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It’s so much more complicated than that.

Half the legion rebelled, that’s some 30-40 thousand fallen, why did they fall asks the imperium? Um... caliban was a tainted world sir... oh says the imperium, well as least you have your primarch to keep you in line... no sir.. he died... oh... well, we can’t take the risk that you are all tainted as well, sooooo .... yep, we’re gonna purge your legion.


The dark angels are also covering up the cover up, had the first chapter masters come clean then it’s quite likely, given the time, that the legion would have been purged, however as they covered it up, the following chapter masters had to do the same or explain why they covered it up in the first place, then you get the above issue playing out again.

When did an entire company die?

Odd how everyone forgets that the Inquisitor in charge was so monumentally bad at his job there were Grey Knights planning to assassinate him.

The Wolves killed a Grand Master after he fired on them and after several months of non violence, they attacked a fleet that was attacking their planet and they hardly just walked away considering they lost a significant part of their fleet, got hated even more by the Inquisition and ended with some of them actually looking for a way to kill their Chapter off.

tneva82 wrote:

 Glasdir wrote:

phillv85 wrote:
1. No, they're specialist Xeno killers. And as for if they're the only ones allowed on a hulk.... Space Hulk: Vengeance of the Blood Angels.... Space Hulk: Deathwing.

2. Yes

3. No

4. What? They're normal Dark Angels genes wise if that's what you mean.

5. Yes, in theory.... but good luck telling 1000 ceramite armoured killing machines to do something they don't want to

Only thing I'll correct there is that inquisitors are not able to command space marine chapters or contingents in any way.

By law yes they are. They have authority of Emperor with them so disobeying directly amounts to a treason.

But of course it's not as easy as that in practice if Inquisitor tries to order them stupidly. Marines can delay fullfilling and of course if they deem they can get away Inquisitor demanding help for personal vendetta could meet an "accident"

By law, no they can't, that was part of the aftermath of the Horus Heresy, in order to prevent such an event happening again everything in the Imperium was compartmentalized to prevent any individuals from having access to such a vast amount of power. No one has any command over a space marine chapter except the chapter master himself. Not even the High Lords of Terra have control over the space marine chapters, let alone some random inquisitor, whom, by the way command a lot less power than most people seem to think (think of them as having about the same amount of authority as a member of the CIA or MI5 and you're on the right track).
That's why chapters occasionally fall to chaos, because they are left relatively unchecked and because the only person able to issue orders to them is the chapter master. Because there is that lack of authority and orders being given by a higher power, some chapters just do what they please and become idle and to quote Dawn of War "heresy grows from idleness". Fortunately because they also have no authority over other chapters and departments of the Imperium they don't tend to drag anyone else down with them (Huron of course being an exception).

You gotta remember that there's a lot of politics in the imperium. While they're all technically working on the same side (hopefully), its a feudal system and they all have certain degrees of technical immunity. Eisenhorn was a good series for going into the overlaps of spheres of power.

Marines technically serve the emperor first and foremost. Inquisition technically serve the emperor first and foremost. The church technically serves the emperor first and foremost. The mechanicum technically serves the emperor first and foremost. What that actually means in practice is there's a lot of competing agendas from 'ultimate sources of authority', that rely on being the last man standing to win an argument if the gak really hits the ceiling. Intra-faction fighting does happen.

From memory, the badab war highlights the problem of going after a 'minor' chapter. The chapter in question was actually dirty, and politically 'weak' compared to say the big 9. But they called on their brother chapters for assistance, and a decent amount responded. Suddenly its not just everyone vs one rogue, small chapter. Its a big war, with everyone having to pick a side. And all this for a chapter that actually *was* doing the wrong thing.

Interesting thought.
Johnson was at war with his worlds spirit.
Khan, Russ, Even Magnus were at peace with theirs. Im not sure Baals was alive. Maybe just the death shriek, which sort of explains the rage.

The Inq can ask a Sm chapter nicely to do something.
They can tell him to smeg off if they want.
The Flesh Tearers made a snoopy Inq suffer the rage. Needless to say hes borked and his secondaries are quite pissed.

 Glasdir wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Glasdir wrote:

phillv85 wrote:
1. No, they're specialist Xeno killers. And as for if they're the only ones allowed on a hulk.... Space Hulk: Vengeance of the Blood Angels.... Space Hulk: Deathwing.

2. Yes

3. No

4. What? They're normal Dark Angels genes wise if that's what you mean.

5. Yes, in theory.... but good luck telling 1000 ceramite armoured killing machines to do something they don't want to

Only thing I'll correct there is that inquisitors are not able to command space marine chapters or contingents in any way.

By law yes they are. They have authority of Emperor with them so disobeying directly amounts to a treason.

But of course it's not as easy as that in practice if Inquisitor tries to order them stupidly. Marines can delay fullfilling and of course if they deem they can get away Inquisitor demanding help for personal vendetta could meet an "accident"

By law, no they can't, that was part of the aftermath of the Horus Heresy, in order to prevent such an event happening again everything in the Imperium was compartmentalized to prevent any individuals from having access to such a vast amount of power. No one has any command over a space marine chapter except the chapter master himself. Not even the High Lords of Terra have control over the space marine chapters, let alone some random inquisitor, whom, by the way command a lot less power than most people seem to think (think of them as having about the same amount of authority as a member of the CIA or MI5 and you're on the right track).
That's why chapters occasionally fall to chaos, because they are left relatively unchecked and because the only person able to issue orders to them is the chapter master. Because there is that lack of authority and orders being given by a higher power, some chapters just do what they please and become idle and to quote Dawn of War "heresy grows from idleness". Fortunately because they also have no authority over other chapters and departments of the Imperium they don't tend to drag anyone else down with them (Huron of course being an exception).

By law, yes they can, they can tell almost anyone in the Imperium what to do theoretically. The theory just goes out of the windows when a space marine chapter says no. They also have considerably more power than someone in MI5 or the CIA. They're based on the Catholic Inquisition which was supposed to carry the word of god.

No, they can’t. Read my post again. I know what they are based upon but they don’t have that kind of authority. Space marines are based upon monks and knights and sisters of battle are based upon nuns, yet both have far more power and authority than their real life counterparts. Let’s not get into making comparisons to real life because that’s where assumptions get made that are usually wrong.

But they have far more authority than mi5 or cia. We're talking about a group of individuals who can each order the deaths of billions without oversight.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
But they have far more authority than mi5 or cia. We're talking about a group of individuals who can each order the deaths of billions without oversight.

That hardly ever happens though and even then lower ranking inquisitors have to report back to higher ranking inquisitors to get permission. The average inquisitor probably never actually orders an exterminatus or any similar such thing within their lifetime. An exterminatus is very rare in 40k despite what people believe, the only reason we think they are common is because that's what the books focus on. Peacetime and minor events don't tend to make for good stories so they don't get written about, thus creating this disproportionate view that some people have.

The Deathwatch are solely tasked to deal with space hulks. I.e. if your in a space hulk, your either lost or in the watch.
Nope.

Deathwatch and Deathwing are entirely separate (apart from the possibility of asking a Deathwing member to be part of the Deathwatch).
Yep.

Any action on a hulk will entail an inquisitor from the ordo xenos (in command or otherwise involved, not in combat).
Nope.

The Deathwing are made up from elites with original protogenes.
Not really sure what this is claiming. They're the first company of the Dark Angels chapter, comprising chapter veterans in much the same way as other SM chapters.

An inquisitor is able to command space marine chapters.
Yes, theoretically. But Marine Chapters (and, more specifically, Chapter Masters) are pretty much the only organisations within the Imperium with the ability *or* the inclination to tell an Inquisitor making demands of them to do one. An Inquisitor with any level of diplomatic nous would be more likely to *request*, rather than *demand* the assistance of a Space Marine Chapter. Theoretically the Inquisitor has the authority to do the latter, but would you want to try and force an autonomous army of c. 1,000 genetically-engineered space-mentals to do something they didn't fancy?

Perhaps it would be helpful to clarify some terms and cite some sources.

First off, let me say that for me, the only sources that matter are GW published gaming resources. For me, this discussion isn't based on novels, forgeworld dexes, analogies to the real world or my own feelings. All of those things are valid, and they add nuance to the universe of 40k, but they tend to describe exceptions to the way Imperial governance works rather than the way it works on the 999,999 worlds that aren't the subject of the novel. For me, rulebook cannon trumps fiction; if you don't agree with that premise, feel free to disregard the rest of this post, because I haven't read a whole lot of GW fiction, and I certainly can't argue my point based on that body of work.

Furthermore, I didn't check every edition of the rules because the sources aren't quick to hand. But for my money, the golden age of the Inquisition was the old Witch Hunters dex (3rd edition? 4rth?)

Here's page 2: "Such is the power wielded by an Inquisitor that he can call on every branch of the armed forces and none can refuse his call. Even the Space Marines may be called upon to aid an Inquisitor should the threat be greater than he and any locally requisitioned forces are able to counter."

At that point in GW's history, I think it's pretty clear that the Inquisition had the legal authority to compel even a Space Marine chapter to serve their needs. You can weasel out on grammar by claiming the "none can refuse his call" part doesn't appear in the same sentence as the words "Space Marines," but the intent is pretty obvious.

As previously mentioned, the Greyknights in at least some versions of the game are explicitly the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus and the Deathwatch are explicitly the Chamber Miltant of the Ordo Xenos, and as such, cannot refuse their respective Masters.

That's golden age cannon- you have to go outside rulebooks to find anything that can contradict that.

Now if we advance to the present, it is true that GW has blurred the lines a bit in the most recent edition; the language isn't quite as explicit. Here are two quotes from Index: Imperium 2.

#1: "No one, save the Emperor himself, is beyond the scrutiny and judgement of the Inquisition."

Now true, this doesn't state explicitly that the Inquisition can command, only that they can scrutinize and judge.

The point here is that no one, save another Inquisitor, has the power to do the same to them:

#2: "the Inquisition is bound by no authority save its own."

Similarly, you can say Exterminatus is rare, but it does happen, and the Inquisition (I think) are the only ones that can order it- Space Marine Chapters cannot.

Still not satisfied?

This is a big one:

"It is even more common for the Inquisition to enlist the aid of any number of military branches of the Imperium, such as the Astra Militarum and the Adeptus Astartes. Many Ordos are strongly connected to certain branches, but the galaxy is vast and warp travel is haphazzard, so often an Inquisitor will be forced to muster whatever forces can be reached in time. In some circumstances, and Inquisitor will temporarily assume command of an army while in other situations, he will merely be attached to other Imperial forces while conducting their own investigations."

Again, it doesn't explicitly state they can command an entire chapter, but there is something to be said about the preponderance of canonical evidence, agreed?

Even if not, where does it state that a Space Marine chapter (or the Custodes) has the authority summon and enlist the aid of any branch of the Military, let alone the Inquisition?

The power balance here is blatantly obvious.

The 8th ed nixes any explicit reference to the Deathwatch as a Chamber militant (though it does cite a strong relationship). The do refer to the Greyknights as Chaber Militant, but they follow that by saying they often fight under a dual command structure. (I haven't read either of their dexes though)

To address the Guilliman issue, yeah, he's probably above the reach of the Inquisition given his role as the figurehead of the crusade against chaos that followed the formation of the rift. If they were in an army together as part of that crusade, he would definitely be the commander. But if he lead an unexplained attack against the Imperial fortress on Terra, I think it's safe to say the Inquisition would play a key role in rallying the vast majority of Imperials against him, with the exception of the Ultramarines and likely, their successor chapters.

Finally, the CIA comparison was WAAAYY off (sorry to be a dick). An organization with even theoretical power to destroy a planet bears absolutely no resemblance to an organization which lacks the power to declare war or launch even a single nuclear missile. An while rare, Exterminatus occurs often enough that it is more than merely theoretical.