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Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
So we should roll to see how many mortal wounds happen before DtW? What about saves against mortal wounds like fortune? Before or after the deny roll?

This isn't some clever interpretation, it's what happens if you just follow the steps in the book. We all automatically say "I'm casting Doom at your terminators" but that's not what the rules tell you to do. I would assume that in previous editions the rules were worded differently and that's why we're all still doing it.


You would roll for the saves against mortal wounds after the deny roll. As that is when the effects of the psychic power are resolved and applied.
   
Made in gb
Irked Necron Immortal



UK, Midlands

Korbee11 wrote:
So, here are my 2 cents, and I am going to use Smite as the exmaple, as I am sure we all know what it does.

Choose psyker - Bob.
Bob decides to attempt to manifest smite.
Bob succeeds at psychic test.
Smite is successfully manifested.
-> Follow the psychic power. Closest Visible enemy is chosen. a D3 is rolled, resulting in a 2.
Opponent then gets the chance to Deny.
If failed, apply the effects and finish resolution.


Deny the Witch does not stop the manifesting of a power. It resists and negates its effects.

While I can see why both sides, I am going to side on the 'targetting happens before deny' and the like.
If Deny the Witch negates the effects of a psychic power, then the effects have to have been applied first. Can't negate something that hasn't happened yet.

Man, if only GW took the side of Easy to read rules as opposed to Super fluffy writing.


I've bolded the bit where you went wrong. The rulebook does not say to do that. You're jumping the gun/mind bullet.

   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol






The existence of this bit in the Stepping Into A New Edition FAQ lends credence to the "target first" school of thought:

Q. Can I roll to Deny the Witch with a psyker that is not targeted directly by a psychic power?
A. Yes.

(if you target after DtW this wouldn't even be a question, and that would have been their answer)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/18 22:05:10


I scratch-built a Macharius Vulcan, Thunderbolt and Spartan! Have a peek at the build and my painting progress here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/513429.page

My all-plastic Praetorian build log: http://bit.ly/1K7gn7J

People who say "special snowflake" a lot tend to be unpleasant people.

 
   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
[

I've bolded the bit where you went wrong. The rulebook does not say to do that. You're jumping the gun/mind bullet.



I disagree that I have gone wrong. However, I am pretty certain the argument is Cyclical in nature, and we would get nowhere but very frustrated at one another.
How about, we agree to disagree, until a clear answer is given?


Edit: Got rid of a tower of quotes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/18 22:12:11


 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Striking Scorpion





WA, USA

That FAQ thing was also from a previous edition though

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/18 22:14:13


~ 14,500+ Craftworlders ~ 1800 Frozen Stars Harlequins ~ 1250 Coterie of the Last Breath Corsairs ~

I also write for www.thewardolls.com
   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




 Red_Ink_Cat wrote:
That FAQ thing was also from a previous edition though

Uh, no, it is from the current 8th edition.
Assuming you are talking about JohnnyHell's comment.

Here is a link
https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_stepping_into_a_new_edition_en.pdf
   
Made in us
Sneaky Striking Scorpion





WA, USA

Whoops, I was a bit too vague there. I meant that using deny the witch only against something that targeted your Psyker was a 7th ed thing (with a few notable exceptions - psychic hood), so it was a substantial change that needed to be noted.

~ 14,500+ Craftworlders ~ 1800 Frozen Stars Harlequins ~ 1250 Coterie of the Last Breath Corsairs ~

I also write for www.thewardolls.com
   
Made in es
Furious Fire Dragon





 JohnnyHell wrote:
The existence of this bit in the Stepping Into A New Edition FAQ lends credence to the "target first" school of thought:

Q. Can I roll to Deny the Witch with a psyker that is not targeted directly by a psychic power?
A. Yes.

(if you target after DtW this wouldn't even be a question, and that would have been their answer)


That's irrelevant Jhonny since in 8th Dtw it's resolved from psyker to psyker manifesting you can Dtw if your psyker it is within 24 of the enemy one manifesting even if the target of the power it is 40'' away.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/19 08:29:25


 
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol






 Lord Perversor wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
The existence of this bit in the Stepping Into A New Edition FAQ lends credence to the "target first" school of thought:

Q. Can I roll to Deny the Witch with a psyker that is not targeted directly by a psychic power?
A. Yes.

(if you target after DtW this wouldn't even be a question, and that would have been their answer)


That's irrelevant Jhonny since in 8th Dtw it's resolved from psyker to psyker manifesting you can Dtw if your psyker it is within 24 of the enemy one manifesting even if the target of the power it is 40'' away.



An 8th edition FAQ is not irrelevant to 8th edition. I'm referencing an 8th edition document.

You missed my point, but a poster above shed some better light on why it might be phrased this way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This guy:

 Red_Ink_Cat wrote:
Whoops, I was a bit too vague there. I meant that using deny the witch only against something that targeted your Psyker was a 7th ed thing (with a few notable exceptions - psychic hood), so it was a substantial change that needed to be noted.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/19 09:11:03


I scratch-built a Macharius Vulcan, Thunderbolt and Spartan! Have a peek at the build and my painting progress here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/513429.page

My all-plastic Praetorian build log: http://bit.ly/1K7gn7J

People who say "special snowflake" a lot tend to be unpleasant people.

 
   
Made in es
Furious Fire Dragon





Spoiler:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
 Lord Perversor wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
The existence of this bit in the Stepping Into A New Edition FAQ lends credence to the "target first" school of thought:

Q. Can I roll to Deny the Witch with a psyker that is not targeted directly by a psychic power?
A. Yes.

(if you target after DtW this wouldn't even be a question, and that would have been their answer)


That's irrelevant Jhonny since in 8th Dtw it's resolved from psyker to psyker manifesting you can Dtw if your psyker it is within 24 of the enemy one manifesting even if the target of the power it is 40'' away.



An 8th edition FAQ is not irrelevant to 8th edition. I'm referencing an 8th edition document.

You missed my point, but a poster above shed some better light on why it might be phrased this way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This guy:

 Red_Ink_Cat wrote:
Whoops, I was a bit too vague there. I meant that using deny the witch only against something that targeted your Psyker was a 7th ed thing (with a few notable exceptions - psychic hood), so it was a substantial change that needed to be noted.


My apologies as i worded poorly my response JohnnyHell, as Red_Ink_cat better pointed it was in reference to the changes from 7th while in 7th you were able to DtW from anywhere (as long you had enough Warp charges) while in 8th you need to have your psyker (or unit able to DtW) at XX range from the manifesting psyker.

Also it's worth to notice some of the *steping into a new edition* and early Index FAQs *specific Questions* where poorly worded and still caused confusion and dissent among some people. Something we must remember it's that sometimes we carry some precoinceived ideas from previous editions because *we are used to do it like that* (quick example the way some people count wounds on their models) and sometimes some fresh eyes on the rules can make a fair point without trying to cheese the rules.

P.S: on a personal note i couldn't care less wich way is done but i must admit the declaring the target after it pass the DtW bring some *tension* and extra tactics to the table.
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol






 Lord Perversor wrote:
Spoiler:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
 Lord Perversor wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
The existence of this bit in the Stepping Into A New Edition FAQ lends credence to the "target first" school of thought:

Q. Can I roll to Deny the Witch with a psyker that is not targeted directly by a psychic power?
A. Yes.

(if you target after DtW this wouldn't even be a question, and that would have been their answer)


That's irrelevant Jhonny since in 8th Dtw it's resolved from psyker to psyker manifesting you can Dtw if your psyker it is within 24 of the enemy one manifesting even if the target of the power it is 40'' away.



An 8th edition FAQ is not irrelevant to 8th edition. I'm referencing an 8th edition document.

You missed my point, but a poster above shed some better light on why it might be phrased this way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This guy:

 Red_Ink_Cat wrote:
Whoops, I was a bit too vague there. I meant that using deny the witch only against something that targeted your Psyker was a 7th ed thing (with a few notable exceptions - psychic hood), so it was a substantial change that needed to be noted.


My apologies as i worded poorly my response JohnnyHell, as Red_Ink_cat better pointed it was in reference to the changes from 7th while in 7th you were able to DtW from anywhere (as long you had enough Warp charges) while in 8th you need to have your psyker (or unit able to DtW) at XX range from the manifesting psyker.

Also it's worth to notice some of the *steping into a new edition* and early Index FAQs *specific Questions* where poorly worded and still caused confusion and dissent among some people. Something we must remember it's that sometimes we carry some precoinceived ideas from previous editions because *we are used to do it like that* (quick example the way some people count wounds on their models) and sometimes some fresh eyes on the rules can make a fair point without trying to cheese the rules.

P.S: on a personal note i couldn't care less wich way is done but i must admit the declaring the target after it pass the DtW bring some *tension* and extra tactics to the table.


Yeah I kinda like it! "I'm casting X." "On who?" "Not saying!"

You can still only attempt most powers once anyway so it's shouldn't be too tough to guess targets. The airbof mystery adds a little bluffing game.

I scratch-built a Macharius Vulcan, Thunderbolt and Spartan! Have a peek at the build and my painting progress here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/513429.page

My all-plastic Praetorian build log: http://bit.ly/1K7gn7J

People who say "special snowflake" a lot tend to be unpleasant people.

 
   
Made in es
Furious Fire Dragon





And it just hit me.

Concordance of Power: Eldar stratagem.

Use this stratagem when an Asuryani Warlock conclave suscessfully manifest a runes of battle Psychic power. You can double the range of the power that was manifested.

someone mentioned in the Eldar Tactica the odd wording of it, since you need to use the Stratagem before manifesting the power in order to target a unit, but if the Op interpretation is right this just fits perfectly.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/19 15:45:26


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





The OP interpretation has no impact on the Concordance of Power - it is used after successfully manifesting to double the range to target. It works at the same time regardless of targeting.
   
Made in gb
Irked Necron Immortal



UK, Midlands

It was the concordance of power strat that made me look into the timing in the first place. It's how I found that choosing targets is after deny.
   
Made in au
Sacrifice to the Dark God Tzeentch




Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
Korbee11 wrote:
So, here are my 2 cents, and I am going to use Smite as the exmaple, as I am sure we all know what it does.

Choose psyker - Bob.
Bob decides to attempt to manifest smite.
Bob succeeds at psychic test.
Smite is successfully manifested.
-> Follow the psychic power. Closest Visible enemy is chosen. a D3 is rolled, resulting in a 2.
Opponent then gets the chance to Deny.
If failed, apply the effects and finish resolution.


Deny the Witch does not stop the manifesting of a power. It resists and negates its effects.

While I can see why both sides, I am going to side on the 'targetting happens before deny' and the like.
If Deny the Witch negates the effects of a psychic power, then the effects have to have been applied first. Can't negate something that hasn't happened yet.

Man, if only GW took the side of Easy to read rules as opposed to Super fluffy writing.


I've bolded the bit where you went wrong. The rulebook does not say to do that. You're jumping the gun/mind bullet.


yes it does not say that, it says to make a deny the witch test immediately after the power has been manifested with a psyker within 24". That's basically what the first sentence of deny the witch says.
so RAW you choose Psyker Bob then Bob decides to attempt to cast smite. Bob passes the psychic test to manifest smite then straight away an enemy psyker can attempt to deny that power after it has been successfully manifested. If the deny has failed then you follow the psychic power- closest visible enemy is chosen (or pick your target if the power tells you to) and roll to see how many mortal wounds you cause. But I do see where people are getting confused with unnecessary fluff piece of the rule. Where it's telling you how psyker is denying the power that the psyker resists the power and negates it's effects all of that is just some descriptive fluff for you to visualize on how the enemy psyker denys the power.
   
Made in us
Furious Fire Dragon





USA

So what is the answer here?

Going with Concordance of Power line of thought....is it prior or after the Strategem?

A deny the Witch roll that also negates a use of a CP and then wasted is kinda huge.

???

 KingCorpus wrote:
If you are amazed with how good Eldar are, maybe space marines aren't the army for you. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Spoiler:
One thing I think is weird is breaking up the text. Periods aren't functional pauses and nothing really says "if resolved do x."

I see it as its either.

You manifest and do all effects and then negate said effects with a deny.

Or

You manifest then deny, then negate all effect.

English has clear markers for how to sun divide things, and the wording of most powers are not sub divides in that way.

For instance the argument of conceal/reveal and other runes of battle say "if manifest choose x." If I use your intuition of sub dividing everything after mandating. Then when I cast conceal reveal i can just say i choose reveal, and not pick a target as manifest isn't in the same sentense... Which is pretty meaningless.


So I think either the whole spell goes off or none of it does before deny the witch. As there is no concrete divider, and no further signally world's in the various paragraphs.


Ignore the spoilers it was a thought before i re-read the rules of the game:

You can read my spoiler if you want, but this whole argument is pointless. deny happens immediately. This precedes any other rules. It must happen right now. If your gonna die it must happen directly after manifest as it has a priority word in the text. Spells do not say "if manifested immediately pick a target." As such you must immediately deny before the other player takes any other action. So you do not pick targets or partly resolve any of the effects of the power at all.

" A psyker can a attempt to resist a psychic power that has been manifested by an enemy model within 24" by taking a deny the witch test - this takes place immediately "

That bold is the ends of the arguement

Edit: interestingly this is a buff to warlock conclaves and a nerf to the runes of battle discipline:.

Deny happens before you have to pick to use concordance of power, so thats a buff to conclaves as you don't have to waste CP.

However, runes of battle only lets you cast the same power twice (or the opposite side) if you mannifested before hand... as you enver get to chose conceal or reveal for instance. SO you can'y then cast the opposite if you got denied. As the note states that you can attempt reveal if you manifested conceal earlier <.< Quote " that manifests conceal can attempt to manifest reveal"

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/01/01 17:45:42


 
   
 
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