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I guess my issue is more with D3 shots as a mechanic not the price point of a vindicator. Soul crushing when you roll 1 shot.

CP re-roll to the rescue

You could always spend a cp and reroll that dice. But yeah random shot mechanics are busted. Anywhere between 0 and 18 damage is mental.
Also S10 24 vrs S9 48 meh 3+for most things as T9 is rare. Both D6 damage just not enough extra for the loss of 24 range

Tech wrote:


So a russ demolisher with 3+ for 140? The IG pay 215 for that type of 3+ fire power (with an extra heavy bolter) with the help of a tank commander. Sure they get an order and regiment bonus, but not sure that is worth 75 points.

Right now it is 125 vs 170, BS4+ if both moved and 1 shot vs 2 shots. That is a 45 point difference that in my own personal opinion is solid for what you get from both tanks.

Fair enough you think it’d need to be more expensive with the 3+ and Grinding Advance, at least then it’d have a purpose instead of being a tough-ish tank that hits like a wet noodle.

kombatwombat wrote:

Tech wrote:


So a russ demolisher with 3+ for 140? The IG pay 215 for that type of 3+ fire power (with an extra heavy bolter) with the help of a tank commander. Sure they get an order and regiment bonus, but not sure that is worth 75 points.

Right now it is 125 vs 170, BS4+ if both moved and 1 shot vs 2 shots. That is a 45 point difference that in my own personal opinion is solid for what you get from both tanks.

Fair enough you think it’d need to be more expensive with the 3+ and Grinding Advance, at least then it’d have a purpose instead of being a tough-ish tank that hits like a wet noodle.

I can agree that it hits like a wet noodle, russes did so too before the grinding advance. So I have no problem with the vindicator getting grinding advance, along with a point hike that should go with it. Only thought it would be too cheap at 140 points. Of course it could be so that both the vindicator and the russ demolisher is both over costed for what they do.

I much prefer it at the current cost, really. I use the gun more against elite infantry than I do tanks, but it never hits like a wet noodle as long as my dice aren't terrible.

I think, like most threads on here, the naysayers are mathhammerites who probably haven't actually used the tank in a game. It's absolutely fine at its cost. Just don't expect the world. Ignore the naysayers.

 Elbows wrote:
I think, like most threads on here, the naysayers are mathhammerites who probably haven't actually used the tank in a game. It's absolutely fine at its cost. Just don't expect the world. Ignore the naysayers.

Mathematically it looks fairly decent, actually. At 127 points, it offers the effective equivalent of 1d3 Lascannon shots at 24" on a T8 platform compared to a 192 point Predator that offers 4 Lascannon shots at 48" on a T7 platform. Even considering that the Vindicator has to move, it seems like it's a good deal, considering that it's 65 points less. Compared to a Lasback, you're getting +1T for 5 points and the range reduction.

Now, I neither use Vindicators myself nor do I frequently have them used against me, so I don't have a whole lot of experience with them. However, I would hazard that they're unliked for the same reason that I don't particularly like the Exorcist's stats: that is, that the tank's gun simply doesn't do enough in the first place to warrant it's base cost. A unit's resiliency is only as relevant as the enemy cares about the unit in question, and a Vindicator's Demolisher Cannon doesn't lend itself to being a target. While the tank chassis and cannon may be fairly priced for their characteristics independently of each other, the cannon's performance doesn't warrant the tank chassis's defensive statline.

D6 shots at D6 damage and costing 160/175 points would be usable, but it would need a cost reduction to the point where it's broken due to resiliency at it's current statline.

 Elbows wrote:
I think, like most threads on here, the naysayers are mathhammerites who probably haven't actually used the tank in a game. It's absolutely fine at its cost. Just don't expect the world. Ignore the naysayers.

It really isn't that usable. The Predator is worth the extra points and if you have to choose between the two you ought to make points for the Predator.

But that's not entirely the point of this thread is it? The OP said they like the model. So unless it's an absolute turd on treads - the consensus is use one.

I just made a 1kson list with 3 vindicators. The Line Breaker stratagem is what I am counting on to make them work. The stratagem not only ignores the -1 to hit from movement but the Demo cannons an effective 34 inch range and 3d3 mortal wounds is nothing to sneeze at (luck depending).

Because I am running 1ksons I get a possible re-roll due to Gaze of Fate on top of the command point re-roll. So you can reroll if linebreaker does not stick and one of the mortal wound die 3. On average you are looking at 6 mortal wounds on your target.

I'm sure there are targets and times where you would just rather roll the cannon's instead of the stratagem. And that is great, saves you a command point.

The price is what makes these guys decent imho. Also it add's three targets to the table your opponent wont want to ignore after he gets punched by them (luck depending). Target saturation is important in the alpha strike meta.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
However, I would hazard that they're unliked for the same reason that I don't particularly like the Exorcist's stats: that is, that the tank's gun simply doesn't do enough in the first place to warrant it's base cost. A unit's resiliency is only as relevant as the enemy cares about the unit in question, and a Vindicator's Demolisher Cannon doesn't lend itself to being a target. While the tank chassis and cannon may be fairly priced for their characteristics independently of each other, the cannon's performance doesn't warrant the tank chassis's defensive statline.

You’ve hit the nail on the head here. They could make it 200 points and give it the Fellblade’s statline and it still wouldn’t be very good. It simply isn’t dangerous enough to worth targeting when there is scarier stuff to deal with. It’s actually the exact opposite problem the Razorback had - its chassis is only worth 60 or 65 points (it has less capacity than a Rhino and no self-repair function), and the twin Assault Cannon is worth 44, but chassis + gun is worth more than 100-ish points.

Personally, I would:

- Leave the Predator as is, it’s in a good place
- Let the Vindicator Fire twice if it moved half distance and ignore penalties for moving and shooting the Demolisher Cannon
- Straight up double the Whirlwind’s number of shots for both Missile types

Then increase points as needed.

 Elbows wrote:

 AaronWilson wrote:
If the vindicator wasn't just heavy D3 I'd like it a looooooooooot more.

It'd be broken at D6 normal shots all the time, allowing (potentially) 36 wounds in a single shot against a vehicle at Strength 10, no thanks. For the points, I think the Vindicator is a fine assault gun...it's just that a 24" range gun makes it not very flexible.

A LR aleady does that...except its 2d3 which is much better than d6. Plus it has 3 additional guns more wounds and a army trait. It wouldn't be broken.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd just like to point out that a Eldar D cannon support weapon cost 75 points and it is the exact same weapon profile (it just doesn't get d6 shots vs units of 5 or more) it doesn't need LOS though (probably better than the d6 shot vs 5 units option). They are only T5 with 5 wounds and a 4+ save. BUT they do get an army trait (I play ulthwe with a 6+++). They are just tough enough to kill to require heavy weapons to bring them down effectively but their damage is off the chain for the points.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Elbows wrote:

 AaronWilson wrote:
If the vindicator wasn't just heavy D3 I'd like it a looooooooooot more.

It'd be broken at D6 normal shots all the time, allowing (potentially) 36 wounds in a single shot against a vehicle at Strength 10, no thanks. For the points, I think the Vindicator is a fine assault gun...it's just that a 24" range gun makes it not very flexible.

A LR aleady does that...except its 2d3 which is much better than d6. Plus it has 3 additional guns more wounds and a army trait. It wouldn't be broken.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd just like to point out that a Eldar D cannon support weapon cost 75 points and it is the exact same weapon profile (it just doesn't get d6 shots vs units of 5 or more) it doesn't need LOS though (probably better than the d6 shot vs 5 units option). They are only T5 with 5 wounds and a 4+ save. BUT they do get an army trait (I play ulthwe with a 6+++). They are just tough enough to kill to require heavy weapons to bring them down effectively but their damage is off the chain for the points.

The Leman Russ Demolisher is complete gak though. The only worse Leman Russ is the Vanquisher. Yeah, it's better than the Vindicator, but that's a low bar to surpass.

It just occurred to me that it might be more worthwhile to drastically increase the shot count and decrease the damage. 2d6 Shots for 2 damage would be good, and make it distinct from being an inferior predator.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Elbows wrote:

 AaronWilson wrote:
If the vindicator wasn't just heavy D3 I'd like it a looooooooooot more.

It'd be broken at D6 normal shots all the time, allowing (potentially) 36 wounds in a single shot against a vehicle at Strength 10, no thanks. For the points, I think the Vindicator is a fine assault gun...it's just that a 24" range gun makes it not very flexible.

A LR aleady does that...except its 2d3 which is much better than d6. Plus it has 3 additional guns more wounds and a army trait. It wouldn't be broken.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd just like to point out that a Eldar D cannon support weapon cost 75 points and it is the exact same weapon profile (it just doesn't get d6 shots vs units of 5 or more) it doesn't need LOS though (probably better than the d6 shot vs 5 units option). They are only T5 with 5 wounds and a 4+ save. BUT they do get an army trait (I play ulthwe with a 6+++). They are just tough enough to kill to require heavy weapons to bring them down effectively but their damage is off the chain for the points.

The Leman Russ Demolisher is complete gak though. The only worse Leman Russ is the Vanquisher. Yeah, it's better than the Vindicator, but that's a low bar to surpass.

It just occurred to me that it might be more worthwhile to drastically increase the shot count and decrease the damage. 2d6 Shots for 2 damage would be good, and make it distinct from being an inferior predator.

Why is the LR Demolisher bad? From what I have read they should be good AT-platform. But I have not have the opportunity to try them out untill today, as I will have my first game with two of them in my 2k list later.

In former editions, I ran three of them in concert.
No way to hide within 24'' death area - wait, cover was an issue but it is no longer.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Elbows wrote:

 AaronWilson wrote:
If the vindicator wasn't just heavy D3 I'd like it a looooooooooot more.

It'd be broken at D6 normal shots all the time, allowing (potentially) 36 wounds in a single shot against a vehicle at Strength 10, no thanks. For the points, I think the Vindicator is a fine assault gun...it's just that a 24" range gun makes it not very flexible.

A LR aleady does that...except its 2d3 which is much better than d6. Plus it has 3 additional guns more wounds and a army trait. It wouldn't be broken.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd just like to point out that a Eldar D cannon support weapon cost 75 points and it is the exact same weapon profile (it just doesn't get d6 shots vs units of 5 or more) it doesn't need LOS though (probably better than the d6 shot vs 5 units option). They are only T5 with 5 wounds and a 4+ save. BUT they do get an army trait (I play ulthwe with a 6+++). They are just tough enough to kill to require heavy weapons to bring them down effectively but their damage is off the chain for the points.

The Leman Russ Demolisher is complete gak though. The only worse Leman Russ is the Vanquisher. Yeah, it's better than the Vindicator, but that's a low bar to surpass.

It just occurred to me that it might be more worthwhile to drastically increase the shot count and decrease the damage. 2d6 Shots for 2 damage would be good, and make it distinct from being an inferior predator.

Compared to manticores and battle cannon russ I agree - the demolisher is quite bad for a meta choice. If 10 man terminator squads were actually a thing though - the demolisher would better at killing them.

I like your suggestion though - 2d6 shots with 2 damage a peice all the time would be a nice place for it. Also I see no reason why the vindi and the demolisher should have different rates of fire with the exact same weapon.

This thread makes me realize how massive the power shift is between editions. From 3-5th, people were genuinely afraid of what a Vindicator would do. Had I actually gotten 5 like I wanted, it would have been glorious. Now, it's a subpar choice. So weird...

In those editions it was terrifying. Str10 was enough to cause Instant Death on anything that wasn’t a Monstrous Creature and wound any non-vehicle in the game on a 2+, 2D6/pick highest Armour Penetration gave an excellent chance of penetrating any vehicle armour and then had a chance to Explode/Annihilate the vehicle, AP2 straight up ignored any and all armour, and the Large Blast was enough to score a hit on a whole Terminator Squad with decent-ish odds or blow a smoking crater in an infantry blob.

It lost all of that. It now wounds anything bigger than a bike on 3s rather than 2s, most things that aren’t light infantry or very light vehicles still get a save, it’s damage once it gets through is completely random from ‘Instant Death on their Warlord’ to ‘failed to kill a Primaris Marine outright’, it now averages 2 shots hitting most of the time on 4s instead of 3s, which goes up to an average of 3.5 shots against infantry blobs, doesn’t have the ability to hit multiple units... and all it got in return was the ability to maybe get a second or third shot against larger models, with which it ja extremely unlikely to blow them up in one go anyway.

I love Vindicators, I own 3 of the things, but they’ve come crashing down from previous editions.

Seeing as I still play 3rd with my personal group, I may have to chase down two more eventually...

I really wanted one when it came out in 3rd ed, after waiting a long time I ended up getting the land raider instead when it first went on the shelves.

To me what hurts it now are the random number of shots. If it had 3/6 it would be in a better place.

The appeal of the vindicator was the large template. Go figure what this thing is worth now in 8th...

So my second game using the 3, well, they did their job again for what's it's worth, they took a fair amount of firepower away from my main force, there shooting was rather lacklustre but they tanked (ha!) a lot of hits.

Dark reaper man, Jesus, they nuked my dark shroud turn 2, then focused on the vindicators I was shoving down their necks, killing 1 turn 3 and 4, but due to bad target priority they didn't target the doredos ripping the rest of his army apart.

Whoever said they work as distraction carnifex was correct, I am finding this to be very true.

 Formosa wrote:
So my second game using the 3, well, they did their job again for what's it's worth, they took a fair amount of firepower away from my main force, there shooting was rather lacklustre but they tanked (ha!) a lot of hits.

Dark reaper man, Jesus, they nuked my dark shroud turn 2, then focused on the vindicators I was shoving down their necks, killing 1 turn 3 and 4, but due to bad target priority they didn't target the doredos ripping the rest of his army apart.

Whoever said they work as distraction carnifex was correct, I am finding this to be very true.

T8 is just so great - all those piddly guns that don't mind rolling 5s on my predators are nearly futile on this thing. Have you been able to make use of Linebreaker at all?

Vindicators are crap, laser vindicators are amazing. Take the good one.

 King Amroth wrote:
Vindicators are crap, laser vindicators are amazing. Take the good one.

You can get three vindicators for every two of those. And for less money. There's certainly advantages to that gun - 8 shots when standing still to the 6 average. But then it's only ever good against vehicles and needs a babysitter if it overcharges. 3D6 shots or Linebreaker adds value.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 King Amroth wrote:
Vindicators are crap, laser vindicators are amazing. Take the good one.

You can get three vindicators for every two of those. And for less money. There's certainly advantages to that gun - 8 shots when standing still to the 6 average. But then it's only ever good against vehicles and needs a babysitter if it overcharges. 3D6 shots or Linebreaker adds value.

If the laser vindicator wants to use the over charged mode then it cant fire twice. Technically I think the laser destroyer can be used for the line breaker stratagem since it has the vindicator keyword. (Dont have the codex with me so might be wrong though) The normal vindicator isnt great or good but it can be fun and mediocre

tedurur wrote:


If the laser vindicator wants to use the over charged mode then it cant fire twice.

Ah, yea good catch/

The normal vindicator isnt great or good but it can be fun and mediocre

Which, to me, combined with the psychology of it makes it shine just a tad more brightly.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
So my second game using the 3, well, they did their job again for what's it's worth, they took a fair amount of firepower away from my main force, there shooting was rather lacklustre but they tanked (ha!) a lot of hits.

Dark reaper man, Jesus, they nuked my dark shroud turn 2, then focused on the vindicators I was shoving down their necks, killing 1 turn 3 and 4, but due to bad target priority they didn't target the doredos ripping the rest of his army apart.

Whoever said they work as distraction carnifex was correct, I am finding this to be very true.

T8 is just so great - all those piddly guns that don't mind rolling 5s on my predators are nearly futile on this thing. Have you been able to make use of Linebreaker at all?

Those CP are better used elsewhere in my dark angels, but when I get the chance I will drop it on someone