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My problem with UM is that they push all the other chapters into the margins. Here I am playing Iron Hands, and WE don't even have a tank commander, but Ultramarines have a character for literally every type of HQ choice, and a few extra special characters that there aren't any equivalents for.
There are MORE Ultramarine named characters than there are non-Ultramarine named characters in the Space Marines book. Not only that, but almost every other named character is just a Captain or Chapter Master variant, (Grimaldus being the exception,) while Ultramarines get all kinds of cool toys for every possible occasion.

It makes Ultramarines the default most-powerful chapter simply by existing and having more options, in the same way that 'Imperium' is the strongest army simply because it can pull from so many different sources.

I'd still say their fans are more tolerable than Dorn-fanboys..

I don't really hate them, I find them boring and it is tiresome that GW is so obsessed about them. GW catering to the Ultras will create resentment in the players of other chapters.

Waaaghpower wrote:
My problem with UM is that they push all the other chapters into the margins. Here I am playing Iron Hands, and WE don't even have a tank commander, but Ultramarines have a character for literally every type of HQ choice, and a few extra special characters that there aren't any equivalents for.
There are MORE Ultramarine named characters than there are non-Ultramarine named characters in the Space Marines book. Not only that, but almost every other named character is just a Captain or Chapter Master variant, (Grimaldus being the exception,) while Ultramarines get all kinds of cool toys for every possible occasion.

It makes Ultramarines the default most-powerful chapter simply by existing and having more options, in the same way that 'Imperium' is the strongest army simply because it can pull from so many different sources.

Yep, this. They've got stuff that is not even related to their theme. So Ultramarines have the best librarian in the game, yet they're not particularly renowned for their psychic prowess, they've got a tank commander, none of the other chapters do, not even Iron Hands, same with the scout character, that should have gone to the Raven Guard.

And of course now they have the Primach... I guess there is no need to repeat here how much I hate the idea of a loayalist Primarch returning, let alone the fact that now half of the Space marine armies in existence are led by this same unique person... (With other characters you can at least refluff them even if you used the rules, It is really not reasonably possible with a Primarch.)

Well I mean playing dark angels I don't feel that backlash, as we have our own things and fancy toys, but don't the iron hands not have a single named character?

Ultramarines are always pushed into the foreground, despite appearing to lack any of the character and personality the other chapters have.

I'm a big fan of the Greco-Roman theme, so much so, that I've collected a small force of Calth MKIV SMs for a Minotaurs project, as well as other MKIV characters.

Yep, this. They've got stuff that is not even related to their theme. So Ultramarines have the best librarian in the game, yet they're not particularly renowned for their psychic prowess, they've got a tank commander, none of the other chapters do, not even Iron Hands, same with the scout character, that should have gone to the Raven Guard.

Because there was no generic space Marine codex to start with in 2nd edition, there was the Ultramarines Codex (With the ability to use other chapters through Angels of Death index).. Which was converted over to the generic Space Marine codex.

This is why the Ultramarines have an entire cast of characters, most of them ended up coming from the previous set while they lost things overtime (and gained back) like the Tyrannic War Veterans (which was converted to Sternguard).

Now GW is to blame for not adding new characters to the other's overtime.. But they started with all this fancy stuff, like how BA, DA, SW, have their own respective takes on this stuff.

Waaaghpower wrote:
My problem with UM is that they push all the other chapters into the margins. Here I am playing Iron Hands, and WE don't even have a tank commander, but Ultramarines have a character for literally every type of HQ choice, and a few extra special characters that there aren't any equivalents for.
There are MORE Ultramarine named characters than there are non-Ultramarine named characters in the Space Marines book. Not only that, but almost every other named character is just a Captain or Chapter Master variant, (Grimaldus being the exception,) while Ultramarines get all kinds of cool toys for every possible occasion.

It makes Ultramarines the default most-powerful chapter simply by existing and having more options, in the same way that 'Imperium' is the strongest army simply because it can pull from so many different sources.

Yet...they have the weakest chapter tactic.

Also lets not forget the: New Toy for Space Marines! I mean Ultras! Sucks to be not Ultras .

So any other chapter needs to pray to GW to allow them to use the new Space Marine Toy Thingy that by Fluff, everyone but realy only the guys in blue get (Until their codex gets an update). Funnily enough being part of the main Dex solves that problem for some chapters.

Yep. I dislike their apparent goody goody two shoes, but I'm also the guy that roots for villains in movies. I find them boring and without flavor. I see salamanders and see that they have a kind of cool thing going, and the same with Space Wolves (I kind of wish they stuck to the Norse more so than the wolfiness but I love me some Norse mythology) and the secrets other chapters have. I really love the Space crusaders of the Black Templars, I mean every other chapter has something that draws me in. I look at every other marine chapter and see untapped potential. I look at the Ultramarines and see a cash cow milked to it's dying throes. Part of it is jealousy, which is the heart of contempt and hatred many a time. I don't mind seeing them on the table though. I never feel guilty about shooting a particularly well painted ultrasmurf off the table


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the space wolves being wolfy wolf with wolves, I guess that's the price they pay for being in a game that is trying to widen it's horizons to children. Cartooney werewolf crap is a bit more child magnetic than just awesome space Vikings.

Waaaghpower wrote:
My problem with UM is that they push all the other chapters into the margins. Here I am playing Iron Hands, and WE don't even have a tank commander, but Ultramarines have a character for literally every type of HQ choice, and a few extra special characters that there aren't any equivalents for.
There are MORE Ultramarine named characters than there are non-Ultramarine named characters in the Space Marines book. Not only that, but almost every other named character is just a Captain or Chapter Master variant, (Grimaldus being the exception,) while Ultramarines get all kinds of cool toys for every possible occasion.

It makes Ultramarines the default most-powerful chapter simply by existing and having more options, in the same way that 'Imperium' is the strongest army simply because it can pull from so many different sources.

100 times this, if it wasn't for the sheer over abundance of UM named characters and detailed UM specific sculpts (Tyrannic War Vets, Honour Guard) versus every other Chapter, I don't think I would dislike them as much as I do. I don't need a named character for every role, but I would love to at least have a generic option for things like a Scout HQ or Tank Commander.

That they are on the cover of almost every Marine kit box doesn't bother me, I have to admit that it looks quite nice on the shelves when all the Marine boxes are next to each other and makes buying kits as a present/gift for somebody mhch easier for those not initiated to the 40k game and universe. I just don't like that it seems that the UM have so many more options on who is leading their force to battle over everybody else, and get options like the Chapter specific Primaris upgrade packs, and get preferential treatment when it comes to resculpts of their characters.

I don't begrudge the people that play them though, just the people who use Guilliman in EVERY Imperial list they make.

You should play warhammer space marine. I think you can get it for really cheap on steam. It's probably the best war-hammer game ever. It is IMO. Anyways - it might change your view of the ultra marines if you hate them. Captain Titus is the embodiment of what a space marine is.

Waaaghpower wrote:My problem with UM is that they push all the other chapters into the margins. Here I am playing Iron Hands, and WE don't even have a tank commander, but Ultramarines have a character for literally every type of HQ choice, and a few extra special characters that there aren't any equivalents for.
There are MORE Ultramarine named characters than there are non-Ultramarine named characters in the Space Marines book. Not only that, but almost every other named character is just a Captain or Chapter Master variant, (Grimaldus being the exception,) while Ultramarines get all kinds of cool toys for every possible occasion.

It makes Ultramarines the default most-powerful chapter simply by existing and having more options, in the same way that 'Imperium' is the strongest army simply because it can pull from so many different sources.

To be fair, when the Ultramarines first had their explosion of special characters, anyone could use them in any Chapter. Like, you could take a Telion-count-as in a Raven Guard list, purely because Chapter Tactics didn't exist at the time. Sure, they were "canonically" Ultramarine, but you could always take "Carneus Malgar" as the double-powerfist wielding Chapter Master of your Imperial Fists.

It was only in 6th that Chapter actually became an issue, the edition AFTER all these Characters were added.

Again, you might say that "Ultramarines have more things, that makes them better!" - not truly. If only one of those characters it actually worth taking, the others are useless save for variety. After all, Iron Hands had no special characters in 6th and 7th, but were one of the most taken Chapters. Why? They had good rules without needing Characters as a crutch.

If any Chapter could take Guilliman, would there be incentive to take Ultramarines?

(However, yes, I do agree that characters like Telion and Chronus probably should have been made into generic characters, like "Scout Commander" or "Tank Commander". However, Tigurius was around from 3rd Ed I think, with Cassius replacing Chaplain Xavier, and Sicarius presumably filling in for Cortez.
It wasn't just UM who got new characters in 5th - Khan, Shrike and Vulkan being added.)

Crimson wrote:I don't really hate them, I find them boring and it is tiresome that GW is so obsessed about them. GW catering to the Ultras will create resentment in the players of other chapters.

Waaaghpower wrote:
My problem with UM is that they push all the other chapters into the margins. Here I am playing Iron Hands, and WE don't even have a tank commander, but Ultramarines have a character for literally every type of HQ choice, and a few extra special characters that there aren't any equivalents for.
There are MORE Ultramarine named characters than there are non-Ultramarine named characters in the Space Marines book. Not only that, but almost every other named character is just a Captain or Chapter Master variant, (Grimaldus being the exception,) while Ultramarines get all kinds of cool toys for every possible occasion.

It makes Ultramarines the default most-powerful chapter simply by existing and having more options, in the same way that 'Imperium' is the strongest army simply because it can pull from so many different sources.

Yep, this. They've got stuff that is not even related to their theme. So Ultramarines have the best librarian in the game, yet they're not particularly renowned for their psychic prowess, they've got a tank commander, none of the other chapters do, not even Iron Hands, same with the scout character, that should have gone to the Raven Guard.

Again, when those Characters were added, anyone could have taken them in any Chapter.

And of course now they have the Primach... I guess there is no need to repeat here how much I hate the idea of a loayalist Primarch returning, let alone the fact that now half of the Space marine armies in existence are led by this same unique person... (With other characters you can at least refluff them even if you used the rules, It is really not reasonably possible with a Primarch.)

Guilliman was prepared to return for quite some time before he did. In fact, he, alongside Lion, was the most likely to come back. This was before 5th (I think), so before Ward, and all the same - what if it was a different Primarch? How would that make it better? Why do Traitors get to have their Primarchs come back, and Loyalists don't?

What if it happened to be another Chapter who was chosen as the poster boys by GW? Say, Imperial Fists? Would they be hated in this situation, or is this really just becuase they're Ultramarines?
GW decided that they'd have their Big Four - DA, BA, SW, and UM. They gave all the others unique rules, and chose the Ultramarines to be the straight ones, the baseline to compare others to. Someone had to be.

If I had to pick a specific chapter I dislike (as opposed to just the bizarre way Space Marines are executed in the fluff by GW) then it would be Wolves, rather than UM.

UM strike me almost like the late Roman Empire: idealizing certain past concepts (the glories of pre-200AD Rome!, or in the Ultramarines' minds, their domination of the Imperium after the Heresy as the largest and most powerful surviving legion) and trying to execute them, but falling short at the last hurdle - namely, realizing that its their own hubris that prevents them from re-acquiring their potential. Take the Codex for example: hailed as a guideline for how space marines fight, so the Ultramarines, naturally, make it into an infallible bible that cannot be deviated from, and forget that it was only ever guidelines in the first place!

NOTE: I realize it's more nuanced than this, and that part of the tension within the Chapter is over this exact issue.

Wolves, on the other hand, strike me as the embodiment of

1) Do a thing
2) ?????
3) Profit!

which is a concept that I hate. I feel like they bumble their way to victory time and again. Like attacking the Inquisition and Ecclesiarchy when they showed up to make sure Fenris wasn't literally evil and the story essentially goes:

1) SW shoot at loyal Imperial servants
2) ??????
3) SW win while somehow staying loyalist!

 Xenomancers wrote:
You should play warhammer space marine. I think you can get it for really cheap on steam. It's probably the best war-hammer game ever. It is IMO. Anyways - it might change your view of the ultra marines if you hate them. Captain Titus is the embodiment of what a space marine is.

This. It actually shows examples of Good Ultramarines, and Bad Ultramarines - Titus as the good, being humanitarian (a UM trait), and not being obsessive over the codex but still tactically minded, and Leandros as the more callous, calculating Codex lover.

Yea, GW mancrush on UM is the issue here.
SM as a whole is just fine and not realy that hated.

If i could run the dev division for GW i would place UM in the ignore bin for 5 years while i force the art and modelers to flush out the other main chapters in the codex to the same extent as UM is.

I hate Ultra's because of what they are. Overperfect glorious marty-stu's who do everything and have everything (literally) and have no real flaws beyond "being a bit pridefu;". That is not a flaw, not when your strength is quite literally "everything but +1".
On the first page someone compared them to that kid in the playground who's pretend character has all the powers but better than everyone else and is unbeatable and in all honesty that is the best description I have heard in a long time.
Tank commanders? Guard have Pask who gives us rerolls to hit and a slight buff to the main gun. Ultra's get Chronus who gives their tank +1bs, a bunch of other buffs and can jump out of his tank and fight on foot if it gets knocked out.
Scouts? Orks have that Kommando character who gets a couple of buffs. By contrast let me introduce you to Telion, master of everything related to sneaky and sharpshooting.
Tau get that battlesuit chick who is a good commander and gets some buffs. On the other hand here is Cato 'supreme strategy commander x1000000' Sicarius with his beautiful buffs and awesome rules, not to mention stats and gear.
Guard get Ursakar E. 'Tactical Geniius' Creed whom is the supreme military mind in the Imperium and has commaded countless battles. In the other camp say hello to Rawbutt Girlymann, the suprememe commander who gets every single strategy buff there is and a bunch of other massive buffs too.
Eldrad is this amazing Eldar psyker whom has mastered and honed his art over millennia. Enter Tigrius the Sue, master of psychic might and the lord of the warp, bestest of psykers.
Old One Eye is a carnifex that survived being shot by anti-armour weapons, frozen and the severing of its synapse connection, a murder machine in close quarters. But look, its dual powerfists mcUltrachaptermaster coming to punch him into the dirt!

Whenever I read anything Ultramarines related it makes me think about Eragon, or the Eragon fanfic that lurks out there on the web - poorly written with mary sur/marty stu charactrs whom are written to be perfect in every way, barring some slight flaw that the author may have allowed to blemish their abomination in a feeble attempt to give them some depth/make them not seem like a giant turd. The story tends to similar lines, with the Ultra MC's taking on seemingly impossible tasks with no hope of success only to overcome it by using creative thinking and strategy(!) that their hopelessly incompetent foes fail to overcome as everything turns out just as planned.

Simply put, Ultramarines are bland, boring, mary sued to death, far too popular and in-your-face and have atrocious fluff. They are badly thought out and badly written and need to be sidelined in favour of a better chapter, but that will never happen.

To be fair, when the Ultramarines first had their explosion of special characters,

.. Explosion? 5th edition gave them two, after removing one and making it generic (Tyrannic War Veterans)

But you can see people still hate on the Ultramarines quite clearly at this point. It's certainly not played or tired out with the same reasons trotted out time and time again even if many of them aren't true.. Or very applicable to their own "special snowflake chapter" to begin with.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
You should play warhammer space marine. I think you can get it for really cheap on steam. It's probably the best war-hammer game ever. It is IMO. Anyways - it might change your view of the ultra marines if you hate them. Captain Titus is the embodiment of what a space marine is.

This. It actually shows examples of Good Ultramarines, and Bad Ultramarines - Titus as the good, being humanitarian (a UM trait), and not being obsessive over the codex but still tactically minded, and Leandros as the more callous, calculating Codex lover.

Exalted bro.

There is nothing wrong with UltraMarines. I've had fun playing against them and have not experienced That Guy, as of yet. I've had more issues with Daemon players than UM players.

However, if UM get 10x unique characters, then you should either let every other chapter use them as a counts-as stand-in, give the 8 loyalist legions 10x each (that can be taken by their successor chapters), or do away with special rules for ALL unique characters.

Also, I built this fething thing when it was available in Apoc games for all Space Marines, but now only UM get to use it? I call bull gak!

All Space Marines are gary-stus. We focus on UM because they are put into the limelight more for GWs advertising, aside from Ward doing the dumbest things imaginable with them and every other thing he touches (though with exceptions).

 Xenomancers wrote:
You should play warhammer space marine. I think you can get it for really cheap on steam. It's probably the best war-hammer game ever. It is IMO. Anyways - it might change your view of the ultra marines if you hate them. Captain Titus is the embodiment of what a space marine is.

Yes but that captains only cool because he ignores the codex, which is why the ending goes as it does.

He's enjoyable for the same reason ventris from the books is, they arnt really ultramarines.

hobojebus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
You should play warhammer space marine. I think you can get it for really cheap on steam. It's probably the best war-hammer game ever. It is IMO. Anyways - it might change your view of the ultra marines if you hate them. Captain Titus is the embodiment of what a space marine is.

Yes but that captains only cool because he ignores the codex, which is why the ending goes as it does.

He's enjoyable for the same reason ventris from the books is, they arnt really ultramarines.

Personally I like much more "Legal" characters, the kind of legal that follow the rules even if it is inconvenient because if you don't follow the rules, what are you different from Chaos?

The "Omg I'm edgy and I only follow my on rules" kind of characters feel to me the most boring ones.

hobojebus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
You should play warhammer space marine. I think you can get it for really cheap on steam. It's probably the best war-hammer game ever. It is IMO. Anyways - it might change your view of the ultra marines if you hate them. Captain Titus is the embodiment of what a space marine is.

Yes but that captains only cool because he ignores the codex, which is why the ending goes as it does.

He's enjoyable for the same reason ventris from the books is, they arnt really ultramarines.

He Titus and Ventris don't ignore the Codex, they just are somehow aware of Guilliman's original intent that they Codex isn't dogma that must be followed to the letter, but that it helps lay out the situations and correct responses, but that you should be able to make your own calls. Leandros represents the Ultramarines that are too rigid.

I don't think I said it outright but I don't hate Ultramarines. I just think they are not as interesting as the rest of the 8 loyalist legions/main chapters or the famous successor chapters.

Of course, Ultramarines still get eff-ton of points for being Imperial. They're still way more interesting than anything chaos, don'tevengetmestartedonthemmmmgh.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Guilliman was prepared to return for quite some time before he did. In fact, he, alongside Lion, was the most likely to come back. This was before 5th (I think), so before Ward, and all the same - what if it was a different Primarch? How would that make it better? Why do Traitors get to have their Primarchs come back, and Loyalists don't?

Because Chaos Primarchs have always existed in the fluff. Sure, it might be a bit lame if all Death Guard armies will end up being led by Mortarion, but giving Daemon Primarchs rules and models doesn't actually damage the theme of the setting like a loyalist Primarch does.

 Crimson wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Guilliman was prepared to return for quite some time before he did. In fact, he, alongside Lion, was the most likely to come back. This was before 5th (I think), so before Ward, and all the same - what if it was a different Primarch? How would that make it better? Why do Traitors get to have their Primarchs come back, and Loyalists don't?

Because Chaos Primarchs have always existed in the fluff. Sure, it might be a bit lame if all Death Guard armies will end up being led by Mortarion, but giving Daemon Primarchs rules and models doesn't actually damage the theme of the setting like a loyalist Primarch does.

It was always pretty clear that the loyalist Primarchs will return at some point in time.

And that time is now.

Edit: Heck, even Ferrus Manus and Sanguinius could return. Ferrus Manus as some kind of highly advanced cyborg and if anyone will return from outright death, it's Sanguinius.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

hobojebus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
You should play warhammer space marine. I think you can get it for really cheap on steam. It's probably the best war-hammer game ever. It is IMO. Anyways - it might change your view of the ultra marines if you hate them. Captain Titus is the embodiment of what a space marine is.

Yes but that captains only cool because he ignores the codex, which is why the ending goes as it does.

He's enjoyable for the same reason ventris from the books is, they arnt really ultramarines.

He Titus and Ventris don't ignore the Codex, they just are somehow aware of Guilliman's original intent that they Codex isn't dogma that must be followed to the letter, but that it helps lay out the situations and correct responses, but that you should be able to make your own calls. Leandros represents the Ultramarines that are too rigid.

The "Ultramarines that accept that the Codex isn't dogma" thing is actually my biggest complaint about how Matt Ward wrote them. The stick-up-ass Codex-is-always-right inflexibility felt like it made the Ultramarines interesting, set up personal conflicts when they ran into the limits of the Codex, but since 5e it's all gone off into "the Ultramarines know exactly when to folllow the Codex and when to ignore it because they're perfect and always right". Every appearance has to involve the newbie going "but the Codex..." and the grizzled veteran going "listen to me, not the Codex, I'm cooler", and it ends up feeling like their personality has died and they've been shoved into the bland Mary-Sue-protagonist role where we're supposed to take their word for things because they're the protagonists and because the author likes them too much to make them wrong about anything.

I'm aware that this is subjective and plenty of people are going to read that whole description and come back with "...so...what's wrong with that?", but that's why I find the Ultramarines irritating.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RedCommander wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Guilliman was prepared to return for quite some time before he did. In fact, he, alongside Lion, was the most likely to come back. This was before 5th (I think), so before Ward, and all the same - what if it was a different Primarch? How would that make it better? Why do Traitors get to have their Primarchs come back, and Loyalists don't?

Because Chaos Primarchs have always existed in the fluff. Sure, it might be a bit lame if all Death Guard armies will end up being led by Mortarion, but giving Daemon Primarchs rules and models doesn't actually damage the theme of the setting like a loyalist Primarch does.

It was always pretty clear that the loyalist Primarchs will return at some point in time.

And that time is now.

Edit: Heck, even Ferrus Manus and Sanguinius could return. Ferrus Manus as some kind of highly advanced cyborg and if anyone will return from outright death, it's Sanguinius.

(That's why Mephiston is S/T5. The Black Rage is Sanguinius' psychic gost, who has spent ten thousand years re-constituting his consciousness to the point where he can return, and he's preparing a suitable vessel for his ascension.)

(What GW does is inevitably going to be boring and involve the Sanguinor, unfortunately.)

 RedCommander wrote:

It was always pretty clear that the loyalist Primarchs will return at some point in time.

No. It was King Arthur style 'will return in one day' legend. It never needed to actually happen.

And that time is now.

Unfortunately yes. And the setting is kinda ruined. It was not enough for the Primarch fanboys to have an entire separate game and novel series to dedicated to the antics of these superheroes, and now 40K will be about that too.

@AnomanderRake - it's the same conflict that startrek captains deal with - with the prime directive. The most interesting characters Picard, Sisko, Kirk - they have all broken the prime directive at least once for the good of humanity, or their crews. It's really not interesting to watch ideals destroy people - it's much more interesting to watch them bend their ideals IMO.

master of ordinance wrote:I hate Ultra's because of what they are. Overperfect glorious marty-stu's who do everything and have everything (literally) and have no real flaws beyond "being a bit pridefu;". That is not a flaw, not when your strength is quite literally "everything but +1".

Did you mistake to put Space Wolves instead of Ultramarines?

They're FAR more egregious on the Marty Stu territory, in both 30k AND 40k. Ultramarines are clearly not perfect, or else we wouldn't see things like:
- Their overreliance on the Codex.
- The pride sometimes blinding them, and leading them to folly and destruction (hi Lamenters, Fall of Damnos and Battle for Macragge)
- Some of their commanders feeling left out by a changing universe (hi Calgar)

They're well respected, but is that surprising coming from one of the most INTACT and successful Legions? Their main trait, if any, is organisation and discipline. Which just so happens to be a reason they have one of the most stable geneseeds, leading to MORE successors.
They still can't, yanno, actively declare war on an Inquisitor and still be treated as innocent. They still can't actively field mutants in their ranks and still be widely beloved. They can't field a Chapter well over the standard size and handwave it away. They aren't the masters of CQC, naval, anti-psychic, armoured, melee combat that the Space Wolves are.

The Ultramarines might be glorious, I'll give you that. But they're clearly not overperfect with their flaws. No, the Space Wolves are far worse in quality than Ultras.

On the first page someone compared them to that kid in the playground who's pretend character has all the powers but better than everyone else and is unbeatable and in all honesty that is the best description I have heard in a long time.

And I told them exactly what I told you. They're nothing on the Wolves.

Tank commanders? Guard have Pask who gives us rerolls to hit and a slight buff to the main gun. Ultra's get Chronus who gives their tank +1bs, a bunch of other buffs and can jump out of his tank and fight on foot if it gets knocked out.

And that's an in-game effect, not to mention comparing across two different codexes. Why don't you complain that Creed only gets a 4+, but Space Marine BASIC Captains can get a 3+?

Different codexes, different tanks, different rules.

Scouts? Orks have that Kommando character who gets a couple of buffs. By contrast let me introduce you to Telion, master of everything related to sneaky and sharpshooting.

Master? Did I miss something? He's a good shot, but guess who's better - Vindicare Assassins.

Tau get that battlesuit chick who is a good commander and gets some buffs. On the other hand here is Cato 'supreme strategy commander x1000000' Sicarius with his beautiful buffs and awesome rules, not to mention stats and gear.

And Shadowsun was never ever taken at all for Deathstars in 6th/7th, and Cato was a staple of Deathstar lists, obviously. /s
Shadowsun was invaluable for her defensive abilities which created Deathstars around her. Cato got ONE buff for one Tactical Squad, and a morale boost effect. He was never taken at all.

Guard get Ursakar E. 'Tactical Geniius' Creed whom is the supreme military mind in the Imperium and has commaded countless battles. In the other camp say hello to Rawbutt Girlymann, the suprememe commander who gets every single strategy buff there is and a bunch of other massive buffs too.

Sorry, did Creed ever write a book which is literally the cornerstone of Imperial tactics and organisation? Has he ever been Lord Commander of the Imperium? Is he, by any chance, the superhuman offspring of the Emperor himself, being the best of his kind at strategy and logistics?
No?

Maybe that's because Creed IS good. For a human. Guilliman is beyond human in nearly every manner. That's hardly surprising, is it?

Eldrad is this amazing Eldar psyker whom has mastered and honed his art over millennia. Enter Tigrius the Sue, master of psychic might and the lord of the warp, bestest of psykers.

And isn't Mephiston, well, better? Tigurius has one niche, his ability to tap into the Hive Mind. Beyond that, he's not too special, for a Chief Librarian.
Mephiston - well, he fought off the Red Thirst, survived a building falling on him, and is generally better than every other unaugmented Space Marine.

Old One Eye is a carnifex that survived being shot by anti-armour weapons, frozen and the severing of its synapse connection, a murder machine in close quarters. But look, its dual powerfists mcUltrachaptermaster coming to punch him into the dirt!

Well, he IS a Chapter Master of one of the most prestigious Chapter out there. I'd be surprised if a Carnifex did succeed where the Swarmlord failed.

And yes, powerfists mcUltrachaptermaster was defeated once by Swarmy. Then the man adapted and beat the Swarmlord at it's own game.

Whenever I read anything Ultramarines related it makes me think about Eragon, or the Eragon fanfic that lurks out there on the web - poorly written with mary sur/marty stu charactrs whom are written to be perfect in every way, barring some slight flaw that the author may have allowed to blemish their abomination in a feeble attempt to give them some depth/make them not seem like a giant turd. The story tends to similar lines, with the Ultra MC's taking on seemingly impossible tasks with no hope of success only to overcome it by using creative thinking and strategy(!) that their hopelessly incompetent foes fail to overcome as everything turns out just as planned.

And this doesn't apply to the Space Wolves more?
Seriously, the Ultramarines are the ONLY chapter who's flaw manifests outside of the universe. They're the only one with an ACTUAL flaw, because this thread EXISTS. They're seen as TOO perfect, when that's just a lot of meming, hyping, and over-the-top reactions to some bad writing that happened three editions ago. There are far worse offenders, and yet people go for the Ultramarines because it's cool to hate the "order" faction, the poster boy, the one which isn't edgyyy and fatally tragic.

Simply put, Ultramarines are bland, boring, mary sued to death, far too popular and in-your-face and have atrocious fluff. They are badly thought out and badly written and need to be sidelined in favour of a better chapter, but that will never happen.

Most of this is opinion, or simply misinformed falsehood, as I say above.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

To be fair, when the Ultramarines first had their explosion of special characters,

.. Explosion? 5th edition gave them two, after removing one and making it generic (Tyrannic War Veterans)

Sicarius, Cassius, Telion and Chronus didn't exist before 5th, to my knowledge.

But you can see people still hate on the Ultramarines quite clearly at this point. It's certainly not played or tired out with the same reasons trotted out time and time again even if many of them aren't true.. Or very applicable to their own "special snowflake chapter" to begin with.

Pretty much.

Crimson wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Guilliman was prepared to return for quite some time before he did. In fact, he, alongside Lion, was the most likely to come back. This was before 5th (I think), so before Ward, and all the same - what if it was a different Primarch? How would that make it better? Why do Traitors get to have their Primarchs come back, and Loyalists don't?

Because Chaos Primarchs have always existed in the fluff. Sure, it might be a bit lame if all Death Guard armies will end up being led by Mortarion, but giving Daemon Primarchs rules and models doesn't actually damage the theme of the setting like a loyalist Primarch does.

Well, except that nearly ALL Loyalist Primarchs were given space to come back (barring Ferrus and Sanguinius, and Dorn to a lesser degree) - the not-dead-until-a-body-is-found rule applies well here. Even if it's just a legend, that doesn't mean it can't happen, or shouldn't. After all, it's GW's universe.
And even if not, Lion and Guilliman were CERTAINLY in the position too come back, with in-universe rumours of Guilliman healing in stasis.

You can't have shadow without light. Having the Imperium lose one of their strongest bastions and half the galaxy with it is a massive blow to the empire, but hope returns in the form of Guilliman. It's a new narrative direction, but it certainly doesn't detract that humanity is STILL fethed, now more than ever before. Just because Guilliman's back doesn't mean the Imperium has suddenly won. They just have more to lose.