What faction/army/race should be fully desotroyed?

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**Brutus_Apex**

Tau. Hands down, no questions asked.

They don’t belong in 40k. They should never have been included.

**Martel732**

Space marines. There are so few in number that they wouldn't last an afternoon in a real battle.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Martel732 wrote:
Space marines. There are so few in number that they wouldn't last an afternoon in a real battle.

To be fair, that's only because GW never uses them right.
Ideally, they should only be used few at a time in precise surgical strikes.
Not on in open battle field, where they will probably be outnumbered and encircled. Like in every bloody artwork ever. Because GW can't into modern tactics.
This is why we need chapter serfs. So marines can have the bodies required to ensure they don't get outflanked and surrounded.

**Martel732**

"Ideally, they should only be used few at a time in precise surgical strikes."

They'd still die in an afternoon. One bad surgical strike and the entire chapter is dead. GW has no sense of scale. The US lost thousands in one day of fighting with Civil War technology.

Also, marines aren't powerful enough to do surgical strikes. A few dozen plasma guns lays waste to a chapter, tanks included.

**Unit1126PLL**

To be fair, Martel, "surgical strikes" can mean anything. You wouldn't get the Space Marines involved in an open war, but you certainly could use them to drop in and take out a rebellious group or something by surprise.

More like a SWAT team or SAS than a battlefield army. Marines should never be a battlefield army, the way GW has written them. If they had any sense of scale, they'd put Marines more like the Army Rangers and less like the Navy SEALs, imo.

**Martel732**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
To be fair, Martel, "surgical strikes" can mean anything. You wouldn't get the Space Marines involved in an open war, but you certainly could use them to drop in and take out a rebellious group or something by surprise.

More like a SWAT team or SAS than a battlefield army. Marines should never be a battlefield army, the way GW has written them. If they had any sense of scale, they'd put Marines more like the Army Rangers and less like the Navy SEALs, imo.

There are still WAY more than 1,000 rangers and that's for ONE nation on ONE planet. Chapters are too small to do anything other than participate in parades.

**Unit1126PLL**

Martel732 wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
To be fair, Martel, "surgical strikes" can mean anything. You wouldn't get the Space Marines involved in an open war, but you certainly could use them to drop in and take out a rebellious group or something by surprise.

More like a SWAT team or SAS than a battlefield army. Marines should never be a battlefield army, the way GW has written them. If they had any sense of scale, they'd put Marines more like the Army Rangers and less like the Navy SEALs, imo.

There are still WAY more than 1,000 rangers and that's for ONE nation on ONE planet. Chapters are too small to do anything other than participate in parades.

Right... which is why I said "if they had any sense of scale, they'd make them more like the Rangers."

Not "they are like the Rangers as they are now."

**CthuluIsSpy**

Martel732 wrote:
"Ideally, they should only be used few at a time in precise surgical strikes."

They'd still die in an afternoon. One bad surgical strike and the entire chapter is dead. GW has no sense of scale. The US lost thousands in one day of fighting with Civil War technology.

Also, marines aren't powerful enough to do surgical strikes. A few dozen plasma guns lays waste to a chapter, tanks included.

How would they lose a chapter if they just used a few at a time, in conjunction with the imperial guard? If you used your entire army at once just to kill a general, you are a bad tactician.
Also, aren't plasma guns super rare, and don't you think they marines would, idk, look first too see if the enemy has such weapons, and if so, prioritize their destruction?
Just because GW's idea of tactics is to perform a banzai attack across no man's land doesn't mean it has to be that way.

**Martel732**

Ah, I see. It can also be fixed by making chapters 10,000,000 strong. That's plausible interplanetary scale.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
"Ideally, they should only be used few at a time in precise surgical strikes."

They'd still die in an afternoon. One bad surgical strike and the entire chapter is dead. GW has no sense of scale. The US lost thousands in one day of fighting with Civil War technology.

Also, marines aren't powerful enough to do surgical strikes. A few dozen plasma guns lays waste to a chapter, tanks included.

How would they lose a chapter if they just used a few at a time, in conjunction with the imperial guard? If you used your entire army at once just to kill a general, you are a bad tactician.

Because you have to send a whole chapter to do anything in the first place. A few don't do anything.

**Unit1126PLL**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
"Ideally, they should only be used few at a time in precise surgical strikes."

They'd still die in an afternoon. One bad surgical strike and the entire chapter is dead. GW has no sense of scale. The US lost thousands in one day of fighting with Civil War technology.

Also, marines aren't powerful enough to do surgical strikes. A few dozen plasma guns lays waste to a chapter, tanks included.

How would they lose a chapter if they just used a few at a time, in conjunction with the imperial guard? If you used your entire army at once just to kill a general, you are a bad tactician.

"Just a few at a time" won't kill a general. That's the problem. Dropping 5 Marines atop the enemy's command bunker in one drop-pod will likely have the result of scattered marine body-parts and drop-pod wreckage over an unimaginably huge area, and the smoking barrel of an air defense laser a few meters away from the command bunker.

Turns out things dropping from orbit that aren't maneuvering are fairly easy targets for computer-assisted directed-energy weapons.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
"Ideally, they should only be used few at a time in precise surgical strikes."

They'd still die in an afternoon. One bad surgical strike and the entire chapter is dead. GW has no sense of scale. The US lost thousands in one day of fighting with Civil War technology.

Also, marines aren't powerful enough to do surgical strikes. A few dozen plasma guns lays waste to a chapter, tanks included.

How would they lose a chapter if they just used a few at a time, in conjunction with the imperial guard? If you used your entire army at once just to kill a general, you are a bad tactician.

"Just a few at a time" won't kill a general. That's the problem. Dropping 5 Marines atop the enemy's command bunker in one drop-pod will likely have the result of scattered marine body-parts and drop-pod wreckage over an unimaginably huge area, and the smoking barrel of an air defense laser a few meters away from the command bunker.

Turns out things dropping from orbit that aren't maneuvering are fairly easy targets for computer-assisted directed-energy weapons.

Hm, good point. Might need a team of marines to shut down the defenses then. Or have the guard do it. Or airstrike / shell the AA emplacements.
I mean, that's how combined arms and tactics work, right?

**Martel732**

1,000 of anything is mindbogglingly small even on a national scale. On a interplanetary or GALACTIC scale? Come on. It's dumb and breaks any credibility their fiction has.

As I said, a few dozen plasma guns ends a whole chapter.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Martel732 wrote:
1,000 of anything is mindbogglingly small even on a national scale. On a interplanetary or GALACTIC scale? Come on. It's dumb and breaks any credibility their fiction has.

Yeah, that is pretty small for a chapter. Should be 5 times that much, in keeping with that imperial rule where marines can't be in legions of 180,000. Keep in mind there's multiple chapters too, so its not as if there are just 1000 marines total in the galaxy.

**Dandelion**

There's probably also more baneblades than marines in the galaxy.

**Martel732**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
1,000 of anything is mindbogglingly small even on a national scale. On a interplanetary or GALACTIC scale? Come on. It's dumb and breaks any credibility their fiction has.

Yeah, that is pretty small for a chapter. Should be 5 times that much, in keeping with that imperial rule where marines can't be in legions of 180,000. Keep in mind there's multiple chapters too, so its not as if there are just 1000 marines total in the galaxy.

No, it should be in the millions. Per chapter. Galaxies are HUGE. Hive worlds are HUGE. The only plausible situation is quadrillions of guardsmen, billions of marines. You'll lose 200K marines on a bad day vs Eldar.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dandelion wrote:
There's probably also more baneblades than marines in the galaxy.

Which alone makes marines pointless.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Martel732 wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
1,000 of anything is mindbogglingly small even on a national scale. On a interplanetary or GALACTIC scale? Come on. It's dumb and breaks any credibility their fiction has.

Yeah, that is pretty small for a chapter. Should be 5 times that much, in keeping with that imperial rule where marines can't be in legions of 180,000. Keep in mind there's multiple chapters too, so its not as if there are just 1000 marines total in the galaxy.

No, it should be in the millions. Galaxies are HUGE. Hive worlds are HUGE. The only plausible situation is quadrillions of guardsmen, billions of marines.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dandelion wrote:
There's probably also more baneblades than marines in the galaxy.

Which alone makes marines pointless.

Yeah ok, that does make sense narratively. Space Marines were intended to police the Imperium. Can't do that if the police force is too small.

**Martel732**

It also would help explain why chapter masters are such a big deal. If Dante commanded MILLIONS of BA, that's a big deal. It's also more plausible how they almost held off billions of bugs.

But as written, space marines should die. Tomorrow. And Chaos marines would be wiped out virtually overnight. As soon as they try to engage, boom. All dead.

**HuskyWarhammer**

Get rid of the Twilight Space Marines: Blood Angels and Space Wolves.

40k doesn't need vampires and werewolves parading around. I'm fine with a jovial Nurgle, but they just come across as a bad combination of too silly and too Mary Sue for my taste.

**Stormonu**

shortymcnostrill wrote:

There is only one answer to this question: space marines.

Everything would be better both in and out of game if they did that. They're bunch of mary-sue edge lords who would completely lose all major galactic wars without their plot armor. They are no soldiers.

Without space marines, we could have real war, with consequences, because there would be none of that wishy-washy "we suffered great losses but managed to refill our chapter's ranks in time for the next war!"-crap.

That’s the thing about Space Marines. When your entire army consists of only 1,000 troops recruited from a world populated by billions, it’s pretty easy to find replacements. Especiial;y when they are made via surgery,chemical injections and brain-washing.

**G00fySmiley**

Martel732 wrote:
It also would help explain why chapter masters are such a big deal. If Dante commanded MILLIONS of BA, that's a big deal. It's also more plausible how they almost held off billions of bugs.

But as written, space marines should die. Tomorrow. And Chaos marines would be wiped out virtually overnight. As soon as they try to engage, boom. All dead.

you are not taking into account the strongest armor in the 41st millennia... plot armor

**Martel732**

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
Get rid of the Twilight Space Marines: Blood Angels and Space Wolves.

40k doesn't need vampires and werewolves parading around. I'm fine with a jovial Nurgle, but they just come across as a bad combination of too silly and too Mary Sue for my taste.

BA are so Mary Sue that they constantly get their asses kicked in the fluff.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

G00fySmiley wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
It also would help explain why chapter masters are such a big deal. If Dante commanded MILLIONS of BA, that's a big deal. It's also more plausible how they almost held off billions of bugs.

But as written, space marines should die. Tomorrow. And Chaos marines would be wiped out virtually overnight. As soon as they try to engage, boom. All dead.

you are not taking into account the strongest armor in the 41st millennia... plot armor

I am. I'm merely rejecting it.

**pm713**

ServiceGames wrote:
Peregrine wrote:
Because the "end times" was clearly GW's deliberate attempt to kill off WHFB and replace it with AoS. It was nothing more than a fluff justification for the plan to introduce AoS. No AoS, no end times, no destruction of WHFB.
They were just advancing the story... just like they did with the Gathering Storm in the 40K universe. In 40K, army names have changed, new armies have been added (Ynnari for example), some models no longer seem to exist (at least the codices). I'm seeing a lot of parallels between "The Old World" and and the end of the war around the Eye of Terror. There's nothing wrong with moving a story along that hasn't changed in 25 years.

SG

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think it's rather funny that people are wanting to get rid of Chaos Daemons. Doesn't make much sense. The Chaos gods create these daemons. It just so happens that the same Chaos gods exist in both Fantasy and 40K. It makes perfect sense for them to be in both settings.

SG

No a parallel would be the removal of all factions except Chaos Demons and returning as a game with nothing but tanks versus demons.

**CthuluIsSpy**

pm713 wrote:
ServiceGames wrote:
Peregrine wrote:
Because the "end times" was clearly GW's deliberate attempt to kill off WHFB and replace it with AoS. It was nothing more than a fluff justification for the plan to introduce AoS. No AoS, no end times, no destruction of WHFB.
They were just advancing the story... just like they did with the Gathering Storm in the 40K universe. In 40K, army names have changed, new armies have been added (Ynnari for example), some models no longer seem to exist (at least the codices). I'm seeing a lot of parallels between "The Old World" and and the end of the war around the Eye of Terror. There's nothing wrong with moving a story along that hasn't changed in 25 years.

SG

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think it's rather funny that people are wanting to get rid of Chaos Daemons. Doesn't make much sense. The Chaos gods create these daemons. It just so happens that the same Chaos gods exist in both Fantasy and 40K. It makes perfect sense for them to be in both settings.

SG

No a parallel would be the removal of all factions except Chaos Demons and returning as a game with nothing but tanks versus demons.

Yeah, the introduction of AoS and the outcome of the fall of cadia is hardly the same.
The crucial difference being that there's still an imperium, there's a galaxy, and its still recognizable as 40k. AoS is not recognizable as WHFB.
The Fall of Cadia is how they should have handled the End Times. There would still be an Old World, but its just super screwed up. Basically what Storm of Chaos would have been like had they actually implemented the supposed outcome.

**carldooley**

Martel732 wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
1,000 of anything is mindbogglingly small even on a national scale. On a interplanetary or GALACTIC scale? Come on. It's dumb and breaks any credibility their fiction has.

Yeah, that is pretty small for a chapter. Should be 5 times that much, in keeping with that imperial rule where marines can't be in legions of 180,000. Keep in mind there's multiple chapters too, so its not as if there are just 1000 marines total in the galaxy.

No, it should be in the millions. Per chapter. Galaxies are HUGE. Hive worlds are HUGE. The only plausible situation is quadrillions of guardsmen, billions of marines. You'll lose 200K marines on a bad day vs Eldar.

The answer IMO was always the 'scouts' or neophytes. Call it in the fluff that a chapter only has access to so many suits of terminator or power armor, and the neophytes are serving the role of battlefield auxiliaries waiting to replace losses. It would also make techmarines and the gene seed collectors (it has been a while since I played marines) much more meaningful on a field of battle.

**Blackie**

A 40k edition without space marines would be my dream

**ERJAK**

Slaanesh. It's the single worst thing about both 40k and Sigmar.

**Vankraken**

ERJAK wrote:
Slaanesh. It's the single worst thing about both 40k and Sigmar.

Slaanesh did kill the vast majority of Eldar so I would hardly consider him..... her...... it the worst thing about 40k.

**corpuschain**

RedMesa2391 wrote:
Nothing should be deleted or added (especially not anymore imperial subfactions).

I'd rather 40k were left as a static setting because it's really cool as a setting. It's not so cool as an unfolding story; too many cringy Mary-sue characters and idiotic rubbish like super-super soldiers,

Agreed. I didn't like Gathering Storm much. It was hard to read due to poor writing, but the Mary-Sue-ness of it all was quite annoying. The only good bit was the huge ship crashing into Cadia. I haven't even read any of the post-Guilliman fluff, as Primarchs coming back to life already sounds like too much hope for mankind.
I always loved the stagnant nature of the background. Remember that, 'in the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war.' If things change, it may no longer be grim and dark, or worse still, there might be some sort of peace, and we can't be having that.

**CREEEEEEEEED**

Just headcannon pretty much all GW numbers to be bigger.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
"Just a few at a time" won't kill a general. That's the problem. Dropping 5 Marines atop the enemy's command bunker in one drop-pod will likely have the result of scattered marine body-parts and drop-pod wreckage over an unimaginably huge area, and the smoking barrel of an air defense laser a few meters away from the command bunker.

Turns out things dropping from orbit that aren't maneuvering are fairly easy targets for computer-assisted directed-energy weapons.

Really? Does that mean that lasers are a very efficient defence against kinectic bombardment?
Well, even without any defenses, if you put some marines on a god rod there will still be scattered marine body-parts over an unimaginably huge area, but at least you'll have destroyed the command bunker and everyone in it too

.

mew28 wrote:
Also the CSM should have bein wiped out by now as getting new members is a pain in the ass for them and they lose guys all the time.

How to recruit a new Chaos Marine in two steps :
1) Find a loyalist space marine
2) Tempt him. Popular suggestions involves saying stuff like "We have cookies" or "Hey, why not, could be fun right?"
Seems fairly easy to me.