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Made in gb
Irked Necron Immortal



UK, Midlands

I think a lot of people (including myself) have been doing the Psychic phase wrong.

This came up in the Eldar tactics thread due to the way the Concordance of Power stratagem is worded.

Powers are cast as follows:

1) You roll the Psy test
2) If successful your opponent can try and deny it.
3) If they fail to deny it you resolve the power.

You don't pick the target of a power till step 3, which means that your opponent does not know the target when they have to decide whether or not to Deny the Witch.

That's actually pretty significant.


I think this is correct but if it's up for debate this thread should be moved to YMDC.


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/18 15:04:01


 
   
Made in us
Walking Dead Wraithlord






If correct it is indeed a change to way I've been playing. A bit more sneaky too, not a bad thing.

 
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





That is correct, though since you can only cast each power once it is not that big of an advantage. The only power that can be cast multiple times has obvious targets because it targets the closest enemy unit.

For instance if you had Magnus and you were casting the +1 invul save power. I'd try to deny it even if you did not declare him as the target. This would only really matter if the rule of one was that a unit could only be the target of a specific power one time.

I mean as an opponent you should always assume the worst possible target for you, which I guess is the slight change, you don't get to decide if you care about that target getting the buff/damage/debuff.

Honestly unless I have a ton of psykers to deny with I often deny based on my opponents roll. If you roll an 11 on a power I'm not trying to debuff it if you have any other powers because I have low likelihood of shutting you down.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/18 15:07:34


 
   
Made in gb
Irked Necron Immortal



UK, Midlands

The difference it makes will often be minor or irrelevant, but it applies to a whole phase of the game and will definitely matter in many situations.

As an Eldar player it will come up for me all the time.

"I'm casting Doom"
"Where?"
"Secret"

"I'm casting Conceal"
"Where?"
"Secret"

My opponents often spend a lot of time thinking about where to use their limited denies when they do have all the info.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/18 15:11:25


 
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
The difference it makes will often be minor or irrelevant, but it applies to a whole phase of the game and will definitely matter in many situations.

As an Eldar player it will come up for me all the time.

"I'm casting Doom"
"Where?"
"Secret"

"I'm casting Conceal"
"Where?"
"Secret"

My opponents often spend a lot of time thinking about where to use their limited denies when they do have all the info.


I mean he knows what model is casting which power so he can make some educated choices anyway. IT just changes it from "do I care if that unit gets x" to "is there a unit in range I care about getting x" In the end it will often still come down to which powers are most likely to get denied. IF you roll an 11 on conceal I'm not trying to deny it because I won't.

The change really will be it will be
" this warlock is casting conceal"
Rolls a 7
"do you want to deny?"

Instead of "this warlock is casting conceal on x"
Rolls a 7
"do you want to deny?"

The biggest change will honestly be for players remembering not to mention the target. Rather than on the defending player.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





I do not agree. All psychic powers say 'if manifested choose...' (referencing the CSM, Eldar and Tyranid books I have immediately at hand) and per page 178 of the main rule book under section 2 it says

"If the total is equal to or greater than the power's warp charge value the power is successfully manifested.

Emphasis my own. However we can see the power is manifested before the deny step (which is step 3 of the sequence).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/18 15:50:12


 
   
Made in gb
Irked Necron Immortal



UK, Midlands

They say if manifested do "xy+z". Choosing a target is part of "xy+z" as much as inflicting mortal wounds is (or whatever the power does), you can't shove Deny the Witch in half way through the instructions on how to resolve a power.

   
Made in us
Nasty Nob





Denver, Colorado

I think farseer is correct - when you manifest the power in step 2, the powers generally tell you to pick a target.

Having said that, I kind of like the way the OP described it as being played. It seems more fluffy and more interesting in game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/18 16:06:35


"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.". Words to live by, especially for ork players waiting for a new codex.  
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
They say if manifested do "xy+z". Choosing a target is part of "xy+z" as much as inflicting mortal wounds is (or whatever the power does), you can't shove Deny the Witch in half way through the instructions on how to resolve a power.



You in fact can - per the exact language of the rulebook. It tells you to manifest, follow applicable steps, deny, then resolve. The use of the word manifest is specific, psychic powers are manifested before you deny the witch - this is spelled out in step by step detail.
   
Made in gb
Irked Necron Immortal



UK, Midlands

The core rules say:

1) Choose Psyker and power
2) Make Test
3) DtW
4) Resolve power as described in the powers wording.

Targeting is part of the wording of how to resolve a power (not all powers are targeted). This has turned into a YMDC thread when it didn't need to.


The confusion comes from the Psychic powers mentioning the test to cast the power but not the DtW test. The same argument you are making could be used to say that smite inflicts mortal wounds before the DtW roll lol.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/18 16:13:11


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





It turned in to one because this isn't a simple 'you are correct'. RAW you select the target once the power is manifested which happens after the psychic test and before the DtW. I don't intend to be pedantic however I do believe it is worth pointing out that there is a counter argument and that people should be aware of that before altering their course of play.

To further elucidate - from a strictly RAW stand point you can still DtW on smite even using the appropriate language. Step 3 says

"A psyker can attempt to resist a psychic power that has been manifested by an enemy model..." so this doesn't preclude smite being denied.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/12/18 16:18:44


 
   
Made in gb
Irked Necron Immortal



UK, Midlands

 Farseer_V2 wrote:

To further elucidate - from a strictly RAW stand point, I'd argue that in fact you cannot deny smite because it says 'if manifested'. Ultimately I see both sides of the coin but there is clearly a capacity to interpret this in a different way than 'choose a target after deny'.


It's not just smite, it's all powers, which makes the argument on a par with the old "terminators don't wear terminator armour"- A complete non-starter.

You edited. You still seem to be saying that you should cast the power, resolve any part of the power with the word "target" in it, DtW, then resolve the bits that don't have the word target in. What makes the instruction "pick a target" different from "roll a D6 and inflict wounds"?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/18 16:32:45


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





If you'll check the edit there I've revised upon further review my thought process - the rules in this case are actually fairly cleanly stated. You may attempt to deny a manifested power - it is stated in the deny the witch step (and again reference a central term - manifested). The key issue here is GW chose to use a specific phrase and term here (uncommon for GW of course) in that they continue to use 'manifested' - you chose a target for a power when it is manifested, you then deny a manifested power, you then resolve a manifested power. Following the rules, as they are written, says you choose a target for a psychic power once it is manifested, not resolved.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/18 16:27:37


 
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





I can see both sides The issue appears to be that they use manifested for the wording in the power and in the deny step.

Almost all powers consist of 2 sentences.

For instance the ork power warpath says
"If manifested select a friendly ork unit within 6" of the psyker. Increase that units attack characteristic by 1 until your next psychic phase."

Now 3 things could be true

1.) Manifesting the power results in all of those things happening at manifestation.
2.) Part of it happens during manifestation and part during resolution (it would make most sense for this to be at the period break in this case.)
3.) None of it happens until resolution

IF 1.) then technically you would apply all results and then if the deny is successful they are negated.

if 2.) You would apply only the first part, then if deny happens the second part is negated

if 3.) you would deny and if successful not bother with the rest of the power.

Smite breaks #2 because the suffering of wounds happens as part of the first portion of the power and as such denying it would never work.

So we are left with 1 and 3.

By the wording in the rulebook I believe #1 seems the most correct interpretation. However skipping all the rolling prior to the deny speeds up the process.

Psychic powers work as follows
1.) Choose a psyker and power
2.) Take a test, if successful the power is manifested
3.) Attempt to deny - if successful the effects are negated
4.) Resolve the psychic power -finalize any attacks.

IF #1 is correct for warpath
1.) choose a weird boy and the warpath power
2.) take the test, if successful my unit gets +1 attack
3.) If deny is successful, it negates my bonus for +1 attack.
4.) if not denied orks keep +1 attack.

IF #1 is correct for smite
1.) Choose psyker and smite power
2.) Take test, iff successful roll number of mortal wounds suffered.
3.) Deny, if denied the mortal wounds are negated
4.) finalize the result.

This actually makes things like smite worse if it is the case because you know how many mortal wounds you will take prior to the deny attempt.

However, do to the wording that deny "negates the effects of the power, not the power itself." this actually seems raw how deny works.

Deny does not cause a power to fail to be manifested, but instead negates its effects.

Then only issue with this is that the resolve step says resolve the effects that are described in the power itself. What does this mean exactly if you have already applied the result, if the deny fails.

Either way it seems unclear as to how exactly it works, and they have overused the word manifested in this context.
   
Made in gb
Irked Necron Immortal



UK, Midlands

 Farseer_V2 wrote:
If you'll check the edit there I've revised upon further review my thought process - the rules in this case are actually fairly cleanly stated. You may attempt to deny a manifested power - it is stated in the deny the witch step (and again reference a central term - manifested). The key issue here is GW chose to use a specific phrase and term here (uncommon for GW of course) in that they continue to use 'manifested' - you chose a target for a power when it is manifested, you then deny a manifested power, you then resolve a manifested power. Following the rules, as they are written, says you choose a target for a psychic power once it is manifested, not resolved.


Ok. Here is a Psychic power:

Doom

Doom has a warp charge value of 7. If manifested, choose an enemy unit within 24" of the Psyker. You can re-roll failed wound rolls against that unit until your next Psychic phase.

The first part tells you the cost to cast. The second (bolded by me ), part tells you how to resolve the power if successfully cast. Between these two parts your power can be either denied or prevented due to the psyker dying from perils. GW decided not to include the details of deny the witch and dying to perils in the wording of every single power in the game, foolishly assuming that the step by step instructions in thee main rule book would make this clear.

Now, you seem to think that there is some justification for inserting DtW and perils half way through the bolded part. There is not.

You either;

do it before the bolded, according to the steps in the rule book,

or;

you try and argue that "if manifested" refers to the wording in step 2 of the rulebook, and therefore get to resolve all of the bolded before DtW and dying from perils have an effect.


This second interpretation is obviously wrong as it in no way matches up with the step by step instructions in the rule book, but you would at least be making some attempt at a RAW interpretation. There is nothing in the rules to suggest that the instruction to choose a target is somehow distinct from the instruction to reroll to wound, both are the description of how to resolve the power.




Edit: My mind is boggled. The post above is going with the second option in my "Either/or"- doing step 4 in the rule book (resolving powers) before step 3 (DtW)!


I'm going to beat what is now hopefully a dead horse just to avoid confusion.

Executioner

Warp charge 7. If manifested, the nearest enemy unit suffers D3 mortal wounds. If a model in the target unit is slain as a result of this, the unit suffers an additional D3 mortal wounds.

Now, if you try and insert DtW between the two sentences that make up the description of how to resolve this power you should see how absurd your argument becomes. If the word "target" is still your issue, you will notice that it does not show up till the second sentence in this example.





This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/18 18:26:13


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Doom

Doom has a warp charge value of 7. If manifested, choose an enemy unit within 24" of the Psyker. You can re-roll failed wound rolls against that unit until your next Psychic phase.

This is very easy to see how to resolve - if manifested (which is clearly defined in the rulebook) you choose an enemy unit within 24". If the power is successfully resolved (i.e. not denied) then you re-roll failed wounds against that unit.

Executioner

Warp charge 7. If manifested, the nearest enemy unit suffers D3 mortal wounds. If a model in the target unit is slain as a result of this, the unit suffers an additional D3 mortal wounds.

Again - this is very easy to check resolution. If Executioner is manifested (again entirely defined, entirely inarguable because the rulebook tells us EXACTLY when a power is resolved) then the unit suffers D3 mortal wounds if resolved.

What you're doing is pushing manifesting into resolution which there is simply no cause to do - the rulebook is very clear when you have manifested a power and psychic powers are very clear that the target is selected when the power is manifested. The real issue here is you cannot present a compelling argument that suggests that a power is only manifested after deny the witch. This is clearly (i.e. unarguably) wrong because DtW specifically states you are attempting to deny an already manifested power.

The steps are

Roll Psychic Test - if successful power is resolved
If resolved select target and if necessary generate results
Deny the manifested power
If not denied then complete resolution

These steps are spelled out in the rulebook and codex.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/18 19:26:23


 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Striking Scorpion





WA, USA

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:

I'm going to beat what is now hopefully a dead horse just to avoid confusion.

Executioner

Warp charge 7. If manifested, the nearest enemy unit suffers D3 mortal wounds. If a model in the target unit is slain as a result of this, the unit suffers an additional D3 mortal wounds.

Now, if you try and insert DtW between the two sentences that make up the description of how to resolve this power you should see how absurd your argument becomes. If the word "target" is still your issue, you will notice that it does not show up till the second sentence in this example.

Thank you for beating the dead horse just to make everything super clear.

~ 14,500+ Craftworlders ~ 1800 Frozen Stars Harlequins ~ 1250 Coterie of the Last Breath Corsairs ~

I also write for www.thewardolls.com
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Your Perils argument hold no water, failing by perils and being denied are not the same thing, and do not happen at the same time. If you perils and die your power fails to manifest.

The repeated use of the word manifest is the problem, with how the section is written up.

The wording in the rules for Make a psychic test reads
"A psyker can attempt to manifest a psychic power they know by taking a psychic test. To do so, Roll 2D6. If the total is equal to or greater than the power's warp charge value, the power is successfully manifested."

Perils reads "If the psyker is slain by perils of the warp, the power they were attempting to manifest automatically fails..."

Deny reads "To do so, roll 2D6. IF the total is greater than the result of the psychic test, that MANIFESTED the power, it has been resisted and its effects are negated."

Resolve reads
"So long as the test was successful, they psyker did not die to perils, and the attempt was not thwarted by a deny the witch test, then you may resolve the effect of the psychic power."

The confusion comes in that regardless of whether the power is denied or not it was manifested. You cannot take a deny test unless the power was successfully manifested.

The way it should have been written was
Take a test, if this test is successful, the enemy can deny. If the test is passed, you don't die, and are not denied the power is manifested.

OR

The IF manifested language should be removed from the power itself because it is redundant because you don't resolve the power EVER unless it is manifested.

The way it is written is that as soon as you succeed in the test it is manifested. The power then says IF manifested do x. Then deny says if successful negate x.

Right now the resolve step is redundant, because of how the powers are written.

I'm not saying you are definitely wrong, just that as written it is unclear as to what order you are supposed to do things.

The easy fix is to remove the "IF MANIFESTED" language from all powers (it isn't needed, the base rules tell you that powers only happen if manifested).

   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




 Farseer_V2 wrote:
Following the rules, as they are written, says you choose a target for a psychic power once it is manifested, not resolved.


Where? There is absolutely no references regarding targeting or targets there.

1. Choose Psyker and Power
Some models are noted as being a PSYKER on their datasheet. Psykers can manifest their otherworldly abilities and attempt to deny enemy sorceries. The powers a psyker knows, and the number of powers they can attempt to manifest or deny each Psychic phase, are detailed on their datasheet.

2. Make Psychic Test
A psyker can attempt to manifest a psychic power they know by taking a Psychic test. To do so, roll 2D6. If the total is equal to or greater than that power’s warp charge value, the power is successfully manifested.

 Farseer_V2 wrote:


"A psyker can attempt to resist a psychic power that has been manifested by an enemy model...


Manifested =/= resolved. No resolution of any kind happens until step 4 where it is specifically enabled after all of those other tests have taken place.

 Farseer_V2 wrote:


Roll Psychic Test - if successful power is resolved
If resolved select target and if necessary generate results
Deny the manifested power
If not denied then complete resolution



You've inserted the word resolved into the 2nd step and that's where it goes wrong for your sequence in the same way you say that targeting is there. None of that is there, at all. It says nothing about targeting or resolving in any of the steps until step 4 where it is specifically enabled after all of the other tests have been passed.

4. Resolve Psychic Power
So long as the Psychic test was successful, the psyker did not die as a result of the Perils of the Warp, and the attempt was not thwarted by a Deny the Witch test, then you may resolve the effect of the psychic power, which will be described in the power itself.

It's:

Choose character and power
Pass the roll to manifest and live
Don't get denied
Resolve the description of the power (targeting is wholly contained within the description of the power)

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/12/18 20:38:54


 
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





The issue is that all powers say "If manifested, not if resolved." which they really shouldn't
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





BlackSwanDelta wrote:
 Farseer_V2 wrote:
Following the rules, as they are written, says you choose a target for a psychic power once it is manifested, not resolved.


Where? There is absolutely no references regarding targeting or targets there.

1. Choose Psyker and Power
Some models are noted as being a PSYKER on their datasheet. Psykers can manifest their otherworldly abilities and attempt to deny enemy sorceries. The powers a psyker knows, and the number of powers they can attempt to manifest or deny each Psychic phase, are detailed on their datasheet.

2. Make Psychic Test
A psyker can attempt to manifest a psychic power they know by taking a Psychic test. To do so, roll 2D6. If the total is equal to or greater than that power’s warp charge value, the power is successfully manifested.



Each and every psychic power has a line that states 'If manifested...' so yes there is 100% a WRITTEN reference to targeting and when it occurs.

Doom states - 'If manifested choose an enemy unit within 24", Conceal/Reveal states "If manifested choose one of the following", Catalyst states "If manifested select a friendly Tyranids unit..." - these are just a few examples where it specifically states 'If manifested, then' and we can clearly see exactly when a power is manifested.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/18 20:41:02


 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




 Farseer_V2 wrote:
BlackSwanDelta wrote:
 Farseer_V2 wrote:
Following the rules, as they are written, says you choose a target for a psychic power once it is manifested, not resolved.


Where? There is absolutely no references regarding targeting or targets there.

1. Choose Psyker and Power
Some models are noted as being a PSYKER on their datasheet. Psykers can manifest their otherworldly abilities and attempt to deny enemy sorceries. The powers a psyker knows, and the number of powers they can attempt to manifest or deny each Psychic phase, are detailed on their datasheet.

2. Make Psychic Test
A psyker can attempt to manifest a psychic power they know by taking a Psychic test. To do so, roll 2D6. If the total is equal to or greater than that power’s warp charge value, the power is successfully manifested.



Each and every psychic power has a line that states 'If manifested...' so yes there is 100% a WRITTEN reference to targeting and when it occurs.


"If manifested" means something different from "when manifested" and the two are not interchangeable.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/18 20:40:48


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





That is incorrect - it states 'if manifested' and we can read the rulebook to determine exactly when a power is manifested.

The psychic section states a power is manifested when you pass the psychic test - once it is manifested you then select a power per the power's own language. There is no unclear language - when casting doom it state 'if manifested choose an enemy unit...' - we know EXACTLY when a power is manifested, this is not unclear or ambiguous at all. The power tells you exactly when to choose its target - if manifested.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/18 20:45:13


 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




 Farseer_V2 wrote:
That is incorrect - it states 'if manifested' and we can read the rulebook to determine exactly when a power is manifested.

The psychic section states a power is manifested when you pass the psychic test - once it is manifested you then select a power per the power's own language.


No, I assure you "if" and "when" have two different meanings. It's simply a qualifier that states that if X happens, then Y happens.

Again, nothing is resolved until step 4. Step 4 is when you read the description and resolve the power. Targeting is a part of the description, therefore it gets applied when you resolve the description.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





That is incorrect - the power states VERBATIM - if manifested choose. The power is manifested when you pass the psychic test, that is what is written in the rulebook. There is no reason to suggest you would never reference the power prior to resolution because you must know the WC for step 2 of the phase.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/18 20:46:47


 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Striking Scorpion





WA, USA

Still, nowhere in the rules does it say to chop up the text within a psychic power card. Instead, the text within a card is implied to be the psychic power's "effect" which is to be applied in step 4, after testing and denying have occured.

Per your argument that targetting is written in, then there is no reason for step 4 to exist in the rules considering that no part of a psychic power is explicitly referred to as the psychic power's "effect." Because there is nothing referring to how to divide up the cards, it must be assumed that they take place all at once, especially since both smite and executioner clearly cannot be subdivided.

And if the card must be completed all in one go, it must take place either at the end of step 2 as you imply - entirely negating the need for step 4 - or in step 4, which is the more obvious choice.

~ 14,500+ Craftworlders ~ 1800 Frozen Stars Harlequins ~ 1250 Coterie of the Last Breath Corsairs ~

I also write for www.thewardolls.com
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




 Farseer_V2 wrote:
That is incorrect - the power states VERBATIM - if manifested choose. The power is manifested when you pass the psychic test, that is what is written in the rulebook. There is no reason to suggest you would never reference the power prior to resolution because you must know the WC for step 2 of the phase.


If that's the case, then it only applies to the Runes of Fate because they have "if manifested", and not the Runes of Battle because none of them say "if manifested" for the Eldar.

So for Runes of Fate you choose before, but for Runes of Battle you choose after.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/18 20:50:23


 
   
Made in gb
Irked Necron Immortal



UK, Midlands

Just follow the steps in the rule book through one at a time. They tell you exactly what to do. You will not be required to look up the targetting restrictions until step 4.

The problem people are having is that they are starting with the wording of the individual powers and trying to work backwards.


I really don't know how someone could read:

"If manifested, select a target within 24"..."

And;

"If manifested, the closest unit takes D3 mortal wounds..."

and then come to the conclusion that the timing is different.


This should never have ended up in YMDC, but the mods were right to move it.

   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





BlackSwanDelta wrote:
 Farseer_V2 wrote:
That is incorrect - the power states VERBATIM - if manifested choose. The power is manifested when you pass the psychic test, that is what is written in the rulebook. There is no reason to suggest you would never reference the power prior to resolution because you must know the WC for step 2 of the phase.


If that's the case, then it only applies to the Runes of Fate because they have "if manifested", and not the Runes of Battle because none of them say "if manifested" for the Eldar.

So for Runes of Fate you choose before, but for Runes of Battle you choose after.


Again this is incorrect - each and every rune of fate includes the language "If manifested'
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




 Farseer_V2 wrote:
BlackSwanDelta wrote:
 Farseer_V2 wrote:
That is incorrect - the power states VERBATIM - if manifested choose. The power is manifested when you pass the psychic test, that is what is written in the rulebook. There is no reason to suggest you would never reference the power prior to resolution because you must know the WC for step 2 of the phase.


If that's the case, then it only applies to the Runes of Fate because they have "if manifested", and not the Runes of Battle because none of them say "if manifested" for the Eldar.

So for Runes of Fate you choose before, but for Runes of Battle you choose after.


Again this is incorrect - each and every rune of fate includes the language "If manifested'


Conceal: Choose a friendly ASURYANI INFANTRY or ASURYANI
BIKER unit within 18" of the psyker – your opponent must
subtract 1 from all hit rolls for ranged weapons that target that
unit until your next Psychic phase.

Reveal: Choose an enemy unit within 18" of the psyker – it does
not gain any bonus to its saving throws for being in cover until
your next Psychic phase.

Straight out of the book. "If manifested" isn't there in any of the Runes of Battle, only in the Runes of Fate like Doom/Guide/etc.

EDIT: formatting

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/18 20:55:21


 
   
 
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