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 mmzero252 wrote:
Why not just make the easiest and most sensible change..remove her ability to effect Astra Millitarium. I feel like it's an idiotic ability in the first place and removing it will basically fix everyone's issues here. She'd then be limited to only being able to influence SoB units which is what many are suggesting.

I rarely see Celestine being used for his invul aura on Guard. She is mostly used as a very effective Distraction Carnifex.
Removing it would do nothing to limit her soup use.

Ordana wrote:

 mmzero252 wrote:
Why not just make the easiest and most sensible change..remove her ability to effect Astra Millitarium. I feel like it's an idiotic ability in the first place and removing it will basically fix everyone's issues here. She'd then be limited to only being able to influence SoB units which is what many are suggesting.

I rarely see Celestine being used for his invul aura on Guard. She is mostly used as a very effective Distraction Carnifex.
Removing it would do nothing to limit her soup use.

The fact that she gets a free auto AoF makes her so nasty in soup. If she didnt get that AoF unless she was in a SoB detachment at least she would come with a bit of SoB tax and be less appealing to a Soup list.

 dracpanzer wrote:
The fact that she gets a free auto AoF makes her so nasty in soup

It's not, it's the core faith rules being fully effective with a single unit and then being watered down as you add more sisters.

The auto-faith itself only exists (IMO) as a half-assed work around to SoB characters not being able to keep up with their own units. All it does in soups is mean that Celestine doesn't need to make a 2+ roll each turn.

It is the act of faith in general in soup that makes her so good. It amounts to essentially having 1-3 extra CP every turn. Even on a 2+ it would be good. You are right about AOF not scaling well.

A.T. wrote:

 dracpanzer wrote:
The fact that she gets a free auto AoF makes her so nasty in soup

It's not, it's the core faith rules being fully effective with a single unit and then being watered down as you add more sisters.

The auto-faith itself only exists (IMO) as a half-assed work around to SoB characters not being able to keep up with their own units. All it does in soups is mean that Celestine doesn't need to make a 2+ roll each turn.

Yeah, she gets an AoF the player doesn't have to pay a tax for. Did we just say the same thing?

I disagree about AoF being a work around but seriously think that if Celestine had to be in a Sororitas detachment that included actual Sisters units other than herself or her Geminae to get any AoF at all it would reduce her effectiveness for soup lists. Fixing the way AoF scale for SoB lists is another story all together.

Maybe there should be no 2+ global AoF but the Simulacrum should work on a 2+ or automatically?

I would be perfectly fine with SoB getting a better scaling version of their core mechanic. Celestine and the one free are basically the only real ways to use it. I didn't realize people were taking her just for the AoF though. I figured the mass invuln save over a horde of cheap bodies was the main reason she was taken. Everyone seems to complain about mass guardsman and Guilliman in imperial soup.

But yes, if the AoF was only available in a SoB detachment I would be fine with it. I would rather have Celestine not get nerfed and hurt Sisters rather than everyone else get hurt for taking something extremely cheesy in already good armies.

 dracpanzer wrote:
Yeah, she gets an AoF the player doesn't have to pay a tax for. Did we just say the same thing?

I think we are agreeing on the same thing but coming at the rules from different angles. Faith could do with being 1/turn per sisters/ministorum detachment rather than 1/turn per army regardless.

In terms of it being a workaround to a larger issue - run foot sisters with a banner, repentia with a mistress, or seraphim with a hypothetical jump cannoness. In all cases the unit will fall apart the moment it uses 'hand of the emperor' - I suspect this came up in every playtest of Celestine and so they scribbled in her extra act of faith to chase after her screening unit rather than fixing the actual problem.

Then Imagifiers are pointless. But as a SOB player, i SO would take 3 Detachments instead of 2 ATM, a Canoness isnt a tax IMO.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Then Imagifiers are pointless.

They largely are IMO.
50% chance of faith per model means 80pts for 1 act - and where do you put it? They can't chase seraphim, can't scout with dominions, don't function inside or when disembarking from vehicles, fall behind on faith moves, don't work at all with exorcists or penitents, and you could buy a whole second squad of retributors for the same points.
About the best use i've seen for them is a coin-flip to send an extra squad of seraphim up the field turn 1.

I agree on the Canoness though. If she could take a jump-pack i'm sure you'd see less Celestines, in Sisters lists at least. There is something to be said for a good cheap HQ.

There is a Point with 3 Detachments that you can do with 2 Detachments and a Imagifier over a Canoness, your Heavy slots are full of Rets (4 units) and your 80 Doms on Foot, for a full horde list.
I've done LOTS of math/testing, i'm 100% sure a walking SoB list is the best list for them, it used 1 Imagifier (2 is good, but i didnt have the points), just the way the math works on, using it 2x per game its better than more bolter bodies.
If you are playing Batallion with large BSS squads, its also good, having moving them twice a game helps a lot (tho there is no point in BSS IMO, just take a 10man Dom squad instead)

There are situations that they are worth it for sure.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
There is a Point with 3 Detachments that you can do with 2 Detachments and a Imagifier over a Canoness, your Heavy slots are full of Rets (4 units) and your 80 Doms on Foot, for a full horde list.
I've done LOTS of math/testing, i'm 100% sure a walking SoB list is the best list for them, it used 1 Imagifier (2 is good, but i didnt have the points), just the way the math works on, using it 2x per game its better than more bolter bodies.
If you are playing Batallion with large BSS squads, its also good, having moving them twice a game helps a lot (tho there is no point in BSS IMO, just take a 10man Dom squad instead)

There are situations that they are worth it for sure.

Evidence seems to be contrary to your assessment that foot sisters is the best list. That said I'm not sure your math really holds up. I assume you are counting shooting some really good unit twice, that assumes a lot of variables to be true

1.) You get the act of faith on them prior to that unit dying
2.) You get the act of faith and have LOS to a good target
3.)You get the act of faith earlier in the game rather than later when it might be too late to make much difference


This is one of those situations where the math and the reality may very well not stack up.

ON imagifiers it is important to note that 2 is probably optimal. In general 1 will go off and you can CP re-roll the other. Right now sisters don't really have a lot else to use CP on.

Well, all the top lists i've seen were Foot Sisters that spammed Doms and Seraphim, Repressors are great, but not when alpha strikes weapons are 3D and 4D, a single Sister taking 3D isnt anything compare to a Repressor.

I've seen mostly repressor borne alpha strike lists, with screens, not those aren't pure sisters I guess but I just think mobility and durability is lacking otherwise. Besides repressors are cheap enough that you can field quite a few.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Well, all the top lists i've seen were Foot Sisters that spammed Doms and Seraphim, Repressors are great, but not when alpha strikes weapons are 3D and 4D, a single Sister taking 3D isnt anything compare to a Repressor.

The top sisters lists are mostly marines and guard :p (including the top 'sisters' LVO list this year)
Blood of Kittens is far from complete but it's top tournament lists are half and half - two players with repressor spam (albeit with the old cheap repressors and 2017 opponents), and the last player with a mixed marine/sisters infantry gunline

On topic - all four had Celestine, half (the non gunline lists) had gemini.

 mmzero252 wrote:
I would be perfectly fine with SoB getting a better scaling version of their core mechanic. Celestine and the one free are basically the only real ways to use it. I didn't realize people were taking her just for the AoF though. I figured the mass invuln save over a horde of cheap bodies was the main reason she was taken. Everyone seems to complain about mass guardsman and Guilliman in imperial soup.

But yes, if the AoF was only available in a SoB detachment I would be fine with it. I would rather have Celestine not get nerfed and hurt Sisters rather than everyone else get hurt for taking something extremely cheesy in already good armies.

Soup lists bring Celestine because she moves 28"+ charge on turn 1 so you will (almost) always get the T1 charge. She then does as much damage as she can, forcing the opponent to focus her down or you resurrect her bodyguard and go again. If you ignore her she can fight twice instead. When she dies she gets back up and has yet another go at it.
She is a beatstick. A Distraction Carnifex (big scary unit that draws attention while the rest of the army does its work).

Ordana wrote:

 mmzero252 wrote:
I would be perfectly fine with SoB getting a better scaling version of their core mechanic. Celestine and the one free are basically the only real ways to use it. I didn't realize people were taking her just for the AoF though. I figured the mass invuln save over a horde of cheap bodies was the main reason she was taken. Everyone seems to complain about mass guardsman and Guilliman in imperial soup.

But yes, if the AoF was only available in a SoB detachment I would be fine with it. I would rather have Celestine not get nerfed and hurt Sisters rather than everyone else get hurt for taking something extremely cheesy in already good armies.

Soup lists bring Celestine because she moves 28"+ charge on turn 1 so you will (almost) always get the T1 charge. She then does as much damage as she can, forcing the opponent to focus her down or you resurrect her bodyguard and go again. If you ignore her she can fight twice instead. When she dies she gets back up and has yet another go at it.
She is a beatstick. A Distraction Carnifex (big scary unit that draws attention while the rest of the army does its work).

Which is fine...in a Sisters list. Nobody else should be able to have her work half as well. The IG buffing invuln was just the first mistake GW put on her. Allowing her to function 100% the same while in Imperial soup is also stupid. She's the one big unique thing Sisters got and GW screwed it up.

A.T. wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Well, all the top lists i've seen were Foot Sisters that spammed Doms and Seraphim, Repressors are great, but not when alpha strikes weapons are 3D and 4D, a single Sister taking 3D isnt anything compare to a Repressor.

The top sisters lists are mostly marines and guard :p (including the top 'sisters' LVO list this year)
Blood of Kittens is far from complete but it's top tournament lists are half and half - two players with repressor spam (albeit with the old cheap repressors and 2017 opponents), and the last player with a mixed marine/sisters infantry gunline

On topic - all four had Celestine, half (the non gunline lists) had gemini.

LVO's was 900pts of SOBs, but other ones that also reach higher up has been dom spam instead of IG or BA smash units.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
LVO's was 900pts of SOBs, but other ones that also reach higher up has been dom spam instead of IG or BA smash units.

I haven't seen the other lists, though Mike Kiser (63rd place) was the retributor/space marine gunline player I mentioned in my previous post. The 35th place is a mystery to me.