Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ice_can wrote:
The thing is actually getting all those powers to stack on one DP is something a number of armies can interact with so a key deny here or there and not today DP. Its on 1 DP the rest as just normal DP and with some manovering can be removed amd one those DP start dying the psychic shenanigans drops off aswell. Shield captains are 0 interaction perma PITA units.

The robe is a relic just like the captains relic bike. Both are 4++ without them. Psychic powers are just there to go above and beyond, and while they can all be blocked the prince is the one bringing the deny rolls to the table.

The 2++ is a stratagem that can't be blocked, and the princes battleforged bonus is also adding a locus of trickery to it's 2++ (aka 'rolls of 6 miss me this phase'). Make him your warlord and he's knocking damage against him down by 1 per hit as well - they really are tough little daemons.

The difference is that in 8th you can have one model with a 2++, where in previous editions entire units would be hiding behind 2++ re-roll-able characters, or even could get those saves on the entire unit.

Most 2++ saves are fueled by CP, even imperial armies don't have unlimited amounts of those.

Last, but not least, mortal wounds are fine counter to those saves. Two psykers smiting the offender will eventually kill whatever is sporting the 2++ safe, and there are things which reduce/ignore/take away invulenerable saves.

It really doesn't feel like 2++ (3++ +1) is a problem this edition.

Well there is also the fact that if you are going to buff something up - why would you pick a DP over a LOC? Plus you can only really buff 1 unit hard in daemons. While 3 custode jetbike captains can all have 3++ saves with no counters.

I do it to a LOC personally. With -1 damage warlord trait and a 3++(impossible robe) that I can make a 2++. On a LOC it a lot tougher to kill. I still wouldn't rate ether unit nearly as high as a custode jetbike captain.

Only 2 bike captains can have the 3++s (eagle eye and auric). Neither of them can be 2++ or have any way of getting further buffed (tzeentch has some awesome buffing powers).

Again, they are very similar units but people for some reason fixate on the captains being OP while the tzeentch princes seem to fly under the radar.

bananathug wrote:
Only 2 bike captains can have the 3++s (eagle eye and auric). Neither of them can be 2++ or have any way of getting further buffed (tzeentch has some awesome buffing powers).

Again, they are very similar units but people for some reason fixate on the captains being OP while the tzeentch princes seem to fly under the radar.

They certainly don't fly under the radar - they are in every TS or daemon list. I typically bring 2 of them. They just aren't quite as good. They certainly belong in the top 20. Out of the 20 in the top 20 people voted for. Clear 2 units don't belong (Guilliman and Necron destroyers) I would in no particular order throw up doomsday arcs and DP in their place.

 Xenomancers wrote:
They just aren't quite as good.

Out of curiosity what puts the bikers above them for you? The bolters vs smite, 2+ armour vs 2++ stratagem, the more attacking stratagems of the custodes?

A.T. wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
They just aren't quite as good.

Out of curiosity what puts the bikers above them for you? The bolters vs smite, 2+ armour vs 2++ stratagem, the more attacking stratagems of the custodes?

Cheaper and better shooting attack would be my main reasons why the biker is preferable. Another reason is access to cheaper command points and CP farm.

Again - I totally agree that a 3 DP TS supreme command is equally cheesy. Possibly better in some situations too. They have access to some really nice powers.

Isn't that like saying the Vindicator is better than the Night Spinner because it has access to cheaper command points and CP farm?

Bharring wrote:
Isn't that like saying the Vindicator is better than the Night Spinner because it has access to cheaper command points and CP farm?

Not sure how that is a valid comparison. Mainly because the vindi and night spinner do not benifit from CP in any way. Both the 2 units above get a great deal out of them.

BA captain hammer is literally only awesome when he steals like 7 CP from the rest of your army, and due to the nature of stratagems and relics, spamming him does not work well. It’s apparent plenty of people don’t take that into account.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
BA captain hammer is literally only awesome when he steals like 7 CP from the rest of your army, and due to the nature of stratagems and relics, spamming him does not work well. It’s apparent plenty of people don’t take that into account.

He might not be repeatable but watching a 160 point captain smash 600 to 1000 points LoW in a single round of combat is insane returns for those 7CP given the poor standard of marine strategums.

Berserkers are pretty mean for their cost. With access to VotLW and the ability to attack three times in a round, there's very little that they can't kill.