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nateprati wrote:
This thread has been suprisingly respectful of all sides and full of people throwing out well thought out solutions and obsticles.

Im actually really proud

I think a good word is "reasonable." Lots of talk of solutions or perspectives of, "This would be a reasonable solution to fit reality/lore (e.g., female guard), this seems silly in the lore (e.g., female SM)." And I think that's the key question - it's not necessarily what *anyone* would find sexist or discriminatory or whatever, or what some extremist faction would want, but what a reasonable person would think. Kudos, fam.

 Spinner wrote:

 Commissar Benny wrote:
You need only look at Marvel, Magic the Gathering, Hollywood, the new Star Wars movie to see where that road leads. Devastation, ruin, decay & billions in lost revenue everything that ideology touches.

Heaven forbid we see more women as major characters in our imaginary worlds. The cootie epidemics could wipe out entire franchises. The crows will pluck out our eyeballs! The sun will bleach our bones! And lo, the survivors will wander the shattered ruins of comic stores and convention halls, lamenting the fools of the past whose willfulness - nay, whose blind hubris wrought such apocalyptic insanity! Woe! Woe unto those who write major characters without testicles!

Disclaimer: I don't usually read comics.

From what little I've been hearing about Marvel, it is not opposition to female characters. It's the sickening abandonment of the mythological characteristics of the old style of comics that used to hold intellectual value, combined with an even more sickening preference in the SJW comics for perfect Mary Sues whose only opponents are men. 3rd wave Feminism is just as sexist against women as the old establishment used to be. It focuses on how men and women are two classes in conflict with eachother, like the old Proletariat vs Bourgeoisie model of Marxism.

 Spinner wrote:

 Commissar Benny wrote:
You need only look at Marvel, Magic the Gathering, Hollywood, the new Star Wars movie to see where that road leads. Devastation, ruin, decay & billions in lost revenue everything that ideology touches.

Heaven forbid we see more women as major characters in our imaginary worlds. The cootie epidemics could wipe out entire franchises. The crows will pluck out our eyeballs! The sun will bleach our bones! And lo, the survivors will wander the shattered ruins of comic stores and convention halls, lamenting the fools of the past whose willfulness - nay, whose blind hubris wrought such apocalyptic insanity! Woe! Woe unto those who write major characters without testicles!

There's really no reason not to have female Guard, or what have you. In fact, there's a thriving third-party market for it. You can throw out whatever buzzwords you like or put scare quotes around the word diversity or whatever the new hotness for these threads is, but there's nothing wrong with expanding the character roster beyond the five billion different super-grizzled Marines.

That's kind of a straw man. I have never once seen anyone say that there shouldn't be more female models, female guardsmen or major female characters. However, there's a big difference between doing that because it makes sense and carries the internal logic of the setting (which it does in 40k) and turning an IP into a mouthpiece for a certain brand of politics at the expense of everything else. I don't read comic books, but when I read a book or watch a movie I really don't care what the gender, ethnicity or BMI of the protagonist is, as long as they are a well-written character in a well-written story. Make them an obvious token character who only exists to parrot the words of a gender studies professor and I'm out.

 Spinner wrote:

 Commissar Benny wrote:
You need only look at Marvel, Magic the Gathering, Hollywood, the new Star Wars movie to see where that road leads. Devastation, ruin, decay & billions in lost revenue everything that ideology touches.

Heaven forbid we see more women as major characters in our imaginary worlds. The cootie epidemics could wipe out entire franchises. The crows will pluck out our eyeballs! The sun will bleach our bones! And lo, the survivors will wander the shattered ruins of comic stores and convention halls, lamenting the fools of the past whose willfulness - nay, whose blind hubris wrought such apocalyptic insanity! Woe! Woe unto those who write major characters without testicles!

There's really no reason not to have female Guard, or what have you. In fact, there's a thriving third-party market for it. You can throw out whatever buzzwords you like or put scare quotes around the word diversity or whatever the new hotness for these threads is, but there's nothing wrong with expanding the character roster beyond the five billion different super-grizzled Marines.

I like how you homed in on the one really stupid post to take a stand against. I've actually never heard anyone say they'd dislike female IG since this topic became a thing. In fact literally NO ONE complained about Lt. Mira (?) in Space Marine as far as I remember. Just like no one praised her either. I actually kind of feel bad for the writers because she was a really good character and no one acknowledges her.

The boob plate thing is barely a feminist problem, it's a "it looks fething stupid" problem. GW and similar companies designing with their dicks is the primary reason I'd be wholly turned off on a Sisters of Battle army even if the army was available in plastic.

I acknowledge Lt. Mira! She really should have gotten a promotion out of that campaign, but then the game producers collapsed, iirc.

To be honest I'm more pissed about those damned Romanticist than any other kind of ideology out there interfering with my hobbies.

By their fault is that I need to see a ham-fisted romantic subplot in EVERY DAMM movie, comic, book, videogame, etc... that only cheapens the character developement and MORE THAN HALF OF THE TIME DOESN'T EVEN MAKE ANY KIND OF SENSE.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Spinner wrote:

 Commissar Benny wrote:
You need only look at Marvel, Magic the Gathering, Hollywood, the new Star Wars movie to see where that road leads. Devastation, ruin, decay & billions in lost revenue everything that ideology touches.

Heaven forbid we see more women as major characters in our imaginary worlds. The cootie epidemics could wipe out entire franchises. The crows will pluck out our eyeballs! The sun will bleach our bones! And lo, the survivors will wander the shattered ruins of comic stores and convention halls, lamenting the fools of the past whose willfulness - nay, whose blind hubris wrought such apocalyptic insanity! Woe! Woe unto those who write major characters without testicles!

There's really no reason not to have female Guard, or what have you. In fact, there's a thriving third-party market for it. You can throw out whatever buzzwords you like or put scare quotes around the word diversity or whatever the new hotness for these threads is, but there's nothing wrong with expanding the character roster beyond the five billion different super-grizzled Marines.

I like how you homed in on the one really stupid post to take a stand against. I've actually never heard anyone say they'd dislike female IG since this topic became a thing. In fact literally NO ONE complained about Lt. Mira (?) in Space Marine as far as I remember. Just like no one praised her either. I actually kind of feel bad for the writers because she was a really good character and no one acknowledges her.

Not really trying to take a stand - this thread has come and gone over and over in various incarnations in different subforums (the board games subforum just had one die, I believe), and it usually goes the same way. I really just wanted to have a little fun with a particular post's brand of hyperbole before it all really got off the rails.

Agreed with you on Mira! It's a shame that we never really saw more of her. I liked the quiet 'we get gak done' working relationship she had with Titus. Give the two of them a regiment or two to work with and maybe a week, and they'd have that entire system cleared of orks, no sweat!

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Well, in Age of Sigmar, Neave Blacktalon is pretty badass. I'm converting her to be a female Lord Celestant to lead my skirmish force, as well as the lady from Shadespire.

Not that the fact lessens the need for some more cool female models from GW, though. Especially for 40k.

I wll note that in fairness we got a fair number of female characters in the wave of triumvirate boxes.

Trimvirate of the Imperium included Celestine (woman) Greyfax (Woman) Cawl (PROABLY a man but with the level of cybernetics on him for all we know he started life as a woman)
Trimvirate of the Ynnari: 1 Male, 1 Female 1.... heck if I know
Trimvirate of the Primarch: 3 dudes.

Let's remove the models who are part of an orginization that the fluff requires to be a gender for a moment or are previously eistablished characters (intreastingly eneugh these are nearly the same chars eaither way) This removes Gulliman, Celestine, Cypher, and Voldus from the mix.

We're left with, Greyfax (female), Cawl (Male), Yvraine (female) the Visreich (male) and the avatar whose gender I'm honestly not sure of


pretty even Mix I'd say

 Arachnofiend wrote:
The boob plate thing is barely a feminist problem, it's a "it looks fething stupid" problem. GW and similar companies designing with their dicks is the primary reason I'd be wholly turned off on a Sisters of Battle army even if the army was available in plastic.

This is the type of chest protector female fencers wear, because it's terribly uncomfortable for them not to be contoured:



Also, having worn my share of body armor alongside females wearing the same body armor, I can tell you that when it's on properly I find it really constricting on MY chest. I can only imagine how uncomfortable it is for them.

 Selym wrote:
I acknowledge Lt. Mira! She really should have gotten a promotion out of that campaign, but then the game producers collapsed, iirc.

I wish Forgeworld would acknowledge the Space Marine characters like the.did with Gabriel Angelos. I'd love a Lt. Mira model for my IG. I know Titus and...beard guy have head in one of the space marine kits. I think its the vanguard kit? But some official acknowledgment would be nice.

Edit: Close. It was the veteran squad.

 Galas wrote:
To be honest I'm more pissed about those damned Romanticist than any other kind of ideology out there interfering with my hobbies.

By their fault is that I need to see a ham-fisted romantic subplot in EVERY DAMM movie, comic, book, videogame, etc... that only cheapens the character developement and MORE THAN HALF OF THE TIME DOESN'T EVEN MAKE ANY KIND OF SENSE.

But... but... I need a flash of side-boob and some lovin' to keep me interested in the political drama/action movie blockbuster of the decade! A lot of media producers are so out of touch with what people actually enjoy that it's not even funny anymore. Eventually they'll get a hit though. Hopefully.

If the armor looked more like that it would probably look better. That's a far cry from the perfectly separated O's that Sisters of Battle wear.

 Sim-Life wrote:
Something I've always been curious about is hownexactly you make a model look female while keeping away from things that are considered sexist by some.

It varies with the model's species, of course, with male Eldar being somewhat androgynous, but like.

Aside from breasts there's also hip-waist-shoulder ratio and legs-torso ratio (and head size, hands and feet size...), which armour can dampen but won't fully remove. I often refer to the uncropped version of my avatar here, but instead I'll use another piece from my gallery (warning, huge image):



Most will probably assume male at first because media has conditioned us to assume that anything in full armour without a skintight breastplate and/or exposed skin must be male, but if you place those assumptions aside I think the above would make a very good basis for a female model (especially if FW does it rather than GW and their play-dough sculpting). It's about as perfect a balance as I can think of between stylised fantasy elements, reasonable design and hints to the wearer's sex.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
If the armor looked more like that it would probably look better. That's a far cry from the perfectly separated O's that Sisters of Battle wear.

I was gonna say how I think GW should redo sisters of battle, with a more less obvious boob plate to normal sisters etc... and more ornamental ones for high ranking sisters... but who cares? Obviously GW don't. LOL


EDIT: Ashiyara let me say that I love the design of your character. I'll add my grain of sand with a picture of my roleplaying character too. She unlike yours have boob plate (Her design is obviously based in the sisters of battle), but I think is more in the realm of "admisible boob plate for a faction based in religious over-ornamentation". The drawn was done by a female friend of mine, and to be honest I didn't even said her to make a boob plate (Damm the resolution, I can't make it look big )

 Arachnofiend wrote:
If the armor looked more like that it would probably look better. That's a far cry from the perfectly separated O's that Sisters of Battle wear.

Yeah, but this is 40k. Self-flagellation and uncomfortable armour is the only thing keeping Slaanesh at bay.

I kind of appreciate the baroque sensibilities of the corset armor, because I think it fits aesthetically with the theme of SoB, but I wouldn't cry if it toned down a bit.

 Selym wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
If the armor looked more like that it would probably look better. That's a far cry from the perfectly separated O's that Sisters of Battle wear.

Yeah, but this is 40k. Self-flagellation and uncomfortable armour is the only thing keeping Slaanesh at bay.

When you put it that way it's surprising there aren't more Sisters that fall to Slaanesh. They keep Slaanesh away... by doing exactly the sort of things Slaanesh revels in? An obsession with self-inflicted pain is firmly within their domain.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
If the armor looked more like that it would probably look better. That's a far cry from the perfectly separated O's that Sisters of Battle wear.

Yeah, but this is 40k. Self-flagellation and uncomfortable armour is the only thing keeping Slaanesh at bay.

When you put it that way it's surprising there aren't more Sisters that fall to Slaanesh. They keep Slaanesh away... by doing exactly the sort of things Slaanesh revels in? An obsession with self-inflicted pain is firmly within their domain.

The day when Chaos maintains logical integrity is the day I leave 40k

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
If the armor looked more like that it would probably look better. That's a far cry from the perfectly separated O's that Sisters of Battle wear.

Yeah, but this is 40k. Self-flagellation and uncomfortable armour is the only thing keeping Slaanesh at bay.

When you put it that way it's surprising there aren't more Sisters that fall to Slaanesh. They keep Slaanesh away... by doing exactly the sort of things Slaanesh revels in? An obsession with self-inflicted pain is firmly within their domain.

They don't enjoy the pain though, thats the difference. They enjoy their faith in the Emperor however. And of course, who wouldn't? Unless you're a heretic? =_=

On the subject of Marvel their comics were declining in qialoty for years and I stopped reading before the SJW stuff became a thing. That said when I've read the odd comic it is VERY noticable.

To answer the OP about feminism and 40K - yes please. A more diverse range of models and a more diverse player base can only be good for 40K.

As for the so-called "Sargon of Akkad," the source of your current concerns - he is a cretin cashing in on male insecurity. I'd avoid listening to him as it risks turning you into a snivelling whiner afraid of women.

 Aesthete wrote:
To answer the OP about feminism and 40K - yes please. A more diverse range of models and a more diverse player base can only be good for 40K.

As for the so-called "Sargon of Akkad," the source of your current concerns - he is a cretin cashing in on male insecurity. I'd avoid listening to him as it risks turning you into a snivelling whiner afraid of women.

It's really not. I never entirely pay attention to Sargon, as I use his videos for keeping track of a few narratives and events. Doesn't mean I'm going to warm up the the SJW's though, they're full of snivelling whiners who are afraid of: opinions, counterarguments, facts, men, women, life, problems, and their own inadequacies. With a serious dose of collectivist ideologies.

So it begins...

 Galas wrote:
So it begins...

Well, we have proven Dakka can keep its cool for a while, soo..

The SJW thing goes for both the left and the right wings. If anyone wants to continue the discussion, I can make a new thread somewhere else.

If it's a choice between Sargon and Big Red, I have to say I'd take Sargon any day, even though they both have annoying voices. It's an easy litmus test for me - one of them would let you speak and provide your own opinions and arguments, the other wouldn't.

Fortunately that's not quite the level of decision we're forced to make in the case of 40k.

To continue this discussion about politics outside of 40k, go here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/749160.page#9796257

I'm on the side of taking issue with the lack of female models in 40k. It would be one thing if 40k were primarily a story, but its not. The universe largely exists to facilitate the battles on the tabletop and bring friends together to share a game they love. A lot of the love comes from the self expression we get when we field our armies and a lot of that appeal on those that aren't represented. I mean, a lot of us pick our chapter based on, "which badass white guy best represents me?"

Raising a daughter has certainly heightened my awareness of how true this is. In all the geeky things I enjoy, it just takes one female character for her to idolize to get her into it. Certainly no where have I seen this more than in Star Wars, where perhaps my favorite thing about Ep7 was the sheer number of little girls in Jedi robes the following Halloween. Equally interesting is how many red lightsabers I've had to buy for the birthdays of my daughters male friends.

In a game that prides itself on model customization and in particular making your own heroes, its simply ridiculous at this point to not throw a female head or two on those sprues. If a girl wants to be a badass space marine in power armor to help her envision herself blasting orks apart or hacking the limbs of space bugs.... awesome, that's more people to play with.

I get the lore argument, but frankly, lore in every medium needs a refresh every decade or three anyway. The game can't sit forever in 80's sensibilities and has really needed to advance for years now. There's just no reason to make a sandbox universe in which women can't be the heroes too.

On the plus side, it wasn't the topic that caused the real issue, but the (admittedly scumbbaggy) source.

 LunarSol wrote:


I get the lore argument, but frankly, lore in every medium needs a refresh every decade or three anyway. The game can't sit forever in 80's sensibilities and has really needed to advance for years now. There's just no reason to make a sandbox universe in which women can't be the heroes too.

I disagree with this logic. 40k prides itself, or used to anyways, on bringing together a particular blend of tropes, media backgrounds, and mythological characteristics that made 40k well... 40k. Having a bit of a refresh once in a while can be good, but taking a swing at the longstanding logics of the universe is needlessly destructive. Really, it would be better to let it die a hero than have it live to become a (possible) abomination.

EDIT:
Not to say that I oppose female leads. Just the poorly done ones. The ones done for the sake of "it's 2018 guise, we need progress!"

 Aesthete wrote:
To answer the OP about feminism and 40K - yes please. A more diverse range of models and a more diverse player base can only be good for 40K.

As for the so-called "Sargon of Akkad," the source of your current concerns - he is a cretin cashing in on male insecurity. I'd avoid listening to him as it risks turning you into a snivelling whiner afraid of women.

Pro tip: insulting people who have a different opinion to you is a good way to undermine your argument and push people further to the other side.