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The only thing that could possibly interest me about a Kroot 'dex is if it offered new aggressive strategic options to Tau's playbook (especially since GW seems to think that Tau should be a static gunline and only a static gunline...)

An Auxiliaries 'dex, on the other hand, may have much more of substance to offer.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
not gunu lie... I kinda want dino riders in 40k... I could see them working will with my Orks. XD

Not if you know the history of the Kroot...

The first encounters between the Tau and Kroot were fighting against Orks.

I bought the plastic I can make up what ever history I want!

Not if they don't have them as being able to ally with each other...

WTF DO YOU THINK I PLAY BOY?!?!? TOURNAMENTS?!?! I PLAY IN MAH BASEMENT AGAINST MYSELF! I CAN DO WHAT I WANT!

KinGensai wrote:
The only thing that could possibly interest me about a Kroot 'dex is if it offered new aggressive strategic options to Tau's playbook (especially since GW seems to think that Tau should be a static gunline and only a static gunline...)

An Auxiliaries 'dex, on the other hand, may have much more of substance to offer.

An auxillary dex with fleshed out kroot, vespid, gue'vesa and nicassar, as well as some of the other ones mentioned but never expanded would be a really good thing imo.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

KinGensai wrote:
The only thing that could possibly interest me about a Kroot 'dex is if it offered new aggressive strategic options to Tau's playbook (especially since GW seems to think that Tau should be a static gunline and only a static gunline...)

An Auxiliaries 'dex, on the other hand, may have much more of substance to offer.

An auxillary dex with fleshed out kroot, vespid, gue'vesa and nicassar, as well as some of the other ones mentioned but never expanded would be a really good thing imo.

Not really, it'd be frigging awful.

Kroot, as a concept, at least have the ability to be fleshed out into a full subfaction.
Nicassar are auxiliaries, Gue'vasa could effectively be put in via FW and a Renegades and Heretics(gee...) styled list, and Vespid aren't really fleshed out anywhere near enough to make a real judgement call I guess.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

There are kroot who travel the galaxy and fight for the highest bidder. They are independent. I have never challenged this.

Pech constantly sends out troops to go fight for the highest bidder, so those Kroot roaming the galaxy are all a part of the same faction. So if those "freelancer" kroot are independent, then so are the rest of the Kroot. Why else would they try to hide their mercenary operations?

While the contract with the Tau is supposed to be an exclusive one, the Kroot regularly send out their warspheres to continue their mercenary trade amongst the wider cosmos.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Kroot

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

Then there are kroot who are a part of the tau empire, who have wholly pledged allegiance, not mercenaries with preferred contracts. They are integrated members. Not slaves (which I never claimed), but members of the tau empire, like the vespids or gue'vesa, or nicassar or demiurge.

Pledging allegiance and being integrated members (or vassals) of an empire are two different things. The fact that Kroot require payment for their services means they are fully capable of refusing to send troops anywhere. They are still independent, and they are likely the most independent race out of all the Tau's auxiliary races.

Something I've wanted to see for a while is a female Vespid model. They were stated as being substantially larger, stronger, and tougher than male (standard) vespid. I'd imagine them to be the "Ogryn" of the Vespid race. Not quite as large as a Crisis suit, but faster, possibly geared more towards close combat.

I'm willing to trust the official lore of the codex over your headcannon and an unofficial fan wiki.

I'm sorry, but none of what you're seeing there directly contradicts what he's said.

The fact that it highlights them being "a wandering and feral race" and how they are "found scattered across the galaxy" is kind of a big deal in supporting what he's said as well.

I said, there is a diaspora of mercs. And the kroot from pech who are integrated.
He said they're all mercs with preferred contracts with the tau.
He, and you, rejected the notion that there were integrated kroot. And yet, it very specifically says that pech is within the tau empire's borders, and the kroot there are integrated.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
I said, there is a diaspora of mercs. And the kroot from pech who are integrated.
He said they're all mercs with preferred contracts with the tau.
He, and you, rejected the notion that there were integrated kroot. And yet, it very specifically says that pech is within the tau empire's borders, and the kroot there are integrated.

Please show me once where I've stated that there were no integrated Kroot.

I've stated that they are semi-independent and have been allowed to effectively "get away with" some stuff in the interest of them being productive members of the Greater Good.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

Spoiler:

I'm willing to trust the official lore of the codex over your headcannon and an unofficial fan wiki.

Maybe I should change my wording. Would "autonomous" be a better description than "independent"? Much like how American Indian Reservations are technically their own countries while being wholly within the US.

Regardless, there are wandering kroot out there who could use some solid rules I think.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
I said, there is a diaspora of mercs. And the kroot from pech who are integrated.
He said they're all mercs with preferred contracts with the tau.
He, and you, rejected the notion that there were integrated kroot. And yet, it very specifically says that pech is within the tau empire's borders, and the kroot there are integrated.

Please show me once where I've stated that there were no integrated Kroot.

I've stated that they are semi-independent and have been allowed to effectively "get away with" some stuff in the interest of them being productive members of the Greater Good.

Sorry, I mixed that up. Still, semi-independent doesn't seem right to me. There are independent kroot and integrated kroot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dandelion wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

Spoiler:

I'm willing to trust the official lore of the codex over your headcannon and an unofficial fan wiki.

Maybe I should change my wording. Would "autonomous" be a better description than "independent"? Much like how American Indian Reservations are technically their own countries while being wholly within the US.

Regardless, there are wandering kroot out there who could use some solid rules I think.

Perhaps.

I think we're getting a little too caught up with wording here. My original comment was in reply to this:

Alcibiades wrote:

Kroot should be skirmishers and scouts (which is why they should not be viable as a stand-alone force). They should not have tough hard-hitting units in any respect. They are indeed chaff units -- they die so that the "first among equals" don't have to!

So while I agree that the Kroot are a part of the Empire, it seems to me that they also have a level of autonomy that lets them act independently from the Tau and thus would deserve being their own standalone army. If the Imperium can have fleshed out rules for its freaking church, then the Kroot should get some too.

Dandelion wrote:
So while I agree that the Kroot are a part of the Empire, it seems to me that they also have a level of autonomy that lets them act independently from the Tau and thus would deserve being their own standalone army. If the Imperium can have fleshed out rules for its freaking church, then the Kroot should get some too.

Yeah, but the sisters have the weight of years behind them. Personally I think we should roll all the minifactions like harlequins, tempestus, ynnari, the non vanilla marines, GSC, etc, back into their main factions. IMO don't need more.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
So while I agree that the Kroot are a part of the Empire, it seems to me that they also have a level of autonomy that lets them act independently from the Tau and thus would deserve being their own standalone army. If the Imperium can have fleshed out rules for its freaking church, then the Kroot should get some too.

Yeah, but the sisters have the weight of years behind them. Personally I think we should roll all the minifactions like harlequins, tempestus, ynnari, the non vanilla marines, GSC, etc, back into their main factions. IMO don't need more.

And that's where I'm going to have to disagree vehemently with you.

If anything, we need more minifactions so we can get more armies with the ability to ally little bits and balance out stuff a bit better.
Also, Tempestus are in the Guard book. You know that right?

"Some Commanders also use Stingwings to attack along side their Crisis Teams, for the winged insectoids have the speed and manoeuvrability to keep up with agile T’au jet packs. It is a great compliment that all five castes wholly welcome the Vespid Stingwings,a level of acceptance that has not yet been paid to the more mercenary Kroot of Pech."

"Although their primitive aggression is viewed with distaste by the T’au, such inherent savagery makes them particularly effective shocktroops."

These are both taken from the new codex, it sounds like vespids are held in higher regards than kroot. Also unless I'm not seeing it, the codex hardly mentions auxiliaries other than these two races.


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 Kanluwen wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
So while I agree that the Kroot are a part of the Empire, it seems to me that they also have a level of autonomy that lets them act independently from the Tau and thus would deserve being their own standalone army. If the Imperium can have fleshed out rules for its freaking church, then the Kroot should get some too.

Yeah, but the sisters have the weight of years behind them. Personally I think we should roll all the minifactions like harlequins, tempestus, ynnari, the non vanilla marines, GSC, etc, back into their main factions. IMO don't need more.

And that's where I'm going to have to disagree vehemently with you.

If anything, we need more minifactions so we can get more armies with the ability to ally little bits and balance out stuff a bit better.
Also, Tempestus are in the Guard book. You know that right?

In 7th tempestus had their own book with I think 5 entries

Given that there is most likely plenty of planets the kronor have colonised outside of tau space, I don’t see it an an issue that they fight all over the galaxy, maybe outposts actually rather than colonies.

 fraser1191 wrote:
"Some Commanders also use Stingwings to attack along side their Crisis Teams, for the winged insectoids have the speed and manoeuvrability to keep up with agile T’au jet packs. It is a great compliment that all five castes wholly welcome the Vespid Stingwings,a level of acceptance that has not yet been paid to the more mercenary Kroot of Pech."

"Although their primitive aggression is viewed with distaste by the T’au, such inherent savagery makes them particularly effective shocktroops."

These are both taken from the new codex, it sounds like vespids are held in higher regards than kroot. Also unless I'm not seeing it, the codex hardly mentions auxiliaries other than these two races.

Ehhhh...
Read pg 14 in the new Tau book with regards to the Kroot. The fact that the Tau themselves refer to the initial battle at Krath as "the War at the Place of Union" should give you an idea as to just how important they consider their alliance/"bond" with the Kroot.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
So while I agree that the Kroot are a part of the Empire, it seems to me that they also have a level of autonomy that lets them act independently from the Tau and thus would deserve being their own standalone army. If the Imperium can have fleshed out rules for its freaking church, then the Kroot should get some too.

Yeah, but the sisters have the weight of years behind them. Personally I think we should roll all the minifactions like harlequins, tempestus, ynnari, the non vanilla marines, GSC, etc, back into their main factions. IMO don't need more.

And that's where I'm going to have to disagree vehemently with you.

If anything, we need more minifactions so we can get more armies with the ability to ally little bits and balance out stuff a bit better.
Also, Tempestus are in the Guard book. You know that right?

In 7th tempestus had their own book with I think 5 entries

But what they had in 7th doesn't matter one bit because they don't have it anymore. They were one of the few armies that were said to be exempted from the "if they had a codex in 7th, they're getting a codex in 8th" rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:
Given that there is most likely plenty of planets the kronor have colonised outside of tau space, I don’t see it an an issue that they fight all over the galaxy, maybe outposts actually rather than colonies.

The Kroot refer to them as "enclaves" apparently.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

Yeah, but the sisters have the weight of years behind them. Personally I think we should roll all the minifactions like harlequins, tempestus, ynnari, the non vanilla marines, GSC, etc, back into their main factions. IMO don't need more.

I sympathize with the desire to have fewer books. It should be possible to include multiple sub-factions in one book with all the special rules associated. The indexes managed to fit Orks, Tau and Nids in one book, so I don't see it as infeasible to have separate sections with separate abilities within each book.

But, that ship has sailed already. GW has decided to use entire codexes for mini-factions. So if Kroot being standalone requires a new codex then so be it. ( besides, new kroot units would require a new book anyway because they aren't in the codex)

Dandelion wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

Yeah, but the sisters have the weight of years behind them. Personally I think we should roll all the minifactions like harlequins, tempestus, ynnari, the non vanilla marines, GSC, etc, back into their main factions. IMO don't need more.

I sympathize with the desire to have fewer books. It should be possible to include multiple sub-factions in one book with all the special rules associated. The indexes managed to fit Orks, Tau and Nids in one book, so I don't see it as infeasible to have separate sections with separate abilities within each book.

The indices also had none of the Sept/Clan/Hive Fleet rules, Relics, or Stratagems.


The "desire to have fewer books" shouldn't be confused with "I don't think <insert faction here> is a real army". That's what is happening here. He thinks those things aren't "real armies" because of whatever ridiculous reason.

I personally think we should have had more minifactions. I would have loved a Codex: Cadian Remnants with rules and models for Kasrkin, Thade(from the novel Cadian Blood), and "Regimental Traits" tied to the various Kasrs and their martial traditions.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The "desire to have fewer books" shouldn't be confused with "I don't think <insert faction here> is a real army". That's what is happening here. He thinks those things aren't "real armies" because of whatever ridiculous reason.

Again don't put words in my mouth. I want fewer books, that's why I said, 'roll the minifactions into the main codexes', not 'hurr durr, blood angels, what's that? those aren't a real army'.
We don't need a glut of books for minifactions that could very easily be represented by the main books. You can play Cadia within the current guard dex, and that's good. We don't need 6 near identical books for each guard regiment, let alone larger things like harlequins or GSC.
This is one of the main complaints towards the end of 7th, you usually had to have a whole library to play a game. 8th could go that way, and certainly would if we start rolling out books per regiment, chapter, craftworld, Sept, etc.

Ignoring all the conversation and just posting a want here.

I really want the Greater Knarlac, Knarlac, and Knarlac riders to come back, codex Kroot or no codex. They were cool models, and I was sad when FW stopped making them. Never got a chance to buy them on a 13 yold budget.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
The "desire to have fewer books" shouldn't be confused with "I don't think <insert faction here> is a real army". That's what is happening here. He thinks those things aren't "real armies" because of whatever ridiculous reason.

Again don't put words in my mouth. I want fewer books, that's why I said, 'roll the minifactions into the main codexes', not 'hurr durr, blood angels, what's that? those aren't a real army'.
We don't need a glut of books for minifactions that could very easily be represented by the main books. You can play Cadia within the current guard dex, and that's good. We don't need 6 near identical books for each guard regiment, let alone larger things like harlequins or GSC.

Sure you can play Cadia within the current Guard dex--that doesn't mean that you couldn't expand it into its own army, same with the other Regiments. That's the part you're missing and have missed in several other threads where we've had nearly this same discussion.

This is one of the main complaints towards the end of 7th, you usually had to have a whole library to play a game. 8th could go that way, and certainly would if we start rolling out books per regiment, chapter, craftworld, Sept, etc.

The reason why you "had to have a whole library to play a game" is because the stuff was put out over the entirety of the edition. So far they've made it clear that anyone and anything which will be "duplicate" choices will be printed in full for the Codex, not tell you to "See Codex <insert name here>".

You don't "need" to own every single book in existence to play the game.

I have always wanted somekind of a mercenary codex. Krootdex would be nicely, though I'd rather have a Codex: imperial agents-esque compilation of various minor factions.
You know, Tarellians, Kroot, Demiurg Eldar Corsair, Intependent human realms, Non chaos renegade space marines mercs ect. "Codes: Mercenaries"

Funny thing about the fluff is that in 40k it's always from someones point of view, so while in the Tau codex it says that the Tau consider the Kroot to be a part of their empire, its just what they think. Kroot on the other hand mostly seem to regard the Tau as one of their homeworlds neighbours, with whom they happen to have a lucrative contract. An amusing example of two cultures colliding in a mostly nonviolent fashion, one side sees annexation while the other one sees a deal. Reminds me of when tale of how, when Christopher Columbus met a Taino chief who gave him his headdress. The chief saw it as just a gift to seal a deal, but to Columbus it was a crown and as such the dude was surrendering to the Spanish crown.