyper competitive out here. I have played against some of the top lists/players at the BAO.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Vaktathi wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:

Conscripts are far superior to Ork Boyz because they create an impassable shield making your "far better than anything in the Ork codex shooting units" amazingly invincible to assault, and close range shooting. Context matters, can we agree on this?
Right, context matters. The issues with conscripts arent with conscripts, it's with the support options available to Conscripts (without which Conscripts are easily brushed aside), and even then, the sum total value of conscripts on the table is essentially as a wall, nothing more.

You make Conscripts 6ppm, and youll never see them on the table again, you might as well remove them from the codex, the effect would be identical. More to the point, if Conscripts are 6ppm, Guardsmen must be at least 7ppm, and then we're at the same issues Guardians have, and nobody wants Guardians.


I'm not going to debate conscripts with you. It's been done to death. Enjoy being 8th ed Eldar.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/20 17:30:52


 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






"I don't know, maybe there's a clownshoes meta out there where people are unable to do basic math, or too poor to afford new miniatures with the edition change"

I rarely see this level of elitism in a community that solely gathers to play with plastic army men. You must be a treat to play with.

Balance of any unit must take into account the entire range. Balance is entirely subject to the game's overall design. If the rules staff knew this we wouldn't have army teirs, but each one would have a different, but effective toolkit. The "Meta" is a symptom of the game's imbalance NOT the standard by which everything should be measured.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/20 17:43:13


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Vigo. Spain.

I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy.
How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

I mean what are you supposed to say when someone says, "i'll wager you'll see more TAC marines than conscripts?" That's like saying, "in 7th edition you're more not going to see scatter lasers."

I understand at the core what you're saying - balance should be viewed holistically. But the problem we have now is that it wasn't when certain units were created. So we have a moving goalpost around what the acceptable standard of quality is. At the end of the day we can go by tournament results, because that's the most formal way to look at aggregate warhammer data. So while it doesn't fit the casual meta, that's not a super big deal anyway, since the game is largely balanced if you're taking the beer and pretzels approach.

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived




On moon miranda.

 Marmatag wrote:


I'm not going to debate conscripts with you. It's been done to death. Enjoy being 8th ed Eldar.
Mk, well an evasion and a thinly veiled emotional swipe. I'm going to take that as you dont really have an argument to make, you're just angry.

For the record, I have never run conscripts in any edition and probably wont this edition, they just arent a unit I like thematically. Same way I never picked up any Jetbiked or Wraithknights for my Eldar during 7th, theyre not my thing. But if youre going to make an assertion on a discussion board that a unit should be doubled in cost to match a far superior unit, dont be surprised when people question that assertion.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

Heavy Gear Painting Log, Northern Guard, Southern Republican Army, and Terrain
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy.
How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you


:(

I'm moving back to narrative and casual play. Aeticus wrote a brilliant ruleset for casual play. That's probably the only way i'll play 40k moving forward.

I'm nice in person, I promise...

I mean 40k tournaments bring out the worst in people. I have seen people fudge dice rolls, subtly cheat about their buffs and traits, use different profiles for the same unit during the game without skipping a beat... It is just a toxic community, do whatever it takes to win crowd. To make 40k a competitive game that's *fun* you really need a damn judge for every table. The WAAC crowd really does suck.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/20 17:56:16


 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in es
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets




Vigo. Spain.

To be honest, "casual and narrative play" is the only type of play where Warhammer40k offers a fun and enjoyable experience, at least for me. And yes, everything Auticus wrote is gold.

For competitive experiences I play other type of games. Like Videogames or fencing.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/20 18:01:18


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






It's just so much more fun to write fluffy lists and play narrative games. The open war deck is especially brilliant. There is something to be said for comp and as long as you're willing to pregame a couple hundred pages in excel to determine viability of different point choices it's something that can be won... but I don't like how cynical it turns otherwise friendly players.

Like Minis and sculpts? Check out our Patreon! https://www.patreon.com/themakerscult 
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

 Galas wrote:
To be honest, "casual and narrative play" is the only type of play where Warhammer40k offers a fun and enjoyable experience, at least for me.

For competitive experiences I play other type of games. Like Videogames or fencing.


Yep. The second your ITC ranking is involved people turn into monsters. It just gets so tiresome stopping people every 5 seconds, "no you moved him 7," or "no, you nova charged that profile, not this one," or "no, you rolled a 2, not a 6," or "no, that BS is 4+, not 3+" or "no, your save is not x+," or "yes, I did cast that power successfully last round,"... the list goes on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 MattKing wrote:
It's just so much more fun to write fluffy lists and play narrative games. The open war deck is especially brilliant. There is something to be said for comp and as long as you're willing to pregame a couple hundred pages in excel to determine viability of different point choices it's something that can be won... but I don't like how cynical it turns otherwise friendly players.


I highlighted the open war comment. Enough cannot be said for how good the Open War cards are as a product.

Random battle zone + open war's twist, deployment, and victory condition = really interesting fights.

Played a game where it was acid rain nightfight, kill the courier, with the wonkiest deployment zones ever. Was actually super fun.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/20 18:00:52


 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
 
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