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jcd386 wrote:
I think making it so you can only pick your warlord from your largest detachment, and only gaining CP from detachments that match your warlord's faction would be a solid fix for the CP / allies issue.

Assuming they aren't going to make detailed rules changes, points costs for infantry need to go down for elite infantry and up for chaff.

Some general points increases should be made based on the following:
4++ or better invul saves need to cost more, especially on large vehicles. 5++ saves should be valued less, especially on infantry with good armor saves ie terminators.
2+ and 3+ armor saves need to be valued less.
2W infantry need to be valued less.

And specific rules changes id llike to see in addition to points reductions:

Chaos Marines should be able to take bolters, chainswords, and pistols.
Rhinos should have two fire points again
All power armor and Terminator armor squad units in elite slots should get BS/WS2+.
Flamers, melta and grav need to be buffed/changed. Grav could be assault 2, melta could do 3 damage to vehicles on a damage roll of 1, 2 or 3, and flamers could have unlimited range and ignore LoS during overwatch, and do 2d6 hits, with a hits per model max of 1 to 1 (or 2 or 3 to 1 for the bigger flamers).
OC Plasma needs to do mortal wounds so it isn't killing razorbacks or characters, but should always do a mortal wound on a 1 before any rerolls. You can reroll it and apply the result, but you still take the MW.

Something like that.

Yes, yes and yes! Only Astartes flamers? I think they're okayish atm. Maybe range increase but not much else imo. The rest all agreed, this is the realistic approach to changing Astartes

 Draco765 wrote:

Well, technically his staff would be considered an artifact, one that he automatically gets without using up the artifact for the rest of the army, so maybe ignore #4.

But that's the thing - he's supposed to be a collector of artefacts - not just a guy who owns a single artefact.

 Draco765 wrote:

The only issue with the any character fighting bonuses is the problem of getting characters to fight each other. Most armies hide their characters now because their bonuses are worth more than their combat abilities.

Yeah, it was meant as a flavour rule more than a power one.

 pique311 wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
I think making it so you can only pick your warlord from your largest detachment, and only gaining CP from detachments that match your warlord's faction would be a solid fix for the CP / allies issue.

Assuming they aren't going to make detailed rules changes, points costs for infantry need to go down for elite infantry and up for chaff.

Some general points increases should be made based on the following:
4++ or better invul saves need to cost more, especially on large vehicles. 5++ saves should be valued less, especially on infantry with good armor saves ie terminators.
2+ and 3+ armor saves need to be valued less.
2W infantry need to be valued less.

And specific rules changes id llike to see in addition to points reductions:

Chaos Marines should be able to take bolters, chainswords, and pistols.
Rhinos should have two fire points again
All power armor and Terminator armor squad units in elite slots should get BS/WS2+.
Flamers, melta and grav need to be buffed/changed. Grav could be assault 2, melta could do 3 damage to vehicles on a damage roll of 1, 2 or 3, and flamers could have unlimited range and ignore LoS during overwatch, and do 2d6 hits, with a hits per model max of 1 to 1 (or 2 or 3 to 1 for the bigger flamers).
OC Plasma needs to do mortal wounds so it isn't killing razorbacks or characters, but should always do a mortal wound on a 1 before any rerolls. You can reroll it and apply the result, but you still take the MW.

Something like that.

Yes, yes and yes! Only Astartes flamers? I think they're okayish atm. Maybe range increase but not much else imo. The rest all agreed, this is the realistic approach to changing Astartes

Well no I think all flamers should be like that. I just play imperium so those are my examples.

I don't know if it's possible to have all weapons be perfectly balanced, but I'd love for them all to be good at their specific jobs.

I wish flamers were 10" range.

1. Adding Admech keyword compatibility to any Imperium transport out there. Ruststalkers have very limited (close to none) sense without a transportation. Eletro-priests alike - currently they are hard-wired into a single effective (if you go first) tactic which is a Stygies stratagem infiltration. For such a short codex as Admech's a further limitation of the options is not a smart balancing move me thinks.
2. Servitors from elites section are nowhere worth the points they're at now, or being elites in the first place - WS/BS5+ unit (needing a Tech-priest nearby to improve both to 4+). They either need a solid buff in stats to 3+ when a Tech-priest is nearby, or a solid points drop (but what is costly in servitors are the weapons as a bare servitor is 2pts... and droping him to 0 wouldn't be nearly enough). 4 models cap in a servitor unit nails the coffin.
3. Skitarii HQ - yeah right, I know. One can dream.

All
flamers 9"
Sniper rifle -1pt
Melta -2pt
Non-sword power weapons -1pt
Servitors need a massive point decrease make the servo arm cheap or change it so you can just take heavy weapons

Admech
Kataphron-10pts
3pt off ruststalkers/infiltrators
+1 dam to arc weaponry
Restore 7th edition phosperous rule
Fix master of machines so can repair imperial vehicles
1pt off rangers/vanguard
Dunecrawler gain leamon russ grinding advance rule
Skirtarii detachments change HQ slots to optional

Sm
Sm 1pt of power armour infantry models 3 off terminator equivalent.
1 points off jump pack
Dreadnaughts -10pts

IQ
Inquisitors faction type to all imperium and may hq any imperial detatchment
Jokaero -5pts

Guard
Hwt 3-6 models per unit
Yarick -20pts (to help rebalance non catachans)

Fortifications
Occupying units grant BS via strategem
-pts = Wx2
Allow multi unit occupancy like transports

Custodes
Jetbikes +5pts

Remove the command pt increase added to battalion

Wish list tier:

Tau Crisis suits down 10 points a model, to make them competitive with other units in that codex.

Grey Knights get access to a second psychic discipline.

Cap hit modifiers on a model at -2. Attackers can still add further minuses from movement, power fists, etc.

Don't know if there's a Ynnari codex yet, but if there is, something in it will probably be broken. Just saying.

More realistic tier:

Give Grey Knight characters big boy Smite. Other Grey Knights get 1 mortal wound, but standard range.

Point drops to Grey Knight units across the board, as a band-aid fix to buff that codex into something closer to viability.

Go through and re-point Forge World units to match their codex equivalents. E.g. balancing index FW Knights to current codex Knights points values, index Hammerheads to codex Hammerheads, maybe even fix that stupid Hellhound that's randomly undercosted, etc.

Something for Renegade Knights.

Guaranteed tier:

Nerf Guilliman, as is tradition.

In full seriousness i think these will happen, i play mostly Xenos and SoB

Drukhari
Ravager +5pts
Dissie Cannon +5pts
Grotesques +1-2pts
Talos +10pts

Harlequins If the faqs coming out already doesnt
Suit of Knives, changed to "Unmodified rolls of 1"
Note, for those that dont know, it treats all melee attacks against the Troupe Master like Plasma rule (hits of 1 does a MW, but with an added rule, for ever 1, you need to roll a 2+ to actually do the MW), but Harlequins can make you -2 to hit easily, -3 most the time, and -4 to hit sometimes, meaning if you are -2 to hit, and you normally are a 3+ to hit, rolls of 1, 2, and 3 you take a MW on a 2+ and you only hit on a 5+, it is easy to get -3, that means 50% the time you are taking a MW and only hitting on 6+, 1 80pt character with a power and a stratagem or 2 could kill off a full unit of 30 man Boyz without attacking

Custodes
Shield Capt on Dawneagle +10-20pts
Bikes + 5-10pts

Dreadknoughs
-25pts on all

New missions and fortifications

I for one find it ridiculous that I have to manage Warlord Traits, Chapter Traits, Command Points, and Stratagems. It's like a bunch of people at GW were throwing out ideas in a meeting, trying to decide what game mechanic they were going to do with, when someone wearing a big hat said "Screw it, it's late. We'll use ALL the ideas. Just as long as the Force Org chart gets thrown out the window."

Wishlisting but I think a universal stratagem for all armies to have some sort of access to deny the witch would be welcome.
Maybe another universal stratagem that is one use only, and nullifies a single mortal wound per game. That way you at least feel like you have some kind of recourse in your back pocket.
The thing that bothers me about mortal wounds is gameplay wise often your opponent just rolls dice and you have no way to interact with the outcome. It doesn't feel strategic or fun without at least some options to choose from.

DarthDiggler wrote:
And for Gods sake remove the heretic astartes keyword from cultists. They are not astartes and should not get to use veterans of the long war.

I certainly agree with this. In general I don’t think cultists should have the <Legion> keyword either. The ability to flood the board with cultists is really silly.

That said, the CSM book is a total mess all-round. It feels harsh to pick on one element that’s too good when so much is not good enough. But actually both are because of thoughtless design and both need fixing.

Poor old GKs need an urgent fix. I think CSM need it almost as much. It’s not that their book is useless, it’s that the decent armies you can make bear no relation to how the army is supposed to look.

Actually I would argue that a few lords and chaos spacemarines and demon engines with a mass of cultists is actually more fluffy than pure choas spacemarine armies.

But yes cultist need a reworking they should be a mass of cheap bodies bit without the legion and hertic astartes keywords.

Also all the early power armour codex's need some love to address the internal and external balance inconsistency.

What I hope for:

- A general points reduction on most/all SM units. A lot of these could do with a 15-25% points reduction.
- Some Stratagems and new rules to help them out a bit.
- Open up the Vehicle design rules for Matched play and more vehicles like Predators, Storm ravens, Razorbacks etc.

What I expect:

- More fluff and gak for missions that I will most likely have no interest in.
- Points increases because GW

Gunrunner1775 wrote:
I can only speak to the issues in the meta in my local gameing area

1) total and complete elimination of CP regeneration
2) buff small elite armies so that the WL gives them X amount of CP (similar to Calgar / Girlyman buff that increases CP) so that they start out with a "reasonable" amount of CP
--- The increase in CP that went live last FAQ, was nice, but bit much when factoring in the CP regen abilities

3) fix las-cannon spam (or any type of anti-tank weapon spam) ..even with the rule of 3, the sheer quantity of las-cannons deployed has resulted in almost no one useing any sort of vehicles, its all foot sloggin infantry nowadays for the most part (there are the rare exceptions )
- increase cost of las-cannons to 35 points or change the stats (something like, las-cannon does d3 wounds, on 6+ to wound does d6 wounds perhaps?) various ideas have been tossed around here, but no one can come up with a solid plan on how to fix this issue

Damn, I wish I played in this meta. Lascannons get butchered by dark eldar and Harlequins.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dadamowsky wrote:
1. Adding Admech keyword compatibility to any Imperium transport out there. Ruststalkers have very limited (close to none) sense without a transportation. Eletro-priests alike - currently they are hard-wired into a single effective (if you go first) tactic which is a Stygies stratagem infiltration. For such a short codex as Admech's a further limitation of the options is not a smart balancing move me thinks.
2. Servitors from elites section are nowhere worth the points they're at now, or being elites in the first place - WS/BS5+ unit (needing a Tech-priest nearby to improve both to 4+). They either need a solid buff in stats to 3+ when a Tech-priest is nearby, or a solid points drop (but what is costly in servitors are the weapons as a bare servitor is 2pts... and droping him to 0 wouldn't be nearly enough). 4 models cap in a servitor unit nails the coffin.
3. Skitarii HQ - yeah right, I know. One can dream.

The worst part is I own an Admech transport. Ive legitimately graduated college started a career and gotten married in the time it's taken FW to give it 40k rules.

For CSM :
- Remove the "Legion" keyworld" for cultist, but make a rule that they dont remove the Legion bonus of a detachment (like Cypher and Fabius Bile).

- Can Lucius the Eternal get at least the same invu than a regular chaos lord ?

- Give a +2 bonus for the charge roll of a jetpack unit coming from deepstrike (because : jetpack) for CSM et SM units.

- Give Daemonic machinae spirit for all the.. demonic engine (Defiler, Forgefiends, Heldrake) and give them either the Legion bonus or their God bonus.

- Give the same damn rule of the webmay gate to the loyalist Drop pod.

- Change the word bearer legion tactics ?

with the exception of plasma pistols, I personally have all but stoped takeing plasma guns/cannons with my marines in favor of las-cannons

now if all plasma was boosted by +1 damage (2 damage base, 3 damage overcharge) I might reconsider, combine with a points increase in las-cannons as suggested befor

the meta in your area might be different, so take this suggestion with some salt

Command points is a HUGE issue in some areas and needs a complete review, many suggestions seem good, everyone should come up with ideas and play test those in your gameing groups and post the results... play LOTS of games with those theoretical rules, not just one or two..discuss / modify / rinse and repeat

--- I like the ideas of pure armies getting a bonus CP
--- I like the ideas of the total complete removal of all CP regeneration, and replace with small bonus to CP for those WL traits / relics what not that previously gave CP regeneration
--- I like the idea that "allied" detachments can only spend CP on the stratagems from the base rule book and not their codex (so command re-roll, auto pass moral , melee interupt ONLY )

Mandragola wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:
And for Gods sake remove the heretic astartes keyword from cultists. They are not astartes and should not get to use veterans of the long war.

I certainly agree with this. In general I don’t think cultists should have the <Legion> keyword either. The ability to flood the board with cultists is really silly.

That said, the CSM book is a total mess all-round. It feels harsh to pick on one element that’s too good when so much is not good enough. But actually both are because of thoughtless design and both need fixing.

Poor old GKs need an urgent fix. I think CSM need it almost as much. It’s not that their book is useless, it’s that the decent armies you can make near no relation to how the army is supposed to look.

Yeah, I have to agree with this. If cultists are to be nerfed again, something has to be done about the other 95 percent of the codex that is worthless. All the cult units, all the daemon engines, tactical marines, overcosted transports.

Caederes wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:

New Knights need that Lance rule FAQed out of existence or made into a carrot rather than a stick.

Lance rule?

Only getting Command Points for Super-heavy Detachments if they include any combination of three or more Dominus and Questoris class Knights. There are parts of the actual codex that specifically state such a detachment with three Knights, one being an Armiger, would receive the usual three Command Points for the detachment, yet the rules contradict that. Warhammer Community also stated one of the great things about Armigers was that they generate cheaper Command Points for Imperial Knight armies....which the Knight Lance rule exposes as a mistake. There's a blatant disconnect between the rules writers and everyone else involved in both the making of the codex and their media team, apparently.

It's also a change from the Chapter Approved rules, which gave you a free character for having any Super-Heavy Detachment with only Questor Imperialis or Mechanicus models in it, which is what we were promised with Armigers.

Gunrunner1775 wrote:
with the exception of plasma pistols, I personally have all but stoped takeing plasma guns/cannons with my marines in favor of las-cannons

now if all plasma was boosted by +1 damage (2 damage base, 3 damage overcharge) I might reconsider, combine with a points increase in las-cannons as suggested befor

the meta in your area might be different, so take this suggestion with some salt

Command points is a HUGE issue in some areas and needs a complete review, many suggestions seem good, everyone should come up with ideas and play test those in your gameing groups and post the results... play LOTS of games with those theoretical rules, not just one or two..discuss / modify / rinse and repeat

--- I like the ideas of pure armies getting a bonus CP
--- I like the ideas of the total complete removal of all CP regeneration, and replace with small bonus to CP for those WL traits / relics what not that previously gave CP regeneration
--- I like the idea that "allied" detachments can only spend CP on the stratagems from the base rule book and not their codex (so command re-roll, auto pass moral , melee interupt ONLY )

Just no guard is strong enough without a plasma boost and plasma is there optimal weapon. Sure its not the optimal for SM but you have higher BS so your make more out of the more expensive weapons.

While I dislike the concept of CP Few players at matched play events want to go back to mono faction armies maybe in open play I don't see why pure faction lists should get preferential treatment as they already have it via synergy boosts e.g. (Character bubbles almost all only effect units of that faction. Guard can't order SM units etc. Reducing CP iin battallions is probably enough

What do I expect from Chapter Approved 2018 (in December of 2018)?
* More Scenerios
* Beta Sister of Battle Rules
* Publishing of the Official Rules Updates for Matched Play
* Absolutely no other army specific rules, because those will be in the FAQ/Errata documents, with possible exceptions for updates on Assassin, Inquisitor, and Sisters of Silence detachments for Matched Play
* Possibly updates to Battleforged army creation, possibly only for Matched and/or Tournament Play
* Modest Matched Play Points updates

What do we need? In addition to everything above:
* Complete rebalancing of Matched Play Points for every Codex with complete printing of all Points Values for every Codex for one-stop shopping

Points changes should be downloadable PDF content instead of purchase of a new book and attached to the individual army FAQ's that are on the official website

 DreamIsCollapsing wrote:
For CSM :
- Remove the "Legion" keyworld" for cultist, but make a rule that they dont remove the Legion bonus of a detachment (like Cypher and Fabius Bile).

So remove Cultists from the meta entirely? Seems a little overkill after the Tide nerf.

- Kyribdis needs a point drop; whoever thought it needed to be the same cost as a Land Raider doesn't understand what a Land Raider brings to the table beyond the metal hawks part of it.
- Blood Slaughterers and Maulerfiends need a very slight point drop as well. When a double chainclaw Contemptor is 163 points and a Blood Slaughterer is 180 points something is wrong. I feel like they kind of understand this, hence the Contemptor point drop in the first place, but they need to keep going. Dedicated melee units across the board need point reductions.
- Hellwrights should buff Daemon Engines in addition to Hellforged units they already buff.
- Zhufor needs to buff World Eaters. He's a great unit but the fact his aura is selfish pushes me away.
- Fix the PL of all the FW units. No idea why this wasn't addressed last CA. It's annoying me I can't deep strike Uraka for 1 CP because his PL is still 9.
- For the love of all that is holy please buff Renegades and Heretics in some way shape or form. Give us Stratagems and relics. Give us unique characters. Give us SOMETHING to make taking them worth SOMETHING. Right now it's just a complete waste of points.
- Possessed need a point drop. I think their stats are fine though if they were Toughness 5 I'd be fine with their current point cost and they'd have a role as shock troops.
- Chosen need a role. I'm fine with their points just give them some kind of special rule or something to make them unique. Maybe something like, "Declare an Ally Character of the same Legion at the start of the game. As long as the Chosen unit is within 6 inches of that Character, they have a 5++." Suddenly Chosen are the elite bodyguards they've always wanted to be.
- Further reduce the point cost of Kharn OR increase his movement speed. He should not cost as much as a Daemon Prince. Also give Kharn back his increased psykic defense.
- More Stratagems, Relics, Powers, and special rules for the legions without codex releases.
- Quality of life change like more CP if your army is mono-god would also help a lot.

I want to deepstrike stormboyz. They are jump troops after all.

If we're talking purely changes for the health of the game...

- CP is locked to detachment that generated it, and no free 3 CP at base. So if I have a guard battalion, an admech Battalion, and a Knight detachment, the guard get 5, the admech get 5, and the knights get 3. That's it, 13CP, do not pass go, do not collect your free 3 CP at base, if your IG company commander generates 5 free CP over the course of the game, awesome, only the IG can use it.

- Warlord locked to the "dominant" detachment, be that by points or PL I don't care. A guard company commander is not leading a force of friggin custodes, Imperial Knights, Space Marines, or really anything other than a pretty much pure IG and maybe some Admech or Sisters. If you want to go for the gold even in a pure army the Warlord must be in the biggest detachment, but I'd honestly be fine with it just being considered by faction.

- Pure armies where every model in the army shares the dominant keyword (aka a pure Ultramarines army with 0 allies, or a guard list that is 100% Cadians and the allowed exceptions like commissars) get the free 3 CP base that we traditionally start with now.

- Plasma only cooks off on a natural roll of a 1, but always does the mortal wound BEFORE the reroll. Part of what makes plasma so insane is that there are so many ways to ignore the 1's and make it where it's pretty much a no brainer to overcharge. Bam, you've given plasma an actual downside for once that actually comes up in every game and doesn't lead to a guardsman killing himself 66% of the time he shoots at an Eldar flyer.

- Limit of one roll to generate CP each time you have a chance to do so, just like "Feel No Pain" is treated now. You shouldn't have two chances to regen a CP off of a single enemy strategem or your own.

- Shooting and CQC (if there is some way to debuff CQC hit chance) will always hit at worst on a natural 6. I don't get why we have everything able to wound everything now but there are instances where it's literally impossible to hit your target.



That little list does a lot to curb in shenanigans across the board, and puts mono codex armies like Tau and Orks on a much more even playing field. May not fix everything but it'd fix most.

U02dah4 wrote:

Spoiler:

Gunrunner1775 wrote:
with the exception of plasma pistols, I personally have all but stoped takeing plasma guns/cannons with my marines in favor of las-cannons

now if all plasma was boosted by +1 damage (2 damage base, 3 damage overcharge) I might reconsider, combine with a points increase in las-cannons as suggested befor

the meta in your area might be different, so take this suggestion with some salt

Command points is a HUGE issue in some areas and needs a complete review, many suggestions seem good, everyone should come up with ideas and play test those in your gameing groups and post the results... play LOTS of games with those theoretical rules, not just one or two..discuss / modify / rinse and repeat

--- I like the ideas of pure armies getting a bonus CP
--- I like the ideas of the total complete removal of all CP regeneration, and replace with small bonus to CP for those WL traits / relics what not that previously gave CP regeneration
--- I like the idea that "allied" detachments can only spend CP on the stratagems from the base rule book and not their codex (so command re-roll, auto pass moral , melee interupt ONLY )

Just no guard is strong enough without a plasma boost and plasma is there optimal weapon. Sure its not the optimal for SM but you have higher BS so your make more out of the more expensive weapons.

While I dislike the concept of CP Few players at matched play events want to go back to mono faction armies maybe in open play I don't see why pure faction lists should get preferential treatment as they already have it via synergy boosts e.g. (Character bubbles almost all only effect units of that faction. Guard can't order SM units etc. Reducing CP iin battallions is probably enough

The idea is that for example a Tyranid list with Kronos and Leviathan detachments would get less CP than say a mono-Kraken army. Essentially trying to curb players just using multiple factions together into a single force by way of rewarding mono-faction armies. Allies could probably count for same-faction bonus, because of course Imperium armies need the help. /s

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
- Plasma only cooks off on a natural roll of a 1, but always does the mortal wound BEFORE the reroll.

No. Just no.

phydaux wrote:
I for one find it ridiculous that I have to manage Warlord Traits, Chapter Traits, Command Points, and Stratagems. It's like a bunch of people at GW were throwing out ideas in a meeting, trying to decide what game mechanic they were going to do with, when someone wearing a big hat said "Screw it, it's late. We'll use ALL the ideas. Just as long as the Force Org chart gets thrown out the window."

Those are all some of my favorite things about 8th edition XD

To me, those are the options that let you represent the flavor of your army mechanically. Choosing traits, tactics, etc. feels the same way choosing abilities for an RPG character does. Sure, you could represent your force through unit or weapon selection before, but that usually just boiled down to, "My faction is the <insert unit here> faction."

Personally, I don't feel like I have to "manage" traits or tactics most of the time. Generally, it's just a matter of remembering which easy-to-resolve modifier or ability I have. Alaitoc attribute? You'r eat -1 to hit me if you're not up close. Red Grief warlord trait? I save on a 3+ instead of a 4+. A I choose which of those options I take during list creation, I find them no more difficult to manage than remembering which gear I gave a sergeant or which combat drugs my wyches have.

Eldar Wraithknights need a massive points drop. They were more expensive and weaker than IKs before the codex drop. Now they are laughably poor by comparison.

Dante needs either a significant points cut or a serious buff. The guy is supposed to be the one person Gulliman considers close to an equal, the guy he made his regent in Imperium Nihilus. What does he get for his hefty price tag? A moderately competent beat stick and no special rule beyond the generic Chapter Master gaff. No wonder everyone runs Captain Smash instead.

I like how most the CP changes in this thread just screw over elite armies, particularly Custodes, with nary a care from the proposers.

Anyway, the changes I think they should make are like 20 pages long. The big issues are fixing Grey Knights, keeping allies in and flexible and increasing CP generation of elite armies.

 vipoid wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
- Plasma only cooks off on a natural roll of a 1, but always does the mortal wound BEFORE the reroll.

No. Just no.

All people that propose that just doesn't understand, that change would kill plasma for anybody that wasnt Imperial Guard. Chaos Terminator or Marines exploding 16% of the time they are overcharging is just non viable.