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 Galef wrote:

 Algelion wrote:

6 spears can't destroy a LR, I agree. But a land raider costs as much as 2 squads of 6 bikes. And those 12 bikes will do an average of 21.3 wounds to a LR, without any pshychic support or even autarch rerolls. Do you still think you need those +1s to hit and wound? Comparing units with different costs makes little sense, to be honest. 6 spears can't destroy a titan, but the number of spears equivalent in cost to a titan can, with a lot of damage to spare too (61 wounds on average to a warhound scout titan, and he has 35...)

Correct me if im wrong:
10 Shinihg spears + 2 Exarch = 20 attack str 6 + 6 attack str 8(reroll to wound)
20 attack on 3+ its 13 hits wound on 5+ its 4 wound, 6+ armor save / none. And its 8 wound suffered.
Exarch 6 attack 3+, 4 hit, 3 wound(including reroll), and one 6+ suсcess = 4 wounds
So the total is 12.

Did i miss something?
My calculation is blunt really but the result is far from 21.3

You only calculated the attacks from melee. What makes Spears so good is the 1-2 punch of their shooting THEN melee. Do the calculations including their shuricats and lance shot.

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Oy thx, Well in this case i agree.
Did he drop the via deep strike or all of them are moving in the field? Cos if bikes goes second they are in trouble.

Those bikes are decenlty durable, with a 4+ invulnerable save It's not the tankiest list around, but I'm not sure they can't take a round of fire. And they CERTAINLY put out more damage than any other list that I've ever seen...

In a list I tried (with proxies, I don't have 51 jetbikes...) I had 5 unis of 6 bikes and 2 of 9. Two of the smaller ones were in deepstrike, one of the big ones can use the stratagem to assault after advancing (so 22" movement), and one moves twice thanks to a warlock. All those reroll charges distances as well.

Teschio wrote:
Those bikes are decenlty durable, with a 4+ invulnerable save It's not the tankiest list around, but I'm not sure they can't take a round of fire. And they CERTAINLY put out more damage than any other list that I've ever seen...

In a list I tried (with proxies, I don't have 51 jetbikes...) I had 5 unis of 6 bikes and 2 of 9. Two of the smaller ones were in deepstrike, one of the big ones can use the stratagem to assault after advancing (so 22" movement), and one moves twice thanks to a warlock. All those reroll charges distances as well.

Sounds damn dangerous

Honestly. This is my type of army.

If the DE codex is trash and i cant play my Reavers i'll use them as SS's (I have 30+ Reavers ffs).

Currently Reavers are same cost as SS's, tho i see SS getting a 5pt increase, even then they are still worth it.

I’d play against it for fun but only once. There’s a player at my local GW who makes broken lists... needless to say he doesn’t get a lot of games in because no one wants to play with him.

usmcmidn wrote:
I’d play against it for fun but only once. There’s a player at my local GW who makes broken lists... needless to say he doesn’t get a lot of games in because no one wants to play with him.

I would NEVER play such a list in friendly games. But there are people that like to play competitive, including tournaments (I'm one of them), in such a context you play to win. If both players know in advance what kind of list will be played (competitive vs fluffy) I think both can have fun. If your gaming group is not competitive, using a list like this would be an insult. In mine, it's a challenge.

dmetzkayak wrote:
Just played against an Imperial Knight Army.

IK went first, no suprise, and shot down 11 bikes.
Bikes destroyed one knight and damaged another in retaliation. (all through shooting)

IK destroyed another 7 bikes on second turn.
Bikes destroyed 2 more knights and damaged the last

IK destroyed 3 bikes on the 3rd turn.
Bikes destroyed the last knight.

You must have been INCREDIBLY lucky that game – and I mean incredibly lucky to destroy 1 Knight and damage another turn 1. (I’d also say that the Knight player seriously miss-played turn deployment and turn 1.)

The way I see it, by shooting everything into the Knights while in range of the Autarch, you’d do an average of 28.168 wounds to a Knight (after losing 11 turn 1, and presuming all 8 Exarchs survive). That requires you to have 39 Jetbikes all within 6”’s of 1 Knight. Now, while this is possibly possible to do, with a 22” move, I’d have to say it’s incredibly unlikely to happen, as it will require you to completely surround the Knight.

Turn 2, I agree, you will completely wreck him if you only lost another 7 bikes and weren’t in combat, but, this is where I’d start to question the IK setup.

First off, you should never have been able to kill 1 Knight turn 1. With a 28” threat range, the only damage you should have been able to do is with the Shuriken Catapults and the Warlords Nova Lance, and charge with 1 unit if you used the Saim-Hann stratagem (which I’d then expect to be crippled as a result of overwatch and titanic feet attacks). Turn 2, should have seen the majority, if not all 4, Knights shooting and then charging the Spears. At this point, the game ends, with, in theory, another 11 Bikes dying to shooting and another 12-16 dying in combat. This leaves you with 9-13 Spears left on the table that cannot charge the Knights next turn (unless 1 squad uses the stratagem). Sure, with the Autarchs shooting and charging and the other Spears shooting, I’d expect a Knight to then be destroyed (if everything is clumped together), but then, the remaining 3 would murder the rest of your bikes, by falling back, shooting and charging again. If everything is spread out, then, I’d argue that your chances of killing 1 Knight are massively reduced.

At this point, objectives become and easy win for the Knights, as they can leave 1 of the 3 Ranger squads alive and claim everything they need.

Nothing 12 Mulaliths can't handle. Keep them all together (and out of 1st turn charge range). Advance forwards and vomit half a dozen mortal wounds on each unit. Half the army gone (and possibly a few more from moral, or a multi-charge if the option presents itself), the remnants will have one turn to cut the number if Mulaliths down significantly before they are near wiped out by another round of mortal wound fun.

Sure it's a silly spam army, but, you know, pots and kettles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

fresus wrote:

The +1 to go first is the worst rule they've come up with. +1 to the roll only gives you a 58% chance to win. But then with seize the initiative, you're only left with a 49% chance to go first. Finishing deploying first actually makes you less likely to go first..

Nope, check your maths there.

I win first turn roll 58% of the time, 48.3% you don't take.
You win 42% of the time, I take 8%.

So I go first 56.3% of the time (with +1 bonus).

Not massive but better than nothing.

kaptin_Blacksquigg wrote:
Nothing 12 Mulaliths can't handle. Keep them all together (and out of 1st turn charge range). Advance forwards and vomit half a dozen mortal wounds on each unit. Half the army gone (and possibly a few more from moral, or a multi-charge if the option presents itself), the remnants will have one turn to cut the number if Mulaliths down significantly before they are near wiped out by another round of mortal wound fun.

Sure it's a silly spam army, but, you know, pots and kettles.

Not massive but better than nothing.

Except this specific spam army actually is more than a gimmick. It has a scary amount of shooting, mobility, and melee power. So I wouldn't say other pots can comment on this kettle.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

kaptin_Blacksquigg wrote:
Nothing 12 Mulaliths can't handle. Keep them all together (and out of 1st turn charge range). Advance forwards and vomit half a dozen mortal wounds on each unit. Half the army gone (and possibly a few more from moral, or a multi-charge if the option presents itself), the remnants will have one turn to cut the number if Mulaliths down significantly before they are near wiped out by another round of mortal wound fun.

Sure it's a silly spam army, but, you know, pots and kettles.

Not massive but better than nothing.

Except this specific spam army actually is more than a gimmick. It has a scary amount of shooting, mobility, and melee power. So I wouldn't say other pots can comment on this kettle.

An effective gimmick, but gimmick none the less. The entire army's threat range is about 30" and while it isn't wafer thin, it's not exactly resilient either.

If I were to build a Spear heavy army, it wouldn't be all Spears. I'd likely include 2-3 Autarch Skyrunners with Reaper launchers and probably a Flyer detachment with 2 Hemlocks and a CHE.
That would fill the long range gaps. I'd likely also take a Battalion with Rangers for the CPs. Than fill the rest of the list with Spears

Suddenly the list isn't as much of a gimmick.

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kaptin_Blacksquigg wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

kaptin_Blacksquigg wrote:
Nothing 12 Mulaliths can't handle. Keep them all together (and out of 1st turn charge range). Advance forwards and vomit half a dozen mortal wounds on each unit. Half the army gone (and possibly a few more from moral, or a multi-charge if the option presents itself), the remnants will have one turn to cut the number if Mulaliths down significantly before they are near wiped out by another round of mortal wound fun.

Sure it's a silly spam army, but, you know, pots and kettles.

Not massive but better than nothing.

Except this specific spam army actually is more than a gimmick. It has a scary amount of shooting, mobility, and melee power. So I wouldn't say other pots can comment on this kettle.

An effective gimmick, but gimmick none the less. The entire army's threat range is about 30" and while it isn't wafer thin, it's not exactly resilient either.

The whole army has a 4++ against shooting. Stopping 50% of incoming firepower is pretty darn resilient.

 Galef wrote:
If I were to build a Spear heavy army, it wouldn't be all Spears. I'd likely include 2-3 Autarch Skyrunners with Reaper launchers and probably a Flyer detachment with 2 Hemlocks and a CHE.
That would fill the long range gaps. I'd likely also take a Battalion with Rangers for the CPs. Than fill the rest of the list with Spears

Suddenly the list isn't as much of a gimmick.

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I agree on the battalion, not on the flyers. 2 autarchs skyrunners, a warlock skyrunner (absolutely needed, imagine what Quicken does to 9 Shining Spears), 3 units of rangers, 48 bikes (I prefer 2 units of 9 and 5 of 6, I'd also make the battalion Alaitoc and the outrider Saim-Hann)

I've actually tried Quicken with Spears. It sucks when it fails and you have positioned too close to enemy units (that you planned on flying over, yet are too far away to charge) that just charges you next turn.
I'd actually just take a Spiritseer with Faolchu's Wing. Cheaper and can't die from a single perils. I'd also take a Spiritseer with Protect to make a large unit of Spears become flying Storm Shield Terminators.

And I'm not sure why you wouldn't that the Flyers. As far as I am concerned, 2 hemlocks + 1 CHE is a MUST-take for every list I make, no matter what else is in the list.
Jinx can make a Shuricat volley all the more painfull and Hemlocks are great at removing troublesome enemy characters that could Heroic Intervention or provide some resilience to units that the Spears want to engage.

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 Galef wrote:
I've actually tried Quicken with Spears. It sucks when it fails and you have positioned too close to enemy units (that you planned on flying over, yet are too far away to charge) that just charges you next turn.
I'd actually just take a Spiritseer with Faolchu's Wing. Cheaper and can't die from a single perils. I'd also take a Spiritseer with Protect to make a large unit of Spears become flying Storm Shield Terminators.

And I'm not sure why you wouldn't that the Flyers. As far as I am concerned, 2 hemlocks + 1 CHE is a MUST-take for every list I make, no matter what else is in the list.
Jinx can make a Shuricat volley all the more painfull and Hemlocks are great at removing troublesome enemy characters that could Heroic Intervention or provide some resilience to units that the Spears want to engage.

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The winged spiritseer is not a bad idea at all, although he is quite a bit slower than the bikes. As for the flyers, they would be great if they didn't cost as much as 18 bikes, which can deal A LOT more damage. This list is not based on resilience, but on speed and more importantly DAMAGE. I don't believe there's any other list that can do so much damage. I think you win by doing as much damage as you can in the first couple of turns, those 3 flyers are not worth 18 bikes in this specific list (in others, with different gameplans, they might be).

Nah, an Unbound 111 Meiotic Spores 2k list is the most damage in 1 turn, its something like 250 Mortal wounds if the Tyranid player goes 1st.

So.. i mean this list looks like nothing now.

Teschio wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I've actually tried Quicken with Spears. It sucks when it fails and you have positioned too close to enemy units (that you planned on flying over, yet are too far away to charge) that just charges you next turn.
I'd actually just take a Spiritseer with Faolchu's Wing. Cheaper and can't die from a single perils. I'd also take a Spiritseer with Protect to make a large unit of Spears become flying Storm Shield Terminators.

And I'm not sure why you wouldn't that the Flyers. As far as I am concerned, 2 hemlocks + 1 CHE is a MUST-take for every list I make, no matter what else is in the list.
Jinx can make a Shuricat volley all the more painfull and Hemlocks are great at removing troublesome enemy characters that could Heroic Intervention or provide some resilience to units that the Spears want to engage.

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The winged spiritseer is not a bad idea at all, although he is quite a bit slower than the bikes. As for the flyers, they would be great if they didn't cost as much as 18 bikes, which can deal A LOT more damage. This list is not based on resilience, but on speed and more importantly DAMAGE. I don't believe there's any other list that can do so much damage. I think you win by doing as much damage as you can in the first couple of turns, those 3 flyers are not worth 18 bikes in this specific list (in others, with different gameplans, they might be).

From my experience with Spears, I found that Quicken is helpful, but not the most important power to use alongside them.

For me, I’d say my tier list is – Doom/Empower, Protect, Quicken, Conceal.

The -4 AP, 2 damage spears are fantastic, but, they do often struggle when up against tanks and masses of t7 stuff. A unit of 9 can easily tie up 3-4 tanks, but, at best I found them only doing a handful of wounds to each. Doom or Empower greatly increase their ability to deal with high toughness, high wound models.

Quicken simply lets you get into position from the webway, or to blast a large squad across the table turn 1 into the backline. If you have loads of units, you don’t really need to worry too much about it.