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After a disastrous game last summer, I've been keeping my head out of 40k to concentrate on being at uni, so, as one might imagine, I have no idea where we're at with 40k. 8E's out, Guilliman is back to Mary Sue menace the foes of mankind, giga-marines are stomping around, Ynnead is here to [presumably kill] everything... But the thing I'm interested in today is the encroachment of "3rd wave" or "Tumblr" Feminism into 40k. In my personal opinion, this is a nihilistic postmodernist and neo-marxist ideology that, in regards to games and other media, is trying to push "diversity" as the only thing that matters. What drags me into this discussion is the Facebook page, Feminist 40k, which is critiqued by Sargon of Akkad on YouTube (here and here). For the uninitiated, this is going to be a long one.

What are your views in regards to this encroachment? Is it welcome, is it morally just, does it make sense to you, do you agree with the principles of 3rd wave feminism?

And, being that I have lost track of 40k since the release of 8E, is GW paying this sort of stuff any heed (in the way that Marvel and WotC have)?

We're still figuring out what works for diversity in the military so what happens in a game doesn't really bother me. Even if they retconned the story so that 50% of the marines are women I still wouldn't care as long as the models are as good as the ones currently.

I'm very much opposed to the movement. Having a diverse universe in general does not phase me (I would very much like to see female guardsmen - very fluffy and make a nice change to the current lineup), but the Feminist movement seeks diversity over lore and gameplay. Female marines, over emphasis on how important it is to be X ethnicity in a Y-man's world, etc.

My stance is simple.

An IP should, ideally, be subject only to the author's whims (or writer, or artist, or musician, etc.). I don't care if you're bigoted, racist, sexist, ___ist, or ___ist, an intellectual property or artistic creation is 100% yours. People who don't like it can jog on.

However, this will always clash with money-making, sponsorship, and large publicly controlled companies. That's the sad reality, and we see loads of properties butchered in pursuit of sales or making random people on the internet happy. The push for sales and political correctness that stems from this unfortunate side-effect almost invariably ruins an IP - at the very least it waters it down and makes it a bit crap. Even moreso when you start pandering to a concerned group and you hamfist a "fix" to appease potential buyers. So, as an end result I'm vehemently opposed to any IP bending to the will of critics. I'm also vehemently opposed to people who treat an IP (namely one which exists in entertainment or hobbies) as something which owes them something. That level of entitlement is pitiful.

Why is that I heard more people talking about how Feminism is wonna ruin 40k than actual feminists talking about anything 40k related?

And to be honest I don't think nihilistic means what you think it means.
And I say this as someone opposed to feminism and ideologies in general. Its funny because all ideologies are "modernist" but people keep calling 3rd wave feminism , post-modernist as if its means something when post-modernism is actually the intellectual movement that was created to fight the sXX ideologies that where born from modernist ways of thinking. So basically all ideologies: Comunism, Liberalism, Capitalism, Feminism, Fascism, etc...
But this is the 21th century everyone and nobody cares what words actually mean anymore!

 Selym wrote:
I'm very much opposed to the movement. Having a diverse universe in general does not phase me (I would very much like to see female guardsmen - very fluffy and make a nice change to the current lineup), but the Feminist movement seeks diversity over lore and gameplay. Female marines, over emphasis on how important it is to be X ethnicity in a Y-man's world, etc.

What exactly changes though, if there are more women? SoS and SoB already demonstrates that women can be as brutal as they need to be in this setting. There are no gameplay changes that I can conceive.

Is it a good idea to make female space marines? Probably not since SoS exist anyway and so the market is served in some way.

I'm not a proponent of forcing anything. I just don't see any change as a particular issue.

You need only look at Marvel, Magic the Gathering, Hollywood, the new Star Wars movie to see where that road leads. Devastation, ruin, decay & billions in lost revenue everything that ideology touches. If anyone thinks 40k lacks diversity, obviously they are ignoring the Sisters of Battle, Sisters of Silence, Salamanders, Tallarn, Eldar/Dark Eldar women, female Tau...the list is practically endless...

Meh, I lost all respect for Sargon when his supporters cheered sexual assault/rape at an event and he went with it. It seems like so many young, angry people are just looking for something to be upset about that they’ll target anything. Might as well have them be the new “old man yells at cloud.” They’re so anxious to look for something to be mad about, they’ll turn anything into a crying scene. Real snowflakes, lol.

Personally, I’d rather both sides keep their politicking out of 40k and let my BSDM-freak space elves go battle some fascist xenophobic humans or Egyptian space zombies.

Edit: as an aside, I always figured 40k was fairly progressive. We have and have had a mix of female and male models in a number of factions (especially the Eldar factions), the female-only human faction was unique and non-sexualized - and now there are two of them, there’s a mix of unique units that are both female and male (like assassins or inquisitors), there’s an asexual-ish faction by lore (Orks), everyone hates everyone equally, etc.

Games workshop produced Tau models with three slightly different looking heads, four new female named characters, revived Escher gangers, and a sisters of silence sprue.

So yeah I think you can conclude the feminists have swooped in and destroyed 40k. Burn your models.

I'm going to start by saying that I find fem40k extremely insulting, they are SJW extremists who refuse to listen to any point of view other than their own small group, anyone that has a dissenting opinion they brand a "bigot" "sexist" or "racist" which is ironic as that is quite a bigoted point of view.


That being said, can you ask for a more diverse 40k, the answer is a no, the models are grey, you paint them however you like, we have other ethnicities in the lore that are integral to the story, not side lined or anything, some of the best characters in the lore are woman (lotara sarrin, Elizabeth bequin etc.), that being said would I be opposed to more woman models, yes and no, yes if they are brought into the game in a symbiotic way, no if they are just dumped on us with no thought for the actual lore itself, like primaris, if they are going to do a all female army, it needs to make sense, like the sisters of battle, or the sisters of silence (30k), guard doesn't count in my mind as they really should already be there.

Regarding female space marines, they would be physically similar to men anyway due to all the growth hormones and extra muscle, so I don't really see the point of wanting them, they would look pretty much the same at the scale, if it's boob plate they want then it's a solid no from me, it makes sense with sisters as they WANT to be seen as woman (no men under arms in the ecclesiarchy) so accentuating the female form in the armour works, but boob plate marines doesn't make sense as they would have almost no boobs anyway due to muscle mass and again, hormones.

That's my take on it.

These discussions only go one way in nerd circles. Lock it and move on.

 Commissar Benny wrote:
You need only look at Marvel, Magic the Gathering, Hollywood, the new Star Wars movie to see where that road leads. Devastation, ruin, decay & billions in lost revenue everything that ideology touches. If anyone thinks 40k lacks diversity, obviously they are ignoring the Sisters of Battle, Sisters of Silence, Salamanders, Tallarn, Eldar/Dark Eldar women, female Tau...the list is practically endless...

Yeah we all know what a gigantic financial boondoggle the new star wars film has been.

Didn't make money on that crap, no sir. Why, I heard it'll only be the 8th most financially successful movie of all time! Just what they get for pandering to such a niche market as "women".

 Galas wrote:


And to be honest I don't think nihilistic means what you think it means

Nihilistic in the sense that it holds to the idea that there is no meaning, and nothing to aspire to (thus justifying the victim complex that typically shows up amongst 3rd wave feminists), and post-modernist in that it holds to the claims of post-modernist theory in sociology that since, a) different people hold different views over the same data, b) some of these views are irreconcilable, and c) some sets of irreconcilable views cannot be proven/disproven one way or another, that there is no objective reality and that, therefore, only one's subjective reality matters. Thus, if one person claims to be systemically oppressed by something, or is feeling offended by an off-hand remark that was not aimed at them, those are always legitimate claims.

A real-world example of this is when feminists argue that when a man is claimed to have raped a woman, that he does not deserve the methods of due process, and that claims of evidence in favour of the accusation are examples of disbelief and oppression of women.

 Selym wrote:
I'm very much opposed to the movement. Having a diverse universe in general does not phase me (I would very much like to see female guardsmen - very fluffy and make a nice change to the current lineup), but the Feminist movement seeks diversity over lore and gameplay. Female marines, over emphasis on how important it is to be X ethnicity in a Y-man's world, etc.

This. Third wave feminism is very much a "diversity for the sake of diversity at the expense of all else" movement that disregards art and freedom expression in favor of shoehorning in equality. I have no problem with boobplate or combat heels just like I have no problem with tortured, brainwashed penitants with whips for hands a military wing that murders millions to keep themselves a secret. But I'm a straight white man so my opinion can be safely disregarded.

I'm probably not in a great place to talk about this since I'm somewhat sleep deprived and my issues with third wave feminism are numerous.

Also since someone already played the "well what chamges if space marines were women" card; exactly. What changes? Nothing. So why do it?

I’ve got fairly mixed feelings about this movement. Bear in mind I’m a male feminist (hang me, I know) but I’m going to simply present my point of view. First off, no one can deny there are more male soldiers in 40k than female. That’s not at all to say there are no female soldiers in 40k, it’s just there’s a pretty large difference. Now, the thing I care about with scenarios like these the most is the lore remaining largely intact, which is why I have a problem with female space marines. There’s so much in the lore about them being male and the sons of the emprah, so I would be majorly pissed off to see them resort to creating female marines, not because women can’t be buff, powerful soldiers, but because it would alter the lore that has been in place for so long by a worrying degree. In my opinion the main draw 40k has over other war games is its immense amount of fluff, and completely destroying this well established formula would obviously cause a lot of friction. Now all I’ve said are negative things about this movement, but there are a few good things to it as well. We know females are underrepresented, and I definitely think gw should do something about this. Not something stupid like introducing female marines, and not releasing full boxes of female equivalents, but when releasing, I dunno, a faction that draws from civilians like guard or eldar, add in more female models. Not a 50/50 split to start because obviously that would annoy certain people immeasurably, but I think gw should design all those sexy new models, and include a few female models without boob plate or whatever, that look the same as the male ones barring faces. Call me crazy, but in the lore we’re all trying to protect, the universe is a diverse place, so maybe adding a little more diversity to things like poxwalkers or guard wouldn’t hurt as much as we all speculate it would. Thanks for reading
-Cat

Well this thread has an expiration date coming soon.....

People are afraid of this kind of co-opting and all that needs to be said is "the last jedi"

The thing is 40k cant be co-opted. It looks big to us but normies still think we are small and wierd. I also just finished at a university of art where the ideology in question is taken to extremes.40k is not marvel, starwars, majic or primetime tv. 40k is not mainstream enough to worry not to mention the vast majority of 40k hobbyists have been fans for decades. I would hope nu gw knows enough about thier own demograohic to realize 90% of its consumers are Hardened fans who dont even want thier merch assembled or painted and not elementary school kids buying plush stuffed animals and backpacks.



Now prepare yourself for the rest of this thread and its inevitable shutdown.

So 6 anti-feminist guys here (Counting myself, I'll be fair, but not like I started the thread). 1 feminist.

Can someone remind me who are the ones trying to push an agenda here?

I'm just fine with Space Marines staying the way they are to be true to the fluff and I value fluff continuity above all else, providing that model-wise we get some nice Imperial Guard that are women to give some nice visual diversity to that army, and we also get a good modernization of Sisters of Battle. I mean, with a good increase in Imperial Guard sculpts, that would be two of the three main Imperial Armies that are representative of women-at-arms (one solely made of them) for the Emperor, the other two being the Mechanicus which places very little emphasis even on the male gender, and Custodes which seem to fall in the same boat of Marines with gender but also have the Sisters of Silence tied closely to them.

Seriously, as a man who's played 40k for 20 years, I can think of a good chunk of some of my favorite 40k imagery and fluff that showcases some awesome women characters, from Sisters of Battle and Necromunda Escher artwork/models, to Black Library fluff which has great female roles (at least to me) like Elizabeth from Eisenhorn, to several important female Gaunt's Ghosts, to the Ciaphas Cain novels being edited/presented with commentary by a female Inquisitor who he respects, to another novel I remember being about a female Adeptus Arbites as the main character.

I remember at least one very important Remembrancer from the Heresy novels being a woman, to the main character in Mechanicum being arguably one of the most important people in the entire freaking Imperium, with her work with psykers and the Astronomican, as well as the link with the Dragon of Mars.

But maybe I am tempered in my gaming view as not only do I have a sizeable SoB army for 40k, but in Age of Sigmar I can have what will hopefully be an increasing number of cool female Stormcast to fulfill my need for badass women in cool armor, as well as the new Chaos Warqueen coming out to possibly lead a skirmish force I am planning.

 Galas wrote:
So 6 anti-feminist guys here (Counting myself, I'll be fair, but not like I started the thread). 1 feminist.

Can someone remind me who are the ones trying to push an agenda here?

In truth I’m not really that much of a feminist anymore I just put that in to represent the fact that what I was about to say was a different opinion to that of everyone else. Feminism has kinda devolved over the recent years, which almost makes me sad.

For me, anti-feminist are just like Anti-fa. They can't really live without their other half, and at the end of the day they are just bored people looking for a fight (As this thread shows). The only difference is physically vs verbally.
At this point I'm equally bored of both, feminist and anti-feminists.

 Galas wrote:
So 6 anti-feminist guys here (Counting myself, I'll be fair, but not like I started the thread). 1 feminist.

Can someone remind me who are the ones trying to push an agenda here?

If you have a wife or a daughter you should probably think about being a feminist. And probably separate what feminism is from what you read on the internet.

The Genestealer cult box is still 10 identical bald dudes.

The kairic acolyte box (a kit that only has variations in weapons and masked heads) is 20 identical bald dudes.

Poxwalkers (a unit representing random rabble mutated from imperial populace) is a sprue of 10 bald (unless you count horns) dudes.

The only kit in the last 5 years GW has released where "female" is not specifically an attribute of the kit rather than just some of the models in the kit was Harlequins, and it is worth noting that in all Harlequin kits, female models are entirely optional. There are enough male torsos that if you feel threatened by tiny plastic breasts you can avoid them.

Y'all are jumping at shadows here.

 Cat_astrophe wrote:
Bear in mind I’m a male feminist.

That always makes be what to ask which kind of Feminism you subscribe to. Had I been around for the earlier feminist movements, I'd have been a male feminist, too.

 Cat_astrophe wrote:
We know females are underrepresented, and I definitely think gw should do something about this.

In terms of model lineup, I'd be very pleased with an obviously-female Eldar Farseer model, especially as my Farseer is fluffed as female (based in part on the Farseers of DoW). Female guards I think are only not done because it would require redesigning every IG model from scratch so that the facial and hip-shoulder proportions match up properly, but I would like to see that happen. Issues for me come when, as you pointed out, the actions start conflicting with lore, or cause the company to go full SJW.

Also reminds me of the other "female representation" issues. It's a longstanding tenet of Feminism that everyone is equal (though, this part is not often adhered to), therefore everyone should get equal results. For example, if the UK population is 51% female and 49% male, then the company called GW should have a staff that is 51% female. And this even extends to fanbases, where it has become an aspiration of 3rd wave Feminism (and is the objective of Feminist 40k) to make fanbases become 51% female. The argument goes that equality = everyone is the same, so therefore people are only deterred by representational capacity in a fandom. It is not that miniature wargaming is just more appealing to males on averave, no, it is that women are not represented enough in the lore/models.

 Galas wrote:
So 6 anti-feminist guys here (Counting myself). 1 feminist.

Can someone remind me who are the ones trying to push an agenda here?

Welp, thats me triggered. At what point did I say I was anti-feminist? I said I disliked third wave feminism. That is to say feminism that focuses on women in pop culture and not on any actual issues and is mostly about being perpetually angry but not actual offering solutions.

Feminism to me is fighting against the anti-abortion laws in Ireland or trying to make people aware of the issues like female circumcison happening in Britain or the atrocities women go through in Africa, the middle east and India. My view of femism is not about being vaugly angry at Trump and demanding more breasted persons in nerd films. Thats whining like a spoiled child.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
So 6 anti-feminist guys here (Counting myself, I'll be fair, but not like I started the thread). 1 feminist.

Can someone remind me who are the ones trying to push an agenda here?

If you have a wife or a daughter you should probably think about being a feminist. And probably separate what feminism is from what you read on the internet.

This. The internet never ceases to confuse me - I am Swedish which means I am literally Stalin, and I am feminist which means I think all men must die.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Refer to my sig for my thoughts on feminism.

 Selym wrote:
It is not that miniature wargaming is just more appealing to males on averave, no, it is that women are not represented enough in the lore/models.

Chicken and egg. We tell girls that dolls are proper toys and that legos and science and other things are not feminine. Maybe if we stopped forcing them down a path (boys, too) then they'd more freely explore their interests without stigma?

Well, in Age of Sigmar, Neave Blacktalon is pretty badass. I'm converting her to be a female Lord Celestant to lead my skirmish force, as well as the lady from Shadespire.

Not that the fact lessens the need for some more cool female models from GW, though. Especially for 40k.

I am eager to see if I can get my daughter interested in gaming as she's 10x more interested in my models than my son, but alas, that's many years off.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
So 6 anti-feminist guys here (Counting myself, I'll be fair, but not like I started the thread). 1 feminist.

Can someone remind me who are the ones trying to push an agenda here?

If you have a wife or a daughter you should probably think about being a feminist. And probably separate what feminism is from what you read on the internet.

I don't follow any ideology, and I disagree with the core principles that feminism uses to build their narrative. That doesn't mean I don't agree with some of their ideas and affirmations. And that doesn't mean that I agree with the ideas and ideology of anti-feminists.

 Galas wrote:
For me, anti-feminist are just like Anti-fa. They can't really live without their other half, and at the end of the day they are just bored people looking for a fight (As this thread shows). The only difference is physically vs verbally.
At this point I'm equally bored of both, feminist and anti-feminists.

I'm not sure where you are picking up on a need for a fight. Outside of 40k the movement is imo waaay more dangerous than ruining a fanbase. I would even go so far as to propose that it is an existential threat. But that line of discussion is a guaranteed auto-derailer, so I will leave it there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
So 6 anti-feminist guys here (Counting myself, I'll be fair, but not like I started the thread). 1 feminist.

Can someone remind me who are the ones trying to push an agenda here?

If you have a wife or a daughter you should probably think about being a feminist. And probably separate what feminism is from what you read on the internet.

There is not just one kind of Feminism. The post-modernist and neo-marxist Feminism that is currently taking over the Canadian legal and educational systems is not the "womens' suffrage" and "equal pay for equal work" movements of old.

 Ashiraya wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
So 6 anti-feminist guys here (Counting myself, I'll be fair, but not like I started the thread). 1 feminist.

Can someone remind me who are the ones trying to push an agenda here?

If you have a wife or a daughter you should probably think about being a feminist. And probably separate what feminism is from what you read on the internet.

This. The internet never ceases to confuse me - I am Swedish which means I am literally Stalin, and I am feminist which means I think all men must die.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Refer to my sig for my thoughts on feminism.

You are a wow roleplayer and for that you have the greater of my respects. And a Blood Elf nonetheless. Belore be with you.