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Made in us
Lurking Gaunt




North Carolina

Spoletta wrote:
They could put a 15-18 point cost on the Monstrous Rending Claws, but apart from that i'm not seeing any candidates for a nerf.


Yeah, definitely a candidate for that. I'm surprised that survived the index/codex transition.
   
Made in us
Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos




There are a couple of problems with terrain.

First... the terrain rules are very poor and really do little. Especially to stop the alpha strike turn 1 charge crap thats so prevalent now.

Second - there are no official tables to roll terrain on. That means that if you are facing an alpha strike army and you want to put walls on the table that hinder them, you're likely going to have some stink eye and some arguments putting down any meaningful terrain since it "screws them over".

I agree that barren tables are garbage, but barren tables are what a lot of people play on. I bring a ton of terrain for the campaign days I run and while I stopped getting loads of crap for it years ago because they know its coming, my campaign days are but once a month and don't do anything for the competitive gamers or those playing pickup games where people get angry if terrain affects their games (which is why the 40k and aos rules have such non impactful terrain in the first place... players hate terrain impacting their game)
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut




AoS tournaments here use at least 10 elements on the board, usually many more, and if there aren't enough the players demand for more
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




1.). Genestealers don’t have fly.
2.). Screening Units.


I like that Genestealers are scary IF they get there. Assault-based Units/Armies should be scary if the get to you.
   
Made in ca
Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon





Tied and gagged in the back of your car

Unfortunately, not every army has access to good screening units. Let alone ones good (cheap) enough to fill out the space to deny a potential 53" charge.

Assault based armies being able to do serious damage once stuck in is not the problem, the problem is that games are built around grand, singular first turn strikes to the point that there's little reason to play beyond that, and that all competitively viable armies must be built for that first turn rush. It leads to boring games where whoever gets ahead on the first turn gets to go through the motions of rolling dice (and little else after the decisive blows have been made) while the other player mostly just packs up.
   
Made in us
Horrific Hive Tyrant






 Fafnir wrote:
Unfortunately, not every army has access to good screening units. Let alone ones good (cheap) enough to fill out the space to deny a potential 53" charge.

Assault based armies being able to do serious damage once stuck in is not the problem, the problem is that games are built around grand, singular first turn strikes to the point that there's little reason to play beyond that, and that all competitively viable armies must be built for that first turn rush. It leads to boring games where whoever gets ahead on the first turn gets to go through the motions of rolling dice (and little else after the decisive blows have been made) while the other player mostly just packs up.


Once again, the issue with the alpha strikes is not a problem with any particular unit or type of units. It's the turn structure. The issue is you hit with your entire army all at once with no recourse.

   
Made in ca
Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon





Tied and gagged in the back of your car

Well, it's a little bit more than that. The turn structure is the core of the problem, but then armies become developed around that in order to compete with other armies that already benefit hugely. Which leads to an arms race of alpha strike forces.
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut




Hmm, depends on how the meta evolves. The natural counter to turn 1 charge lists are durable lists.

The state of the meta right now is only dependent on the existence of poweful long range gunlines, without those the T1 charges wouldn't be competitive.
   
Made in us
Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord




Inside Yvraine

 Jidmah wrote:
 BlaxicanX wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
 Kap'n Krump wrote:
As an ork,

Orks don't get special rules that help us succeed, we get special rules that make us fail in funny ways so our opponent can laugh at us.
Just like the fluff.


Like the fluff where orks killed every single person in Hive Hades except Grimaldus?
"my greatest achievement as a faction in the 41st millennium is ALMOST taking one important Imperial planet!"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/02 20:13:37


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Falls Church, VA

 BlaxicanX wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
 BlaxicanX wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
 Kap'n Krump wrote:
As an ork,

Orks don't get special rules that help us succeed, we get special rules that make us fail in funny ways so our opponent can laugh at us.
Just like the fluff.


Like the fluff where orks killed every single person in Hive Hades except Grimaldus?
"my greatest achievement as a faction in the 41st millennium is ALMOST taking one important Imperial planet!"


*city.

it was one city.

almost. Once.

Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

2nd Concordian Independent Super Heavy Tank Armoured Regiment - 12,376 points
Order of the Luminous Beacon - 2087 points
Nevian Conclave of the Ordo Hereticus - 2002 points 
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Spoletta wrote:
Hmm, depends on how the meta evolves. The natural counter to turn 1 charge lists are durable lists.

The state of the meta right now is only dependent on the existence of poweful long range gunlines, without those the T1 charges wouldn't be competitive.


There are tons of counters to these kind of lists. Counter-deepstrike, infiltrating chaff, scout-moves, counter-charge, Ork boyz, and getting first turn. It is meant to counter the Gulliman parking lots and Guard gunlines, but then it lost to OP's index Ork army. It feels like a bit of a gimmick.
   
Made in ca
Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon





Tied and gagged in the back of your car

That's really more to do with mass numbers being the universal counter to everything in 8th.
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Fafnir wrote:
That's really more to do with mass numbers being the universal counter to everything in 8th.


Not at all. Think about your average GK army. Three stormravens with cargo deploy in the far corner, while the rest of the terminators deploy in reserves. That totally shuts down those kind of 1st turn charge shenanigans, but it is very hard pressed by your average Guard og Girlyman gunline. But the stealers counters the gunline. It is very easy to make a list that destroys a certain type of opponent but gets destroyed by everything else.
   
Made in gb
Imperial Admiral





Glasgow

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
This reminds me of a thread I once read about Starcraft (the first one & Brood War) where they took the little red lasers that a Battlecruiser fired, assumed they were traveling at the speed of light (reasonable, of course, they're lasers) and compared the time it took the little red blips to travel the length of a standing Marine. Therefore, you could deduce how tall a Star Craft Marine was. I think it was like, orders of magnitude taller than the tallest building on earth today.

The reasonable assumption would be that they are not lasers since they don't look or act like lasers.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/02 23:00:08


 
   
Made in ca
Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon





Tied and gagged in the back of your car

pismakron wrote:
 Fafnir wrote:
That's really more to do with mass numbers being the universal counter to everything in 8th.


Not at all. Think about your average GK army. Three stormravens with cargo deploy in the far corner, while the rest of the terminators deploy in reserves. That totally shuts down those kind of 1st turn charge shenanigans, but it is very hard pressed by your average Guard og Girlyman gunline. But the stealers counters the gunline. It is very easy to make a list that destroys a certain type of opponent but gets destroyed by everything else.


That's a terrible idea. 3 Stormravens and 15-20 paladins do not have the firepower to deal with 300 Boyz. Not to mention that sinking 750+ points into flyers is just asking to get tabled. Especially when you start with everything else off the table. Grey Knights are already terrible to begin with, they don't need to be giving away further handicaps.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/02 22:07:19


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Fafnir wrote:
pismakron wrote:
 Fafnir wrote:
That's really more to do with mass numbers being the universal counter to everything in 8th.


Not at all. Think about your average GK army. Three stormravens with cargo deploy in the far corner, while the rest of the terminators deploy in reserves. That totally shuts down those kind of 1st turn charge shenanigans, but it is very hard pressed by your average Guard og Girlyman gunline. But the stealers counters the gunline. It is very easy to make a list that destroys a certain type of opponent but gets destroyed by everything else.


That's a terrible idea. 3 Stormravens and 15-20 paladins do not have the firepower to deal with 300 Boyz. Not to mention that sinking 750+ points into flyers is just asking to get tabled. Especially when you start with everything else off the table. Grey Knights are already terrible to begin with, they don't need to be giving away further handicaps.

Greyknights are only terrible because they stand no chance against a proper gun line. They do just fine against elite armies. Being able to fight against a proper gun line is something that any competitive army needs to be able to do.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Fafnir wrote:
pismakron wrote:
 Fafnir wrote:
That's really more to do with mass numbers being the universal counter to everything in 8th.


Not at all. Think about your average GK army. Three stormravens with cargo deploy in the far corner, while the rest of the terminators deploy in reserves. That totally shuts down those kind of 1st turn charge shenanigans, but it is very hard pressed by your average Guard og Girlyman gunline. But the stealers counters the gunline. It is very easy to make a list that destroys a certain type of opponent but gets destroyed by everything else.


That's a terrible idea. 3 Stormravens and 15-20 paladins do not have the firepower to deal with 300 Boyz. Not to mention that sinking 750+ points into flyers is just asking to get tabled. Especially when you start with everything else off the table. Grey Knights are already terrible to begin with, they don't need to be giving away further handicaps.


I am not saying that grey knights are good. I am saying that Grey knights are a low model elite army, that would wreck the Genestealer-alpha-strike gimmick. Genestealers are not great against stormravens, you know..

The same is true of the Bezerker + alpha legion troll build that are in vogue right now. It will win you some decisive victories, but it is not a TAC list and it has some very hard counters.
   
Made in us
Skillful Swordmaster





West Lafayette, IN

Unit1126PLL wrote:
 BlaxicanX wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
 BlaxicanX wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
 Kap'n Krump wrote:
As an ork,

Orks don't get special rules that help us succeed, we get special rules that make us fail in funny ways so our opponent can laugh at us.
Just like the fluff.


Like the fluff where orks killed every single person in Hive Hades except Grimaldus?
"my greatest achievement as a faction in the 41st millennium is ALMOST taking one important Imperial planet!"


*city.

it was one city.

almost. Once.


"Badlanding remains in Ork hands to this day". from every Rynn's World story ever. So they got ONE planet.

www.classichammer.com

For 4-6th WFB, 2-5th 40k, and similar timeframe gaming 
   
Made in ca
Heroic Senior Officer





Krieg! What a hole...

The Orks didnt take Hades Hive, they blasted it from orbit, you're thinking of Helsreach

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/03 06:45:33


Member of 40k Montreal There is only war in Montreal
Primarchs are a mistake
DKoK Blog:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/419263.page Have a look, I guarantee you will not see greyer armies, EVER! Now with at least 4 shades of grey

Savageconvoy wrote:
Snookie gives birth to Heavy Gun drone squad. Someone says they are overpowered. World ends.

 
   
Made in ca
Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon





Tied and gagged in the back of your car

pismakron wrote:
 Fafnir wrote:
pismakron wrote:
 Fafnir wrote:
That's really more to do with mass numbers being the universal counter to everything in 8th.


Not at all. Think about your average GK army. Three stormravens with cargo deploy in the far corner, while the rest of the terminators deploy in reserves. That totally shuts down those kind of 1st turn charge shenanigans, but it is very hard pressed by your average Guard og Girlyman gunline. But the stealers counters the gunline. It is very easy to make a list that destroys a certain type of opponent but gets destroyed by everything else.


That's a terrible idea. 3 Stormravens and 15-20 paladins do not have the firepower to deal with 300 Boyz. Not to mention that sinking 750+ points into flyers is just asking to get tabled. Especially when you start with everything else off the table. Grey Knights are already terrible to begin with, they don't need to be giving away further handicaps.


I am not saying that grey knights are good. I am saying that Grey knights are a low model elite army, that would wreck the Genestealer-alpha-strike gimmick. Genestealers are not great against stormravens, you know..

The same is true of the Bezerker + alpha legion troll build that are in vogue right now. It will win you some decisive victories, but it is not a TAC list and it has some very hard counters.


Except those Grey Knights have to come down by the end of their first turn or they automatically lose. And if they do, those Genestealers will just tear them to shreds. It takes two 12 point stealers to kill one 55 point Paladin (assuming Broodlord support, although the numbers aren't much worse without one). Even if you manage to string along the nids for 3 turns, which is the most you'll get before you have to put everything on the table, 3 Stormravens is not enough to clear out ~100 Genestealers. At which point they just eat you. Because that's what Stealers do against terminators.
   
Made in us
Horrific Hive Tyrant






Fafnir wrote:Well, it's a little bit more than that. The turn structure is the core of the problem, but then armies become developed around that in order to compete with other armies that already benefit hugely. Which leads to an arms race of alpha strike forces.


Players build their armies around that. If the units don't change at all but the turn structure does the alpha strike problem goes away entirely. Don't try to triage symptoms. Cure the disease.

   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut




Want a list that hard counter hordes?

DA with 12 aggressors. You can spend the 1600 remaining points in whatever you want, hordes are screwed with just those 400.
   
 
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