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 Primark G wrote:
Bharring that is Martel's typical response I would ignore him too. Guard is okay but nearly at the level he portrays them as - it is a waste of time arguing with him.

This coming from a guy who didn't know the rules for stuff he was arguing about and who thinks a list with 50% Custodes is a Vanilla Space Marine list.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Bharring that is Martel's typical response I would ignore him too. Guard is okay but nearly at the level he portrays them as - it is a waste of time arguing with him.

This coming from a guy who didn't know the rules for stuff he was arguing about and who thinks a list with 50% Custodes is a Vanilla Space Marine list.

And doesn't actually know how units can be loaded out in said codex. The fact he didn't know Vanguard could take two Chainswords was beyond ridiculous.

Compared to thinking that taking slow CC units, such as Zerkers, is autolose, or that a screen or durable unit can't be a CC unit, missing that VV can have 2 weapons doesn't seem nearly as big a miss.

If you want to run a pure list I think Aggressors are a good way to go since they are versatile and reasonably costed.

Bharring wrote:
Compared to thinking that taking slow CC units, such as Zerkers, is autolose, or that a screen or durable unit can't be a CC unit, missing that VV can have 2 weapons doesn't seem nearly as big a miss.

It is one of the only talked about loadouts for them, and it was coming from a poster saying the codex was good, yet doesn't know how it operates.

Also just for repeat: nobody is taking non-fast Berserker Marines. You gotta get that in your head.

Melissia wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Termis are bad, avoid them.

Clearly the problem is you're only using one unit of terminators. I recommend using six units.

Jokes aside, they really aren't bad, you just can't expect to use them like they're jump pack assault units. You need to deploy and use them intelligently.

I dont use any termis. Even 10 units wouldnt make them good.

What's this slow Space Marines unit we're comparing to footslogging / non-Alpha Legion Berserkers? Or is this thread just not actually about Space Marines units anymore.

Anyone is welcome to show me how assault marines are good at killing guardsmen. Or any other marine melee unit for that matter. When i saw show, i mean math, not anecdotes.

It's the claim that Termies are bad because any slow CC unit is bad. Zerkers being just as slow but not being bad shows that that isn't the only thing that makes Termies bad.

I wanted to refute the point that any slow CC unit means you automatically lose the game. That's just flat wrong hyperbole.

Brainstorming to make cents useful...

Land Raider Crusader, TAC, 2x Hurricane Bolter - 308
3 Assault Cents, Flamers, Hurricane Bolter - 243
Lieutenant, TH, Jump, MCBG - 102 // Armor Indomitus
Chaplain - 72
Apothecary - 55
Librarian, Force Staff - 101 //Might of Heroes
2 Company Vets, Double CS- 32 (to tank explosions)

Razorback, THB, SB - 89
6 Tac Marines, Flamer - 87

Razorback, THB, SB - 89
6 Tac Marines, Flamer - 87

Rhino, 2x SB - 74
Assault Marines, CS/BP, TH&Combat Shield, 2x Plasma Pistol - 164 (elite slots gone)

10 Tac Marines, 2x HB - 150

Interceptor, 2x AC, 2x HB, Stormcannon - 166
Interceptor, 2x AC, 2x HB, Stormcannon - 166

Oddly enough Iron Hands seems appropriate here for the WL, strat, and tactic. It keeps the cents up longer and apothecary makes them stick. Use the interceptors to take down fliers that might flee.

7 drops means better chance for first turn.

Not sure if the cents will make it far in enough though...

Bharring wrote:
It's the claim that Termies are bad because any slow CC unit is bad. Zerkers being just as slow but not being bad shows that that isn't the only thing that makes Termies bad.

I wanted to refute the point that any slow CC unit means you automatically lose the game. That's just flat wrong hyperbole.

Termies make you lose because there's too many weapons easily knock 40-80 pts out of your list when they fire while only costing 40-80 pts themselves.

@ Daedalus81 - I have used asscents and they do some work plus for what you get I think they are reasonably costed.

Bharring wrote:
It's the claim that Termies are bad because any slow CC unit is bad. Zerkers being just as slow but not being bad shows that that isn't the only thing that makes Termies bad.

I wanted to refute the point that any slow CC unit means you automatically lose the game. That's just flat wrong hyperbole.

Zerkers aren't slow though. The ability to fight twice for free makes them - really fast. Starting your movement phase already in charging range helps too.
You might notice a serious lack of ravengaurd infiltrate assault lists. Marine units suck at CC. It is beyond pathetic.

This is true. Zerkers aren't slow. People take them in Alpha Legion lists, and even if they take them in other armies, they're usually protected by rhinos or something.

I am also perturbed by the fact that Raven Guard having Strike from the Shadows hasn't spawned any assault heavy lists. Being able to start the game in your opponent's face SHOULD put them at the top of the list for assault oriented armies, now that deep strike is nerfed.

But, everyone keeps telling me that assault marines are bad, vangaurd vets are overcosted and squishy, terminators are surprisingly squishy and slow, and other things need a list built around them to work. :/

Alright, well, I'm off to go find some other way to make my army work. Thanks for the help guys!

SftS only works when you go first. RG has not won any significant events during 8th edition.

On top of having to go first, infiltrating Aggressors or similar is also much better anyway.

SM don't have anything equivalent to Zerkers.

drbored wrote:
This is true. Zerkers aren't slow. People take them in Alpha Legion lists, and even if they take them in other armies, they're usually protected by rhinos or something.

I am also perturbed by the fact that Raven Guard having Strike from the Shadows hasn't spawned any assault heavy lists. Being able to start the game in your opponent's face SHOULD put them at the top of the list for assault oriented armies, now that deep strike is nerfed.

But, everyone keeps telling me that assault marines are bad, vangaurd vets are overcosted and squishy, terminators are surprisingly squishy and slow, and other things need a list built around them to work. :/

Alright, well, I'm off to go find some other way to make my army work. Thanks for the help guys!

The CT of Raven Guard tends to encourage armies that keep more distance. So while they have some neat deployment options, I think most people prefer to use them to get into a forward cover position and shoot instead.

Bharring wrote:
It's the claim that Termies are bad because any slow CC unit is bad. Zerkers being just as slow but not being bad shows that that isn't the only thing that makes Termies bad.

I wanted to refute the point that any slow CC unit means you automatically lose the game. That's just flat wrong hyperbole.

Its not only the slowness that makes termis bad. Compare assault termis to BA SG. Termis are more expensive, have no shooting (ok, they have 5++, but with 2+ sv and most weapons having AP-3 max you roll on 5+ anyway), but SG outperforms termis in pretty much every way. SG can use descent of angels, which gives them a 3D6 charge. Add a SG ancient with the standard of sacrifice as warlord and SG outperform termis significantly.

Agreed on the Stfs Aggressors - they are the number one unit to make use of this strat. If you can get first turn they provide three really strong options for you:

1) 9" drop, within 18" of as much chaff as possible, and dakkadakkdakka

2) 9" drop, walk in and delete the chaff, opening up a Powerfist chard on armour. Even shooting once they should have enough to wipe a guard unit, for example. This only works if your opponent didn't give enough space between their wrap and their assets. It does happen though, and will become more common now I think.

3) deploy into cover and spray bullets into a flank. They are T5 -1 to hit and 2+, so if they deploy at range from their natural predators (plasma) then they can be a royal pain in the ass to deal with.

Long story short, for RG lists, aggressors are my favourite Primaris unit now I think...

Assault Centurions become mediocre with SFtS, but that's about it.

You can put 12 centurions in a termite assault drill from FW Doesnt matter if they are assault or devastator. Deepstrike it, remain inside, next turn disembark 3" away from it, move 4". Shoot and charge.

 p5freak wrote:
You can put 12 centurions in a termite assault drill from FW Doesnt matter if they are assault or devastator. Deepstrike it, remain inside, next turn disembark 3" away from it, move 4". Shoot and charge.

Don't expect that to last very long BUT if the upcoming tournament you're going to doesn't give an errata...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Don't expect that to last very long BUT if the upcoming tournament you're going to doesn't give an errata...

Its FW, i do expect it to last very long. The relic contemptor dreadnought can still reroll hit rolls of 1s when it has two fists, which also counts for the overcharged plasma blastguns. Or the sicaran battle tank which ignores any modifiers when shooting FLY units.

Use allies to get some death company or wulfen?