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Process wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

Process wrote:
The formula for these boxes is awesome- Nice HQ model, standard troop choice and a larger show piece model.

The only people who would want to start an eldar army with this box would be illiadan players.

Can you not use wraiths in other eldar armies?

You can. But they are only central to the theme of one craftworld. Most Eldar players are going to want to have their army core based around non-wraith units. Thematically, they are anti-eldar. Slow and tough units in an army who’s central theme is fast and fragile. If you are drawn to the army, odds are it’s for the lithe warriors sprinting across the battlefield, or the bikes and grav tanks zooming across the skies. Not the slow, plodding wraiths.

So for a new player (barring Illydan) no units in the box are likely to match the things that drew you to the army. They make a great complement to a “classic” eldar army. And anvil to smash your foes upon with the swift hammer of the rest of your army. But starting out? Not so much.

IMHO, YMMV, Etc...

Recently bought the Tau SC box. Very happy with its contents and have already incorporated it into a 1k list I want to run. Should work pretty well with the pie in the sky 2k list I have in mind as well.

The Drukhari (Wyches) Start Collecting box is not too bad, assuming you want to take Wyches! You get about 300 points of stuff. More importantly, its a playable Patrol detachment right out of the box (HQ, Troops, Fast Attack plus a Transport). With two boxes you have a solid (if Wyches can be called that) Battalion. I think that it meets the intent of the Start Collecting boxes well as well as having things inside that you don't mind having multiples of.

I'm sure a Haemonculus Start Collecting box would do well if they made one. They could probably fit a playable Coven Patrol detachment in there (Haemonculus, Wracks and a Talos maybe?)

Process wrote:
Seems people are mistaking the "start COLLECTING" boxes for "start WAAC neckbearding" boxes.

The formula for these boxes is awesome- Nice HQ model, standard troop choice and a larger show piece model.

If you have to pull a calculator out to mathhammer a SC box.... it isn't for you, if you determine that the tau box isn't good value because crisis suits aren't "points efficient"..... it isn't for you.

Seriously, you could have a good game with any 2 of these boxes, including the guard box.

Some of you guys would probably have the SC guard box as 50 conscripts..... What a great intro to the HOBBY (not game)

Ok, for for whom is it good Any new player is going to be unhappy to hear that the models they just bought suck, and that they can now after spending 200-300$ start buying the real thing.

they'd need an HQ in plastic. they have Voldus but I'm not sure GW's ever put a special character in a start collecting box.

I hope they will make one soon, and them make a starter set and fix the GK codex. It is beyond my understanding how they are making clown elfs, emo elfs, ranger elfs and give them a ton of models, when they don't need them, and leave other factions with nothing.

Karol wrote:

Ok, for for whom is it good Any new player is going to be unhappy to hear that the models they just bought suck, and that they can now after spending 200-300$ start buying the real thing.

Suck according to who?
Whiny individuals on forums and social media who view the game as an ego boost?
Or actual gamers?

For the GK all they need to do is put in a Terminator and he can be either a brother-captain or a grandmaster or even a librarian. The bigger issue would be putting in a heavy unit. You would have to choose either a Landraider or a Dreadknight or a Purgation squad. I seriously doubt that they would put in either vehicle and the Purgation squad is just a varient use of the strike squad sprue.

Karol wrote:

Process wrote:

they'd need an HQ in plastic. they have Voldus but I'm not sure GW's ever put a special character in a start collecting box.

I hope they will make one soon, and them make a starter set and fix the GK codex. It is beyond my understanding how they are making clown elfs, emo elfs, ranger elfs and give them a ton of models, when they don't need them, and leave other factions with nothing.

But does the game really need more marine models? I agree that the GKCodex needs work(and of course a plastic HQ for a Start Collecting! would be great), but right now their niche of Elite SM army is filled by Custodes. They need an overhaul to be more like the Deathwatch, but for Chaos.

 Sinful Hero wrote:

Karol wrote:

Process wrote:

they'd need an HQ in plastic. they have Voldus but I'm not sure GW's ever put a special character in a start collecting box.

I hope they will make one soon, and them make a starter set and fix the GK codex. It is beyond my understanding how they are making clown elfs, emo elfs, ranger elfs and give them a ton of models, when they don't need them, and leave other factions with nothing.

But does the game really need more marine models? I agree that the GKCodex needs work(and of course a plastic HQ for a Start Collecting! would be great), but right now their niche of Elite SM army is filled by Custodes. They need an overhaul to be more like the Deathwatch, but for Chaos.

Personally I'd shift them to a demon killing codex. Keep the Grey Knights as core but have Sisters of Silence and maybe some extra Ordo Malleus stuff as auxillaries.

Process wrote:Seems people are mistaking the "start COLLECTING" boxes for "start WAAC neckbearding" boxes.

The formula for these boxes is awesome- Nice HQ model, standard troop choice and a larger show piece model.

If you have to pull a calculator out to mathhammer a SC box.... it isn't for you, if you determine that the tau box isn't good value because crisis suits aren't "points efficient"..... it isn't for you.

Seriously, you could have a good game with any 2 of these boxes, including the guard box.

Some of you guys would probably have the SC guard box as 50 conscripts..... What a great intro to the HOBBY (not game)

You cannot play a game with a IG box against, well, anyone, unless you find someone willing to play 250 points.

The other boxes are all 500 points. If you want to start a Guard army, I generally recommend the defense force as your first stop. The SC box is worth so little points-wise that it's only really practical for expanding a collection. It's also not great value.
As I said, it should be a place for a prospective new player to enter the hobby. Some of them are, like the Necron one, or even the Space Marine one that gets you 2 tactical squads [remember, almost everyone else has 5-man infantry units] and a dreadnought.

Though it's obvious GW knows this, since the new Necron one comes with a squad of immortals and an extra HQ, and there's the Defense Force boxes that actually do give you an Imperial Guard starter force/

Ahh yes. The classic answer for 40k.
You can't play if you only spend £50. You need to spend £100!

ValentineGames wrote:
Ahh yes. The classic answer for 40k.
You can't play if you only spend £50. You need to spend £100!

Hah, when I first started I couldn't find anyone who was willing to play less than 1750 to 2000 points back during 6th edition. I basically got told to spend 3-4 hundred dollars to see if I even like the game.

ValentineGames wrote:
Ahh yes. The classic answer for 40k.
You can't play if you only spend £50. You need to spend £100!

This ts true, though. You can't play at $50. Minimum is probably around $150, and even then you'll have a hard time finding someone to play with.

That's why escalation leagues are a thing, otherwise it would be nearly impossible to start.

As I said, I think a marginally more expensive starter box, with a little bit more in it would be better.

Hatachi wrote:

ValentineGames wrote:
Ahh yes. The classic answer for 40k.
You can't play if you only spend £50. You need to spend £100!

Hah, when I first started I couldn't find anyone who was willing to play less than 1750 to 2000 points back during 6th edition. I basically got told to spend 3-4 hundred dollars to see if I even like the game.

Ahh yes. 6th. Dark times indeed. And the community has never recovered from it...at least those who didn't destroy the game...

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

ValentineGames wrote:
Ahh yes. The classic answer for 40k.
You can't play if you only spend £50. You need to spend £100!

This ts true, though. You can't play at $50. Minimum is probably around $150, and even then you'll have a hard time finding someone to play with.

That's why escalation leagues are a thing, otherwise it would be nearly impossible to start.

As I said, I think a marginally more expensive starter box, with a little bit more in it would be better.

Absolute nonsense.
If you want to play 40k with just the Start Collecting box you most assuredly can and it should be encouraged.
You don't tell little jonny "oh sorry loser. You've not spent the minimum amount required to play this game.
Come back when you're not a loser. Hahahaha"

What a disgusting attitude. No wonder this games dead.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Process wrote:Seems people are mistaking the "start COLLECTING" boxes for "start WAAC neckbearding" boxes.

The formula for these boxes is awesome- Nice HQ model, standard troop choice and a larger show piece model.

If you have to pull a calculator out to mathhammer a SC box.... it isn't for you, if you determine that the tau box isn't good value because crisis suits aren't "points efficient"..... it isn't for you.

Seriously, you could have a good game with any 2 of these boxes, including the guard box.

Some of you guys would probably have the SC guard box as 50 conscripts..... What a great intro to the HOBBY (not game)

You cannot play a game with a IG box against, well, anyone, unless you find someone willing to play 250 points.

The other boxes are all 500 points. If you want to start a Guard army, I generally recommend the defense force as your first stop. The SC box is worth so little points-wise that it's only really practical for expanding a collection. It's also not great value.
As I said, it should be a place for a prospective new player to enter the hobby. Some of them are, like the Necron one, or even the Space Marine one that gets you 2 tactical squads [remember, almost everyone else has 5-man infantry units] and a dreadnought.

Though it's obvious GW knows this, since the new Necron one comes with a squad of immortals and an extra HQ, and there's the Defense Force boxes that actually do give you an Imperial Guard starter force/

It's worth mentioning that when most GW shops used to run "start collecting" events, points weren't a thing. It was literally just "You paint & play what's in the box." That's why they had the formations in there, making it so armies that otherwise couldn't work had a way to do so.

The best Start Collecting box is the one that makes you pull it down off the shelf, think "This looks cool," and buy it.

The worst one is whatever your friend got.

ValentineGames wrote:

Karol wrote:

Ok, for for whom is it good Any new player is going to be unhappy to hear that the models they just bought suck, and that they can now after spending 200-300$ start buying the real thing.

Suck according to who?
Whiny individuals on forums and social media who view the game as an ego boost?
Or actual gamers?

According to me for example. If I knew that GK were so bad, I would have told my friends to play by themselfs and saved the money for a laptop. I can imagine anyone who spends money on anything, and then finds out the stuff he bought is bad, does not feel good about it. Even if someone is rich, he or she probablly wouldn't be happy to get the wrong or bad service, as a matter or principal.

Hah, when I first started I couldn't find anyone who was willing to play less than 1750 to 2000 points back during 6th edition. I basically got told to spend 3-4 hundred dollars to see if I even like the game.

Same here. People play 2000 or 2250 here. If you don't have it and are new, then maybe they will play you once or twice, if they have nothing to do, if you have fewer points. But after those 2 times, they will expect that you will either get the proper points or they will just not play you, because playing fewer points is waste of their time and money. And no one is going to waster their time and money, that someone else has fun.

ValentineGames wrote:

Karol wrote:

Ok, for for whom is it good Any new player is going to be unhappy to hear that the models they just bought suck, and that they can now after spending 200-300$ start buying the real thing.

Suck according to who?
Whiny individuals on forums and social media who view the game as an ego boost?
Or actual gamers?

Actual gamers come here and complain about their struggles all the time. Dropping $300 on an army, and then being totally and completely unable to compete even casually, is a problem that people do face.

It's normal to seek out opinions and information before you make a purchase and commitment like starting an army.

You're implicitly making the argument here, by the way, that the way you play is the right way. Others play differently and that is okay.

Karol wrote:

ValentineGames wrote:

Karol wrote:

Ok, for for whom is it good Any new player is going to be unhappy to hear that the models they just bought suck, and that they can now after spending 200-300$ start buying the real thing.

Suck according to who?
Whiny individuals on forums and social media who view the game as an ego boost?
Or actual gamers?

According to me for example.

Well that says it all then.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
For the GK all they need to do is put in a Terminator and he can be either a brother-captain or a grandmaster or even a librarian. The bigger issue would be putting in a heavy unit. You would have to choose either a Landraider or a Dreadknight or a Purgation squad. I seriously doubt that they would put in either vehicle and the Purgation squad is just a varient use of the strike squad sprue.

Giving people a Grey Knights librarian in a start collecting box would be such a dick move. Here's the worst model in the game, start your army!

ValentineGames wrote:

Karol wrote:

ValentineGames wrote:

Karol wrote:

Ok, for for whom is it good Any new player is going to be unhappy to hear that the models they just bought suck, and that they can now after spending 200-300$ start buying the real thing.

Suck according to who?
Whiny individuals on forums and social media who view the game as an ego boost?
Or actual gamers?

According to me for example.

Well that says it all then.

Says all what You want to tell me that the normal situation is to be sold a defective product? If someone sold you PC that wouldn't work, and claimed everything is going to be alright, if you spend more money on another PC, you think anyone would react with happiness?

Karol wrote:

ValentineGames wrote:

Karol wrote:

ValentineGames wrote:

Karol wrote:

Ok, for for whom is it good Any new player is going to be unhappy to hear that the models they just bought suck, and that they can now after spending 200-300$ start buying the real thing.

Suck according to who?
Whiny individuals on forums and social media who view the game as an ego boost?
Or actual gamers?

According to me for example.

Well that says it all then.

Says all what You want to tell me that the normal situation is to be sold a defective product?

But they aren't defective. You're chatting a load of bollocks.

The goal of an army is to play with it and win. If there were other goals we wouldn't have to pay for rules, or need FAQ/errata. So an army that can not win, is just that a defective product. Dude are you really saying that Grey Knights are fine?

Karol wrote:
The goal of an army is to play with it and win.

Oh...You're one of "those" players...
Never mind. You've just answered everything in one sentence.

ValentineGames wrote:

Karol wrote:
The goal of an army is to play with it and win.

Oh...You're one of "those" players...
Never mind. You've just answered everything in one sentence.

You're one of the push models around aimlessly and throw dice players then, I guess?

Karol wrote:
The goal of an army is to play with it and win. If there were other goals we wouldn't have to pay for rules, or need FAQ/errata. So an army that can not win, is just that a defective product. Dude are you really saying that Grey Knights are fine?

Exactly! I found out the hard way that an army based on tactical marines, a squad of devs, a dakka predator, and some bikes and terminators for support sucks. Horribly. And if I wanted to enjoy playing more by having a reasonable shot at winning, I would have to buy an entirely new army because GW decided only RWBKs and Darkshrouds should be any good. I can't afford to do that- drop $100s on the "good" units-and I wouldn't even if I could.

I feel like nobody else here reads the codex before making huge purchases

 Billagio wrote:
I feel like nobody else here reads the codex before making huge purchases

You shouldn't have to read the codex to check if the army is any good or not before you buy it, though. They should all be good.

Blastaar wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
I feel like nobody else here reads the codex before making huge purchases

You shouldn't have to read the codex to check if the army is any good or not before you buy it, though. They should all be good.

I'd say at least playable.

Some armies are simply so bad they can't compete in a casual setting or competitive setting.

In a general sense, in casual games, you want your games to be close. Win or lose, a close game is fun. Feeling like you have a chance to win and ending up losing is ok, never feeling like you have a chance and getting tabled is not fun.

Karol is a guy who bought Grey Knights, and is now getting wrecked every game he plays. We discussed his list, tactics, etc, in another thread. He is rightfully upset because he bought a collection that ultimately doesn't function.

 Marmatag wrote:

Blastaar wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
I feel like nobody else here reads the codex before making huge purchases

You shouldn't have to read the codex to check if the army is any good or not before you buy it, though. They should all be good.

I'd say at least playable.

Some armies are simply so bad they can't compete in a casual setting or competitive setting.

In a general sense, in casual games, you want your games to be close. Win or lose, a close game is fun. Feeling like you have a chance to win and ending up losing is ok, never feeling like you have a chance and getting tabled is not fun.

Karol is a guy who bought Grey Knights, and is now getting wrecked every game he plays. We discussed his list, tactics, etc, in another thread. He is rightfully upset because he bought a collection that ultimately doesn't function.

Yeah I feel abd for him, (I have grey knights too, they umm... look nice on my shelf?) but at least in this edition GKs seem to be the outlier, IMHO grey knights need an entire rethink/redo to become a good army. no amount oif points adjustments etc are going to work

Karol wrote:
The goal of an army is to play with it and win. If there were other goals we wouldn't have to pay for rules, or need FAQ/errata. So an army that can not win, is just that a defective product. Dude are you really saying that Grey Knights are fine?

I believe the goal of the game is to play and have fun. Although the definition of fun might be subjective, if your only goal is to win, that may be a part of your problem. No army in this game will allow you to just win every time. Even in previous editions, where the balance between armies wasn't even close, there was no auto-win army (though certainly some had huge advantages in this regard).

 Marmatag wrote:
Karol is a guy who bought Grey Knights, and is now getting wrecked every game he plays. We discussed his list, tactics, etc, in another thread. He is rightfully upset because he bought a collection that ultimately doesn't function.

I read that entire thread as well. While I don't disagree that Grey Knights are definitely on the weaker side of things, likely being the weakest codex, it sounds like his gaming environment is a much larger issue than his army. In any even reasonably casual environment, Grey Knights can perform decently, although it may be an uphill battle against some armies. While I certainly hope that Grey Knights (and a couple other armies) are brought up a bit to be more competitive in a tournament environment, I don't think it is particularly helpful nor useful to say his army doesn't function, or is, in his own words, "a defective product," unless of course your only reason to play is to win.