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I'll start straight out with "rule number 1". I know we can get impassioned about things and Celestine through no fault of her own can stir up strong feelings. So if you cant type something nice, dont type anything at all.

Also, personally speaking, i think Celestine is fine as she is at 200pts. Now when i say that, i mean Celestine by herself, no wonder twins. The wonder twins are a different issue altogether.

At the end of the day, Celestine on her own is a T3 model in terminator captain armour saves. Wounding her is not an issue. T3 knows to fear anything pointed at it, especially if that something involves negs to saves.
Despite this though, she has become a dreaded opponent with many claiming she cannot be dealt with sensibly for her points.

By herself i believe this attitude is off the mark as it is sullied by the wonder twins.
Is it then because she can resurrect? No. She has always been able to resurrect. In fact, 2 codexes ago, she could come vack multiple times in a game as well as being able to be S7 and have a 2++.

Is it the S7? It does make her strong, but its the weapon that is giving her the bonus. Its just a relic blade +1. Shes base S3. Put her against Jain Zar who disarms her, shes down to giving uncomfortable S3 caresses...yeah thats a cherry picked example, but its highlingting my point.

No one seems to have trouble coming up with ways to deal with THSS terminators. Yet the moment Celestine is around, people start losing their mind over this model with less toughness and worse saves.

Again this is putting me in the mind that Celestine, by herself, is perfectly fine.


Now we come to the wonder twins...this, is where the trickiness comes in.
Theyre here to stay. The models are there, GW has invested in them and theyre not going to be going anywhere anytime soon so we best just ignore the "get rid of them" camp. Personally i like them, its a cool unique thing.

"If Celestine is to be balanced", this is where i believe it lies.
Now we could up the points of the wonder twins. But thats only going to do so much. I concede, aside from the absense of the dreaded Instant Death rule that has plagued many a low T character for many an edition, the wonder twins alone up her survival dramtically- especially considering Celestine can bring one back.
Theyre tricky to point. They have worse stats in ws, bs, w and attack than a cannoness, but a better save, jump pack mobility and can come back. But just because they can come back doesnt mean it will.
Honestly i think theyre too tricky to point, although i think they could probably be another +10pts each.

I think the solution may reside in Celestines abilty to bring them back.
Im not saying get rid of it. But a little more elegance to it like:

At the start of Celestines movement phase, instead of moving, she may resurrect a fallen geminae...

That there i think would go a long way to addressing some of the grief. The way i see it, Celestine still can bring back a twin; sisters players can have a hero that doesnt get nerfed into trhe ground; and if a player does want to bring back the twin, theyre going to have to sacrifice a big chunk of Celestines mobility.

Charge Celestine and don't kill her? She'll hit you back 18 times before you fight again.

Shooting at Celestine, and you kill her? She'll deep strike anywhere she wants. Or you don't, and she heals.

Try to tarpit? She has fly, so no.

Don't deal with her? She will be absolutely tearing all over the board, ignoring terrain, smashing things with her incredibly strong melee weapon.

Deploy forward in your deployment zone? Be ready for a first turn charge if the controlling player wants.

She is undercosted, but I mean it's a drop of water in the bucket as far as imperium stuff goes.

Yeah thats all due to AoF. Only way to solve that is change AoF which would be punishing sisters for no reason. Or, remove her ability to use AoF.

Make her 50pts more expensive and cut her ability to resurrect herself and her buddies. Fixed.

 Blackie wrote:
Make her 50pts more expensive and cut her ability to resurrect herself and her buddies. Fixed.

So increase her points and cut her character defining trait. Good stuff.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Make her 50pts more expensive and cut her ability to resurrect herself and her buddies. Fixed.

So increase her points and cut her character defining trait. Good stuff.

Yes, she wouldn't be overpriced anyway and she'd also keep a lot of good abilities/strenght.

Resurrecting characters are a mistake, I also think guilliman shouldn't be able to come back if he dies.

The thing is though, resurrecting has been a trait Celestine has had since her inception (so like 15 years iirc).

Also there is no way is Celestine worth 250pts without the ability to resurrect.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
The thing is though, resurrecting has been a trait Celestine has had since her inception (so like 15 years iirc).

Also there is no way is Celestine worth 250pts without the ability to resurrect.

Agreed - she is T3! Also she does not automatically get to deep strike if she dies.

Maybe not keep rezzing the Geminae?

 Vector Strike wrote:
Maybe not keep rezzing the Geminae?

This would probably be acceptable, though personally I think reverting their price change would also be another option.

That said, most non-Sister lists just take her by herself, right? If so that wouldn't really help with the major reason people complain about her.

Points are an easy solution to balancing her without removing her cool rules. I'd probably say to up the cost of her geminae a bit, maybe to 35-40pts each?

Yeah the OP kind of completely ignores how ridiculous she becomes while using acts of faith along with all her other abilities like buffing nearby sisters and guard, and granting an extra AoF. And t3 is not a big downside this edition, especially not for a character.

She is still undercosted even with the CA price tag, being both nigh impossible to take down efficiently, and incredibly likely to put in some work and earn her keep. There is a reason why she is a common appearance in competitive imperial soup lists.

Make acts of faith a part of sisters "chapter tactics" IMO and she is instantly fixed. The issue is now that people just splash her in detachments with other units and still get all her upside. If they had to take a full sisters detachment (not that sisters are bad) it would at least be a deterrent to just splashing her in.

Honestly outside of sister armies no one takes geminae they are bad because they limit where she can come back. So they don't really need a fix IMO.

She is fine at her cost, she just needs to be a little less attractive in Soup armies. Which removing acts of faith outside of a sisters detachment would accomplish just fine. If someone wants to bring a full detachment of sisters for the benefit of taking her, I'm ok with that.

 DoomMouse wrote:
Points are an easy solution to balancing her without removing her cool rules. I'd probably say to up the cost of her geminae a bit, maybe to 35-40pts each?

Stack enough points onto her and she'll stop appearing in soups, replaced by another captain smash/distraction carnifex while the sisters lose their only practical combat HQ choice.


IMO the best way to 'fix' Celestine is to fix the sisters:
-Let characters inherit one faith/turn from another nearby unit. No more movement fragmentation means no more need for Celestines bonus faith act
-Healing tears can simply negate the 1 faith/turn limit on using 'spirit of the martyr', Combined with sensible way of scaling faith with points and/or a reworded martyrdom stratagem.
-Make character resurrection a stratagem, applying a CP cost rather than points cost to it and give Celestine a discount on it.
-Limit her aura to Sororitas units.


She is fast and you have to (usually) kill her twice. She is also squishy and will kill an average of 3 tactical marines on the charge, and lacking in mortal wound and hit penalties on defence and offence.
Great for harassing devastator squads and giving free consolidation moves to real combat units.

Breng77 wrote:
Make acts of faith a part of sisters "chapter tactics" IMO and she is instantly fixed. The issue is now that people just splash her in detachments with other units and still get all her upside. If they had to take a full sisters detachment (not that sisters are bad) it would at least be a deterrent to just splashing her in.

Honestly outside of sister armies no one takes geminae they are bad because they limit where she can come back. So they don't really need a fix IMO.

She is fine at her cost, she just needs to be a little less attractive in Soup armies. Which removing acts of faith outside of a sisters detachment would accomplish just fine. If someone wants to bring a full detachment of sisteros for the benefit of taking her, I'm ok with that.

Uh what? Geminae are taken all the time, especially in competitive lists. I've never seen her without the girls at an event yet. Also they don't restrict where she's coming back at, because on the turn she goes down, they're also (temporarily) dead, unless you for some reason wanted to keep a geminae up instead of her.

 Giantwalkingchair wrote:

Is it then because she can resurrect? No. She has always been able to resurrect. In fact, 2 codexes ago, she could come vack multiple times in a game as well as being able to be S7 and have a 2++.

I can't recall a single incarnation of Celestine who fits this description.

3rd edition: Her weapon was S5 and while she could potentially resurrect multiple times, the fact that she went into reserves each time and arrived by Deep Strike meant she was unlikely to contribute much if she died more than once. She also drained your faith points when she resurrected.

5th edition: She could resurrect any number of times per game, but her weapon just wounded stuff on 4s. It wasn't S7.

6th edition: She could resurrect only once and her weapon was S5.

7th edition (when she got new rules for herself and her new twins): She could resurrect once and was S5.

She has *never* been S7 until 8th edition.


Honestly, I think the problem is that GW turned her into a pseudo-lord-of-war. I think she should have been kept much closer to an ordinary Canoness in terms of both stats and cost. Hence, I'd look to make her:
- S5 (this has worked fine for her in the past and, with the new wounding table, it should still be fine for her)
- 5 wounds, 6 at the very most (she never had more wounds than an ordinary Canoness in the past, and I don't see why she needs that many now. I mean, there are vehicles that have fewer than 7 wounds)
- 4-5 attacks (Again, 6 attacks is just excessive)

In addition, I'd consider the following:
- Reduce the armour and/or invulnerable saves of her bodyguards to 3+ and 5++, respectively.
- Reduce Celestine's ability to resurrect them. Have Healing Tears just say that if she uses an Act of Faith to revive one, it comes back with full wounds (instead of just 1).
- Alternatively, make these guys stronger, but make them completely separate from Celestine. Instead, make them demi-HQs who can project her aura elsewhere or something.

Put simply, I really don't think she needs to be a stupidly-powerful killing-machine.

 vipoid wrote:


Put simply, I really don't think she needs to be a stupidly-powerful killing-machine.

Exactly this. This silly GW's obsession in turning 40k into herohammer is ruining the game IMHO.

 Blackie wrote:

 vipoid wrote:


Put simply, I really don't think she needs to be a stupidly-powerful killing-machine.

Exactly this. This silly GW's obsession in turning 40k into herohammer is ruining the game IMHO.

She is the equivalent of a Greater Daemon why would she not be that powerful? Its nice that we have something that not a Marine that is actually powerful imo


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Make acts of faith a part of sisters "chapter tactics" IMO and she is instantly fixed. The issue is now that people just splash her in detachments with other units and still get all her upside. If they had to take a full sisters detachment (not that sisters are bad) it would at least be a deterrent to just splashing her in.

Honestly outside of sister armies no one takes geminae they are bad because they limit where she can come back. So they don't really need a fix IMO.

She is fine at her cost, she just needs to be a little less attractive in Soup armies. Which removing acts of faith outside of a sisters detachment would accomplish just fine. If someone wants to bring a full detachment of sisteros for the benefit of taking her, I'm ok with that.

Uh what? Geminae are taken all the time, especially in competitive lists. I've never seen her without the girls at an event yet. Also they don't restrict where she's coming back at, because on the turn she goes down, they're also (temporarily) dead, unless you for some reason wanted to keep a geminae up instead of her.

if she takes a single wound before the twins do she has to take all the subsequent wounds.

 vipoid wrote:
She has *never* been S7 until 8th edition.

3rd through to 5th she (and any canoness toting a blessed weapon) were S7 with Hand of the Emperor. And very much a 'lord of war' - she cost more than Calgar back then.
The WD dex Celestine wounded on a flat 4+ and was half the cost.
Fall of Cadia Celestine was S5 with armourbane.

As for being a stupidly powerful killing machine - the ability to inflict an average of four wounds on the charge against a generic T4/4++ character is more than serviceable, but it's no better than any no-name schmuck captain with a thunderhammer would do.

Breng77 wrote:
Make acts of faith a part of sisters "chapter tactics" IMO and she is instantly fixed. The issue is now that people just splash her in detachments with other units and still get all her upside. If they had to take a full sisters detachment (not that sisters are bad) it would at least be a deterrent to just splashing her in.
...
She is fine at her cost, she just needs to be a little less attractive in Soup armies. Which removing acts of faith outside of a sisters detachment would accomplish just fine. If someone wants to bring a full detachment of sisters for the benefit of taking her, I'm ok with that.

I think this is the answer. She lifts my Sisters army from extremely challenging to play to reasonably competitive, but far from overpowered. Let her continue to be the boost Sisters players need while limiting the soup exploitation. For that matter, and for fluff reasons as much as gameplay, that should be the case with chapter masters and primarchs too.

Making AoF the SoB trait and only work when inside a pure detachment is an easy (partial) fix.

A.T. wrote:
3rd through to 5th she (and any canoness toting a blessed weapon) were S7 with Hand of the Emperor. And very much a 'lord of war' - she cost more than Calgar back then.

Why does it matter what strength she was with an act of faith? They were neither free nor automatic. She was S5 base, just as she should be S5 base now. If you want some extra oomph in combat, use an Act of Faith on her.

A.T. wrote:
The WD dex Celestine wounded on a flat 4+ and was half the cost.

Didn't I already said this?

A.T. wrote:

Fall of Cadia Celestine was S5 with armourbane.

So... S5 then?

A.T. wrote:
As for being a stupidly powerful killing machine - the ability to inflict an average of four wounds on the charge against a generic T4/4++ character is more than serviceable, but it's no better than any no-name schmuck captain with a thunderhammer would do.

Except that the Thunderhammer won't have 6 attacks that hit on 2s. He also won't have the option of moving twice. Or attacking twice. Nor does he revive on full wounds the first time he's killed, and then teleport anywhere on the table (and that's before we even get into her auto-reviving bodyguards).

It's not just the weapon - it's the platform its on. If Celestine was just a footslogging Canoness with 5 wounds, who couldn't revive, I doubt anyone would have an issue with her current combat ability.

The issue is that she's insanely good in combat on top of being insanely mobile and on top of being incredibly durable. Consider that DE are supposed to be a fast army, but nothing in their entire codex even comes close to St. Celestine. Likewise, Necrons' whole schtick is being durable and reiving, yet St. Celestine is more durable and better at reviving than every single character in their Index. She's just been turned into a complete Mary Sue.

If Celestine was just a S5 Canoness no one would take her either - especially at the pts cost you are suggesting.

How much does a "no-name schmuck captain with a thunderhammer and jump pack cost? Thunderhammer also is S8, does more damage with better AP.

I assume you are looking to adjust a certain Primarch in the same way

So S4, T4 and maybe a 2+ save, no boosts, no revive and no ignore wounds - oh and same pts cost?

 vipoid wrote:
Why does it matter what strength she was with an act of faith?

Because that's how the model was used. And because you are complaining about the current Celestine specifically citing her faith powers.

vipoid wrote:So... S5 then?

S5 armourbane. The latter probably the reason for her high strength now that vehicles have toughness values.

vipoid wrote:Except that the Thunderhammer won't have 6 attacks that hit on 2s. He also won't have the option of moving twice. Or attacking twice...

Firstly it can, given a few CPs.
Secondly she can't, at least not in the same turn.
Thirdly that's where the thunderhammer starts and Celestine ends. The captain ends another half dozen CPs up the road with his hammer through Mortarions head - hence the question of Celestines 'insane' close combat ability.

And that is in no way denying that she is fast and powerful but I think you are over-egging it a bit.

 Mr Morden wrote:
How much does a "no-name schmuck captain with a thunderhammer and jump pack cost?

114pts IIRC.

90% of the suggestions in this thread would kill any semblance of flavour or usability on Celestine. My gosh.
The only decent one is limiting acts of faith to SoB detachments.
And the one that said Celestine was used with both wonder-twins, thats just wrong. Pre-CA Celestine was used alone in soup lists, max 1 Geminae. It was the most efficient eay to use her. Only SoB players used both Geminae. What CA did was basically the most intelligent balance change of all of 8th. Making her 33% more expensive for most soup armies, from 150p to 200p, and 12% more expensive when used with one geminae.
I think you could make her geminae 35p each without a problem.

So you can have two smash captain hammers, with one ignoring overwatch and charge 3d6 for the cost of celestine+1geminae. I wonder what will have a higher damage output.

I'd suggest its the die and deep strike wherever she likes that makes her so valuable.
Make her ressurrect like Gulliman does. Doesn't make sense she dies and magically teleports anyway.

She goes down, she gets back up where she went down. Chances are right in a kill zone again.

Its the crazy bouncing around that makes her super good.

I play sisters, I feel awful when I play with her to be honest.

Imagifiers are pretty garbage, the saint outperforms them.
Cannonesses are decent, the saint outperforms them.
Serapham are garbage, the saint outperforms them.

I will say, without the twins she is not as all powerful as some are making her out to be. Personally I think she needs to use an act of faith to resurrect the twins and you would fix the issues people have with her.

A.T. wrote:
Because that's how the model was used. And because you are complaining about the current Celestine specifically citing her faith powers.

Except I cited her unmodified stats. Hence why I referred to her having 6 attacks, rather than 12.

A.T. wrote:
S5 armourbane. The latter probably the reason for her high strength now that vehicles have toughness values.

If that's the case then it seems like a really bad fix.

A.T. wrote:

Secondly she can't, at least not in the same turn.

I didn't say she could do any of that in the same turn. That's why I used the word 'or' as opposed to 'and'. It is literally what the word means.

A.T. wrote:
Thirdly that's where the thunderhammer starts and Celestine ends. The captain ends another half dozen CPs up the road with his hammer through Mortarions head

I have no clue what you're trying to say here.

 Mr Morden wrote:
If Celestine was just a S5 Canoness no one would take her either - especially at the pts cost you are suggesting.

I wasn't aware I had suggested a precise point cost for her.

All I said was that her power and cost should both be lowered.

 Mr Morden wrote:

How much does a "no-name schmuck captain with a thunderhammer and jump pack cost? Thunderhammer also is S8, does more damage with better AP.

And yet people aren't taking Captains with Thunderhammers and Jump Packs. They're taking Celestine.

 Mr Morden wrote:

I assume you are looking to adjust a certain Primarch in the same way

So S4, T4 and maybe a 2+ save, no boosts, no revive and no ignore wounds - oh and same pts cost?

If I had the choice, I would shove that Primarch into Apocalypse - along with Fliers and super-heavies - and be done with it.

But since we're stuck with him, my suggestion would be to increase his wounds. If he's going to be the size of a greater demon, then he shouldn't be able to hide behind guardsmen.

(And, if you're wondering, I'd make this part of the character rules. Basically, units with a Toughness value more than 1pt lower than a character can be discounted when determining whether that character is the closest unit to the shooter. So Girlyman can hide behind Rhinos or bikers, but not basic SMs or IG Infantry.)

 vipoid wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

How much does a "no-name schmuck captain with a thunderhammer and jump pack cost? Thunderhammer also is S8, does more damage with better AP.

And yet people aren't taking Captains with Thunderhammers and Jump Packs. They're taking Celestine.

Oh my sweet summer child. Havent you see basically every BA list in LVO? Captain Smasherfest has returned better than ever.

Celestine is so strong thanks to the combination of survivability and insane mobility. Two things that could be changed to tone it down would be to:

1) Remove the ability to revive a twin for free
2) Make her resurrect as close as possible to the spot where she died

I think Celestine is close to being balanced, these things would tone her down a little bit without removing things. It's very easy to overnerf her, this should be avoided.