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Reading through this thread, I'm a fan of modding acts of faith. They need a fix anyways as they don't scale well. The issue with them is definitely in soup, and less then with Celestine herself. Yes she's potentially faster then DE, and unit revives better then necrons. But it's one unit doing it, not an army. Within the context of her base army, she fits in fine. It's only when she's bro-fisting G-man and a skittles array of chapter masters that it starts becoming problematic.

Celestine is on par with a greater demon. Stat wise she compares to a KoS, though she hit harder. But she's also less durable then BT's, which hit just as hard as she does, even factoring her act of faith.

 vipoid wrote:
I have no clue what you're trying to say here.

I strongly suspect that you do.

But for what it's worth it's the 114pt character that moves twice on the first turn and averages a dozen unsaved wounds... against Mortarion. Plus 3d6 charges, negate overwatch, FnP, that kind of stuff. Quite a few LVO soup lists were running a pair of them.

Ushtarador wrote:
Celestine is so strong thanks to the combination of survivability and insane mobility. Two things that could be changed to tone it down would be to:

1) Remove the ability to revive a twin for free
2) Make her resurrect as close as possible to the spot where she died

I think Celestine is close to being balanced, these things would tone her down a little bit without removing things. It's very easy to overnerf her, this should be avoided.

Both is a big change - I made a mistake in a recent game and she took a wound first, so she resurrected in the same place as she had died - she was immediately gunned down again with the twins. She is only T3 and so volume of fire or a few plasma guns and she is gone.

If I had the choice, I would shove that Primarch into Apocalypse - along with Fliers and super-heavies - and be done with it.

But since we're stuck with him, my suggestion would be to increase his wounds. If he's going to be the size of a greater demon, then he shouldn't be able to hide behind guardsmen.

(And, if you're wondering, I'd make this part of the character rules. Basically, units with a Toughness value more than 1pt lower than a character can be discounted when determining whether that character is the closest unit to the shooter. So Girlyman can hide behind Rhinos or bikers, but not basic SMs or IG Infantry.)

As you say that's not the game we are playing. Both St C and RG are Imperial Greater Daemons both in the fluff and the game.

So St C would be fine hiding amongst all imperial troops?

Both is a big change - I made a mistake in a recent game and she took a wound first, so she resurrected in the same place as she had died - she was immediately gunned down again with the twins. She is only T3 and so volume of fire or a few plasma guns and she is gone.

I think that's fair though - if she charges ahead alone and gets gunned down while out of position, this should be punishable. Now you can suicide into a high-value target without any risks, I think that's not a good mechanic.

To compensate, she could resurrect at the end of the phase instead, so she couldn't be gunned down in a single phase.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Make acts of faith a part of sisters "chapter tactics" IMO and she is instantly fixed. The issue is now that people just splash her in detachments with other units and still get all her upside. If they had to take a full sisters detachment (not that sisters are bad) it would at least be a deterrent to just splashing her in.

Honestly outside of sister armies no one takes geminae they are bad because they limit where she can come back. So they don't really need a fix IMO.

She is fine at her cost, she just needs to be a little less attractive in Soup armies. Which removing acts of faith outside of a sisters detachment would accomplish just fine. If someone wants to bring a full detachment of sisteros for the benefit of taking her, I'm ok with that.

Uh what? Geminae are taken all the time, especially in competitive lists. I've never seen her without the girls at an event yet. Also they don't restrict where she's coming back at, because on the turn she goes down, they're also (temporarily) dead, unless you for some reason wanted to keep a geminae up instead of her.

Most top soup lists don't take them see Gonyo's NOVA list as an example. They may not be dead when she dies and then restrict her placement. It might be different now with the CA price change, but the Geminae to me see harder to fit in points wise for little benefit.

Breng77 wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Make acts of faith a part of sisters "chapter tactics" IMO and she is instantly fixed. The issue is now that people just splash her in detachments with other units and still get all her upside. If they had to take a full sisters detachment (not that sisters are bad) it would at least be a deterrent to just splashing her in.

Honestly outside of sister armies no one takes geminae they are bad because they limit where she can come back. So they don't really need a fix IMO.

She is fine at her cost, she just needs to be a little less attractive in Soup armies. Which removing acts of faith outside of a sisters detachment would accomplish just fine. If someone wants to bring a full detachment of sisteros for the benefit of taking her, I'm ok with that.

Uh what? Geminae are taken all the time, especially in competitive lists. I've never seen her without the girls at an event yet. Also they don't restrict where she's coming back at, because on the turn she goes down, they're also (temporarily) dead, unless you for some reason wanted to keep a geminae up instead of her.

Most top soup lists don't take them see Gonyo's NOVA list as an example. They may not be dead when she dies and then restrict her placement. It might be different now with the CA price change, but the Geminae to me see harder to fit in points wise for little benefit.

'a little different' post CA?
If you want actual meaningful data you need to go through LVO and find how many brought her alone vs with Gemini.
Talking about pre-CA is useless.

She is borderline awful in ITC champions missions and was present in no top lists she gives up a lot of secondary points. So no fix needed at all. It also suggests that good players never liked her with geminae at 250 points.

Her with geminae almost auto gives up max points on 3 different secondary missions.

Yeah, most of the celestine troubles were elegantly fixed with the Chapter Approved.

Right now, she's fine with Sister's players (myself included) because she's always been 250 with the Wonder Twins.

But you never see her in soup lists, certainly not as much as you used to. I'd like to see some data on her performance at LVO: the top ranking Sister's player who ran her (I don't know if any did? Or even if there were any Sororitas at LVO?) and the top ranking Soup list that included Celestine (again, if any?).

I never heard a peep out of her at LVO, and I think that's our first big data set since Chapter Approved. Not sure why she's still so hated.

In imperium soup she has been supplanted by the BA captain.

Breng77 wrote:
In imperium soup she has been supplanted by the BA captain.

Then the question becomes: Is Sororitas OP enough to warrant the nerf?

I say no, and I think you would as well, Breng. You seem fairly sensible.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
But you never see her in soup lists, certainly not as much as you used to. I'd like to see some data on her performance at LVO: the top ranking Sister's player who ran her (I don't know if any did? Or even if there were any Sororitas at LVO?) and the top ranking Soup list that included Celestine (again, if any?).

I've seen them listed as both 10th and 11th place - possibly due to someone pulling out and promoting the lists? (edit - to clarify - 10th OR 11th. Not two different players)

It was a Blood Angels list in terms of warlord, relics, stratagems, etc (Mephiston, two smash captains, scouts, and deep striking death company), with a bunch of mortar guardsmen to generate CPs and Celestine (no gemini) leading a boat load of seraphim.

Very similar to the other soups. Interesting to see the seraphim taking the spot of wolf captains, sanguinary guard, etc as the fast movers in this one.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
In imperium soup she has been supplanted by the BA captain.

Then the question becomes: Is Sororitas OP enough to warrant the nerf?

I say no, and I think you would as well, Breng. You seem fairly sensible.

Sisters have lots of very good stuff - just less likely to be seen on table due to lack of models - there might be more of an issue if they were more available.

not played them with PL instead of Pts -they might be brutal given all their options.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
In imperium soup she has been supplanted by the BA captain.

Then the question becomes: Is Sororitas OP enough to warrant the nerf?

I say no, and I think you would as well, Breng. You seem fairly sensible.

Sisters have lots of very good stuff - just less likely to be seen on table due to lack of models - there might be more of an issue if they were more available.

not played them with PL instead of Pts -they might be brutal given all their options.

I play a Sororitas brigade, and while it's not "optimized" (i.e. isn't a whole bunch of Outrider detachments), I feel it is fair but not totally broken.

The problem is they're good when they have a few units (e.g. soup) because Acts of Faith don't scale. Celestine's free AOF + 1 Army AOF for two units means every Sister's unit gets to act over and over again and "feels" OP, but if the same units were taken in a huge Sororitas list (like my brigade) with more than 18 units, it feels a lot less OP, I think.

And I have played them in PL and yes they are brutal, though that's evidence more for PL being bad than Sister's being OP, considering how expensive everything is in points costs (except, ironically, the basic models which are a good deal).

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
In imperium soup she has been supplanted by the BA captain.

Then the question becomes: Is Sororitas OP enough to warrant the nerf?

I say no, and I think you would as well, Breng. You seem fairly sensible.

I think she is fine as is, at her current cost there are many other characters that I think are equally good (or better)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The only nerf I can see is the one I suggested no acts of faith unless you are a pure sisters detachment. Because of its diminishing returns acts are stronger in soup right now then pure sisters.

 sfshilo wrote:
I play sisters, I feel awful when I play with her to be honest.

Imagifiers are pretty garbage, the saint outperforms them.
Cannonesses are decent, the saint outperforms them.
Serapham are garbage, the saint outperforms them.

I will say, without the twins she is not as all powerful as some are making her out to be. Personally I think she needs to use an act of faith to resurrect the twins and you would fix the issues people have with her.

Are you sure you play sisters? It doesn't sounds like you know how your army works.

The only good suggestion I've seen in this thread is remove her AoF unless she's part of a pure detachment. That would slow her down a lot and balance it out.

 deviantduck wrote:


The only good suggestion I've seen in this thread is remove her AoF unless she's part of a pure detachment. That would slow her down a lot and balance it out.

I'd be totally okay with this when there's a realistic ability to play her in a pure detachment.

 LunarSol wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:


The only good suggestion I've seen in this thread is remove her AoF unless she's part of a pure detachment. That would slow her down a lot and balance it out.

I'd be totally okay with this when there's a realistic ability to play her in a pure detachment.

Are you trying to imply there isn't?

We should probably let SoB players know their index is a figment of the imagination.

 LunarSol wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:


The only good suggestion I've seen in this thread is remove her AoF unless she's part of a pure detachment. That would slow her down a lot and balance it out.

I'd be totally okay with this when there's a realistic ability to play her in a pure detachment.

Not sure how to process that statement.

 deviantduck wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:


The only good suggestion I've seen in this thread is remove her AoF unless she's part of a pure detachment. That would slow her down a lot and balance it out.

I'd be totally okay with this when there's a realistic ability to play her in a pure detachment.

Not sure how to process that statement.

A good size BN of sisters is like $100 for 10 models, if you want to kit them out all correctly.

A BN of Guard is like $100 for the whole thing.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:


The only good suggestion I've seen in this thread is remove her AoF unless she's part of a pure detachment. That would slow her down a lot and balance it out.

I'd be totally okay with this when there's a realistic ability to play her in a pure detachment.

Not sure how to process that statement.

A good size BN of sisters is like $100 for 10 models, if you want to kit them out all correctly.

A BN of Guard is like $100 for the whole thing.

I see. I don't feel monetary cost has a place in rules/balance discussions. It's an expensive and frivolous hobby. That's understood.

 deviantduck wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:


The only good suggestion I've seen in this thread is remove her AoF unless she's part of a pure detachment. That would slow her down a lot and balance it out.

I'd be totally okay with this when there's a realistic ability to play her in a pure detachment.

Not sure how to process that statement.

A good size BN of sisters is like $100 for 10 models, if you want to kit them out all correctly.

A BN of Guard is like $100 for the whole thing.

I see. I don't feel monetary cost has a place in rules/balance discussions. It's an expensive and frivolous hobby. That's understood.

I agree, but the point is well taken. Force Celestine to be in a pure detachment and you force anyone that has her to sell the model or buy tons of models they don't want. Either way, unhappy people.

Essentially that. Yes, there are technically ways to get models that share her keyword but realistically the line is essentially unsupported. I wouldn't be behind soft deleting a significant chunk of her rules behind a line of webstore exclusive, woefully out of date metals, but I could support the change as part of revamping and revitalizing the model line.

The cost and difficulty of fielding her in a "pure detachment" is not a thing nor is it relevant. You can play her as is without acts of faith. If you don't find her worth her points as such then you don't take her. She would still get her revive, she just would not get to act twice a turn. IF you bought her just to abuse her rules I have no sympathy for you.

If you want her rules fielding her in a "pure" detachment is financially trivial.

Patrol detachment - Celestine + one battle sister squad I can find quite easily online 10 sisters for $58 after shipping on ebay (or 5 for 30). Done you pay a 55 point tax and get her rules. Or if you want more, buy some melta guns, and turn those 10 sisters into dominions, and buy the other 5. Do the same and run an outrider detachment (throw in some Rhinos if you want)

It isn't free, but it isn't breaking the bank either for most imperial players. Any other reasoning seems to me to be. She is OP right now, if you remove AOF she is no longer OP, and I only want to use her with no other sisters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You don't force anyone to do anything, and more than a CA points change, or FAQ rules change would otherwise.

There are third party SoB models that look fantastic.

Breng77 wrote:
If you want her rules fielding her in a "pure" detachment is financially trivial.

I don't really care about the cost. I care that GW doesn't really support sisters with models in any reasonable manner. It's just not an army that's in a state that players should be expected to buy into to properly play with a new model that's largely been sold as unassociated.

 deviantduck wrote:

 sfshilo wrote:
I play sisters, I feel awful when I play with her to be honest.

Imagifiers are pretty garbage, the saint outperforms them.
Cannonesses are decent, the saint outperforms them.
Serapham are garbage, the saint outperforms them.

I will say, without the twins she is not as all powerful as some are making her out to be. Personally I think she needs to use an act of faith to resurrect the twins and you would fix the issues people have with her.

Are you sure you play sisters? It doesn't sounds like you know how your army works.

The only good suggestion I've seen in this thread is remove her AoF unless she's part of a pure detachment. That would slow her down a lot and balance it out.

Its clear he doesnt play SOB lol and i agree about AOF only for SOB.

Another voice for limiting her bonus AoF to only when she is fielded in a Sisters detachment. Limit her bonus to soup armies and the problem goes away. Increase her cost and she'll go away from even SoB lists. What's the justification for that? Sisters dont deserve a glass cannon with dies to a whiff with T3?

Easiest way to balance Celestine is to glue a washer to the bottom of her base.

Honestly I haven't used the new Celestine, but like many characters I feel the biggest balancing factor would be to restrict their buffing to be specific to just their own army. No buffing Guard for Celestine, no letting Cawl repair every Imperium vehicle, ect. It'd cut down a lot of the problems that we're seeing at the moment.

Why not just make the easiest and most sensible change..remove her ability to effect Astra Millitarium. I feel like it's an idiotic ability in the first place and removing it will basically fix everyone's issues here. She'd then be limited to only being able to influence SoB units which is what many are suggesting.

I would be fine with this.