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Davor wrote:
I am not saying you are wrong Original Poster since you have your opinion and it doesn't suit you. My question is, what is really the problem?


Are you planning to use the boards for 40K games instead of Kill Teams? Is it just a preference to play on a bigger board? The board while smaller is not that much smaller I believe. Do you really play on the edges all the time that those extra 6" or so make a difference?

Do you have your objectives on the edges to need the extra range? All I see most games of 40K is just like Warmahordes. Rush to the middle to pew pew everyone. I never see the extra space/range being used EXCEPT for turn one. That is it.

So I am trying to understand why it's such a big issue for you. Again, not saying you are wrong, just trying to understand your opinion.

Peregrin made things clear in an earlier post or two, clearer than i could have. Essentially it is this ~ GW might have packagd boards that scale up to standard table sizes with rules supporting the transition. A move i would have endorsed. Instead they built anothr standalone with what appears to be a planned lack of potential integration with existing systems and instead now we hear that this was to fit on Magic tables instead. So i am disappointed and want to invest but ... Gonna skip this one. Lookin at adeptus titanicus instead.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Davor wrote:
I am not saying you are wrong Original Poster since you have your opinion and it doesn't suit you. My question is, what is really the problem?


Are you planning to use the boards for 40K games instead of Kill Teams? Is it just a preference to play on a bigger board? The board while smaller is not that much smaller I believe. Do you really play on the edges all the time that those extra 6" or so make a difference?

Do you have your objectives on the edges to need the extra range? All I see most games of 40K is just like Warmahordes. Rush to the middle to pew pew everyone. I never see the extra space/range being used EXCEPT for turn one. That is it.

So I am trying to understand why it's such a big issue for you. Again, not saying you are wrong, just trying to understand your opinion.

I built an 8x4 back in the day. Wish we had that sort of scale these days. Back then stuff moved slower for the most part. Armies were smaller more infantry. Jump packs mattered. So...yeah table space is important

 jeff white wrote:
Peregrin made things clear in an earlier post or two, clearer than i could have. Essentially it is this ~ GW might have packagd boards that scale up to standard table sizes with rules supporting the transition. A move i would have endorsed. Instead they built anothr standalone with what appears to be a planned lack of potential integration with existing systems and instead now we hear that this was to fit on Magic tables instead. So i am disappointed and want to invest but ... Gonna skip this one. Lookin at adeptus titanicus instead.

Do what you like, but the cost savings on the terrain in the Kill Zone boxes is more than you might think and would easily make purchasing a realm of battle board doable compared to buying the RoB and all the terrain you would purchase to put on it. Silly that you are stuck on not getting into KT but aren't willing to go the same path many others do, which is skip the RoB all together.

If you want to skip out on Kill Team because the board is a few inches shorter, more power to you.

People also don't realize the important of the new board size. If you notice the new size is much easier to fit on a kitchen table and or magic table. GW spicificly designed it to be able to take up a smaller profile in a hobby store to compete with MtG.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not to mention, literally nothing is stopping you from playing on any board size you like. Or playing on a 4x4

One of the biggest complaints you will find about 40k from people who are interested but do not play is that the board is too large.

A 22x30 board is great. It fits on standard card tables, kitchen tables and coffee tables. That is not only ideal but perfect. It means you can actually run tournaments and events of Kill Team with basic card tables, no need for large, custom tables. This opens up many more places to play the game, not least of which are traditional card game stores (who already have the infrastructure). Indeed on a standard 6 foot by 30" table, you could comfortably seat 4 players and have lots of room left over for tokens and cards.

A 24x36 inch board would be a huge hindrance to the potential popularity and success of the game.

 Red_Five wrote:
One of the biggest complaints you will find about 40k from people who are interested but do not play is that the board is too large.

A 22x30 board is great. It fits on standard card tables, kitchen tables and coffee tables. That is not only ideal but perfect. It means you can actually run tournaments and events of Kill Team with basic card tables, no need for large, custom tables. This opens up many more places to play the game, not least of which are traditional card game stores (who already have the infrastructure). Indeed on a standard 6 foot by 30" table, you could comfortably seat 4 players and have lots of room left over for tokens and cards.


A 24x36 inch board would be a huge hindrance to the potential popularity and success of the game.

This, gws biggest problem marketing wise is that the space vs profit margin sucks ass with wargaming. Look how many people can comfortably play on a 6x4 considering you also need at least a 1' buffer on each side to move so really it's more of a 8x6 space you need in order to play comfortably and even then it's only like 4 people. Now twke that same space and fit it with card tables, how many people can you get to play MtG in that space?

That's what GW chose this size, to increase it's space to profit

What remains to be seen is if the size of the board is a benefit to the game itself or something that gets in the way.

 Crablezworth wrote:
What remains to be seen is if the size of the board is a benefit to the game itself or something that gets in the way.

I won't think it will matter because think of it this way, if you were on a 4x4 of often do you find yourself on the edge? If anything it just forces the game to go quicker and be more killy.

I literally had a conversation with my LGS on release day about the board size making it much easier for them to support the game with game nights and tournaments.

The size is great for what this game aims to be.

Do you have to play 40k on a 6'x4' area?

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Do you have to play 40k on a 6'x4' area?

It's the recommended size as far back as I can remember. Though with how cheap and plentiful infantry are in 8th, the board does feel crowded sometimes.

 Odrankt wrote:
Well, you could buy 6 expansions and make a 3ft8" x 7ft6" (44"x90") board. Could even rip off 1ft6" and have a 3ft8" x 6ft? Plus a gakk ton of GW Terrain at a bargain

Here was my thinking ... I'm lucky to own a 8 ft by 6 ft table in my garage. Until now, I've got by with a super king size bed flat sheet thrown over it, plus terrain. (Got different colours of sheets - reddish for Mars, purple for Tyranid infested planet, grey for city scape).

So I had two options to get something better for that 8'x 6' table:

Option A : Buy 2 x Realm of Battle Sector Imperialis

Pros:

Covers my 8' x 6' table perfectly (96" x 72")

Beautiful looking 3D terrain base

Cons:

Single battlefield (albeit with ability to re-order tiles)

Needs painting before "full effect"

OR


Option B : Purchase 9 Kill Team Tiles - 3 strips of 5.5' x 2.5' (66" x 30" each strip of 3 boards)

Pros:

Covers almost all of my 8' x 6' table

7.5' x 5.5' (90" x 66") - leaves a healthy margin all round for dice, tokens, laser pens etc
Personally, I'm OK with losing the border and gaining the 6" surround on the table

Is ready to go - no need to paint to have a beautiful looking table

I can flip some of the mats to create a mix of Imperaialis, Mechanicus and Munitorum

3 strips of 5.5' x 2.5' (66" x 30" each)
And thus have 2 very different tables (ignoring the re-ordering of tiles within a table)

Cons:

I lose a 6" surround on the table. I'm neutral on this - the space will be a nice border for dead units, dice rolling etc

All these costs are from my usual plastic crack dealer (offering 15 - 20% discount) - all prices are as listed on the Element Games site right now, or what I purchased them at over the last two weekends...

The 2 x Realm of Battle boards would have cost me 340 (170 each) after discount

Here's how I obtained the 9 Kill Team Tiles (3 are still on pre-order, so I've not got them all yet):

2 x Kill Team Base Sets cost me 128 (64 each) after discount

4 x Killzone Sector Mechanicus cost me 160 (40 each) after discount

3 x Killzone Sector Munitorum cost me 120 (40 each) after discount

So 340 pounds to lay out RoB boards on my table at full table utilisation
or 408 pounds to lay out Kill Team Tiles on my table at near full size utilisation, with greater variation in the table top thanks to sector Imperalis, Mechanicus and Munitorum tile options (or indeed, 9 full-on Imperalis)

Except that 408 pounds also gives me the following - essentially all this for 68 pounds difference between RoB and KT boards:


Savings From Kill Team Purchase

2 x Gene Stealer Cult Neophyte boxes (Valued at 42 pounds total after discount)

2 x Skitarii boxes (Valued at 40 pounds total after discount)

I will make use of both of these - my GSC and Adeptus Mechanicus armies have been "built by accident" from 2 boxes of Deathwatch Overkill and 2 boxes of Forgebane. So these are cool pools of extra infantry I will find use for

6 full sets of Munitorum Armoured Containers (Valued at 75 pounds total after discount)

8 frames of Sector Imperialis terrain (ruins, floors, buildings, walls, columns) from the 2 Kill Team Base sets, I think via a lazy look at box contents, 60 pounds of terrain savings (I figure 1 x ruins and 0.5 x Administratum per KT base set)

32 (!!!) frames of Sector Mechanicus scenery, including 4 Alchomite Stack and 4 Ferrotonic Furances and 8 sets of Plasma Conduits - I'm finding this hard to believe, but it looks like that is a whopping 200 quid worth of terrain after discount (25 pounds each for Ferratonic Furnace and Alchomite stack ... times 4 pairs)

3 sets of Galvanic Servhaulers (Valued at 63 pounds total after discount)

Not to mention

2 x copies of Kill Team rulebook for my group (Valued at 40 pounds total after discount)

So for me, I'm getting a 7.5 foot by 5.5 foot gaming table, plus 82 pounds worth of models, plus 398 (!!!) pounds worth of terrain, plus 40 pounds worth of rule book, for a net cost of 68 pounds over 2 Realm of Battle sets.

For me, Kill Team is an absolute bargain for a new WH40K table that is big enough to play a big battle - a nice full-colour hard cardboard battletop plus enough terrain to block LOS on 40K battles. It'll take me forever to assemble all that terrain, but hey, those boxes will make great paper weights until the project is complete (and it would have taken me ages to pain the RoB boards in any case)

And I have enough tokens and rules for two of us to play down on Kill Team between bouts of 40K on the new and improved table.

Better option, buy secret weapon boards, they were 3d have lots of options and come in 1x1 boards WHICH all Lock together so they don't slide around and much eaiser to store.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Better option, buy secret weapon boards, they were 3d have lots of options and come in 1x1 boards WHICH all Lock together so they don't slide around and much eaiser to store.

I did consider this a few weeks back. But they have no local presence in Ireland I could find, and shipping from the US (plus taxes) would have doubled the cost.

In the end, I'm very happy with my decision. The boards which have arrived so far look great, and the terrain bonus is fantastic.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Hm....Googling "game expansion" got me this (bolded the important part for emphasis):

An expansion pack, expansion set, supplement, or simply expansion is an addition to an existing role-playing game, tabletop game, video game or collectible card game. These add-ons usually add new game areas, weapons, objects, characters and/or an extended storyline to an already released game.

I don't think a bit of cardboard and some terrain is really an expansion since it's part of the initial release and not an expansion to the existing game.

On the Games Workshop Store Page for Killzone: Sector Mechanicus, GW themselves call it an expansion for Kill Team.

"The Sector Mechanicus Killzone Environment is an expansion for Kill Team"

I think it's reasonable to call someting being marketed as an expansion an expansion, and to judge it as an expansion.

jeff white wrote:

Spoiler:

Davor wrote:
I am not saying you are wrong Original Poster since you have your opinion and it doesn't suit you. My question is, what is really the problem?


Are you planning to use the boards for 40K games instead of Kill Teams? Is it just a preference to play on a bigger board? The board while smaller is not that much smaller I believe. Do you really play on the edges all the time that those extra 6" or so make a difference?

Do you have your objectives on the edges to need the extra range? All I see most games of 40K is just like Warmahordes. Rush to the middle to pew pew everyone. I never see the extra space/range being used EXCEPT for turn one. That is it.

So I am trying to understand why it's such a big issue for you. Again, not saying you are wrong, just trying to understand your opinion.

Peregrin made things clear in an earlier post or two, clearer than i could have. Essentially it is this ~ GW might have packagd boards that scale up to standard table sizes with rules supporting the transition. A move i would have endorsed. Instead they built anothr standalone with what appears to be a planned lack of potential integration with existing systems and instead now we hear that this was to fit on Magic tables instead. So i am disappointed and want to invest but ... Gonna skip this one. Lookin at adeptus titanicus instead.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Davor wrote:
I am not saying you are wrong Original Poster since you have your opinion and it doesn't suit you. My question is, what is really the problem?


Are you planning to use the boards for 40K games instead of Kill Teams? Is it just a preference to play on a bigger board? The board while smaller is not that much smaller I believe. Do you really play on the edges all the time that those extra 6" or so make a difference?

Do you have your objectives on the edges to need the extra range? All I see most games of 40K is just like Warmahordes. Rush to the middle to pew pew everyone. I never see the extra space/range being used EXCEPT for turn one. That is it.

So I am trying to understand why it's such a big issue for you. Again, not saying you are wrong, just trying to understand your opinion.

I built an 8x4 back in the day. Wish we had that sort of scale these days. Back then stuff moved slower for the most part. Armies were smaller more infantry. Jump packs mattered. So...yeah table space is important

Thank you for the reply. I can see where you are coming from. GW can very well scale up the game. I always said the "get into 40K" should be like a Kill Team type game. They can make the scale get bigger and bigger for new people to ease them into regular 40K if they so choose to do so, but at a slower pace that the person would be more comfortable with. We don't know what GW is planning. It can very well not scale or it might, we just don't know. I agree it would be silly if GW didn't do it and capitalize if Kill Zone is doing great and seeing if it brings in new blood. Maybe that is what GW is doing waiting to see how we accept Kill Team and then move from their.

Just curious, I and I could be wrong, but I haven't read anywhere where it's set in stone of table size or map size. Yes of course if you use the supplied maps it's smaller, but who says you have to use them? You can buy the rule book seperately and just use what you want, or get the box set if you want the minis/terrian and just not use the maps. They are not mandatory. Just a good way for us who can't make good looking boards. Since you have a good board you don't need the smaller maps and can play a larger game.

I also thought I have read it said from a few Asian posters they say they don't have large table space and say 40K is too big. So I thought this was a way of acomodating Asian players with a smaller table to play on.

 Ezaviel wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Hm....Googling "game expansion" got me this (bolded the important part for emphasis):

An expansion pack, expansion set, supplement, or simply expansion is an addition to an existing role-playing game, tabletop game, video game or collectible card game. These add-ons usually add new game areas, weapons, objects, characters and/or an extended storyline to an already released game.

I don't think a bit of cardboard and some terrain is really an expansion since it's part of the initial release and not an expansion to the existing game.

On the Games Workshop Store Page for Killzone: Sector Mechanicus, GW themselves call it an expansion for Kill Team.

"The Sector Mechanicus Killzone Environment is an expansion for Kill Team"

I think it's reasonable to call someting being marketed as an expansion an expansion, and to judge it as an expansion.

You're getting a rules expansion with terrain to use it on.

Davor wrote:

jeff white wrote:

Spoiler:

Davor wrote:
I am not saying you are wrong Original Poster since you have your opinion and it doesn't suit you. My question is, what is really the problem?


Are you planning to use the boards for 40K games instead of Kill Teams? Is it just a preference to play on a bigger board? The board while smaller is not that much smaller I believe. Do you really play on the edges all the time that those extra 6" or so make a difference?

Do you have your objectives on the edges to need the extra range? All I see most games of 40K is just like Warmahordes. Rush to the middle to pew pew everyone. I never see the extra space/range being used EXCEPT for turn one. That is it.

So I am trying to understand why it's such a big issue for you. Again, not saying you are wrong, just trying to understand your opinion.

Peregrin made things clear in an earlier post or two, clearer than i could have. Essentially it is this ~ GW might have packagd boards that scale up to standard table sizes with rules supporting the transition. A move i would have endorsed. Instead they built anothr standalone with what appears to be a planned lack of potential integration with existing systems and instead now we hear that this was to fit on Magic tables instead. So i am disappointed and want to invest but ... Gonna skip this one. Lookin at adeptus titanicus instead.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Davor wrote:
I am not saying you are wrong Original Poster since you have your opinion and it doesn't suit you. My question is, what is really the problem?


Are you planning to use the boards for 40K games instead of Kill Teams? Is it just a preference to play on a bigger board? The board while smaller is not that much smaller I believe. Do you really play on the edges all the time that those extra 6" or so make a difference?

Do you have your objectives on the edges to need the extra range? All I see most games of 40K is just like Warmahordes. Rush to the middle to pew pew everyone. I never see the extra space/range being used EXCEPT for turn one. That is it.

So I am trying to understand why it's such a big issue for you. Again, not saying you are wrong, just trying to understand your opinion.

I built an 8x4 back in the day. Wish we had that sort of scale these days. Back then stuff moved slower for the most part. Armies were smaller more infantry. Jump packs mattered. So...yeah table space is important

Thank you for the reply. I can see where you are coming from. GW can very well scale up the game. I always said the "get into 40K" should be like a Kill Team type game. They can make the scale get bigger and bigger for new people to ease them into regular 40K if they so choose to do so, but at a slower pace that the person would be more comfortable with. We don't know what GW is planning. It can very well not scale or it might, we just don't know. I agree it would be silly if GW didn't do it and capitalize if Kill Zone is doing great and seeing if it brings in new blood. Maybe that is what GW is doing waiting to see how we accept Kill Team and then move from their.

Just curious, I and I could be wrong, but I haven't read anywhere where it's set in stone of table size or map size. Yes of course if you use the supplied maps it's smaller, but who says you have to use them? You can buy the rule book seperately and just use what you want, or get the box set if you want the minis/terrian and just not use the maps. They are not mandatory. Just a good way for us who can't make good looking boards. Since you have a good board you don't need the smaller maps and can play a larger game.

I also thought I have read it said from a few Asian posters they say they don't have large table space and say 40K is too big. So I thought this was a way of acomodating Asian players with a smaller table to play on.

Yeah it is tough makin space in the typical apartment here. Once had a Vietnamese student assistant tell mevthey had no room for the table so no 40k there... So maybe.

But the reason for a standard table is to have a standard with which game dynamics can be tuned. I dont say balanced but more tuned for fun and fairness. Without a standard then the game further devolves into a marshmallow minded time sink. Not what i spent the past 25yrs collecting stuff to recreate.

Moreover a bigger table affords more tactical flexibility. Less likelihood of a big scrum in the middle of the table or a single assassin murderating an entire army backfield in 2 turns...

Then don't get the game boards and play on 24x24 blocks instead. With 6 of those, you can play a full game of 40k, and GW even sells them as 'Realm of Battle' tiles that are fully textured plastic that you can paint and rearrange to your heart's content.

I don't see the problem here.

drbored wrote:
Then don't get the game boards and play on 24x24 blocks instead. With 6 of those, you can play a full game of 40k, and GW even sells them as 'Realm of Battle' tiles that are fully textured plastic that you can paint and rearrange to your heart's content.

I don't see the problem here.

Yeah. See. 24x24 is smaller. RoB is also boring. Nah...
Frankly i find it hard to believe that Magic tables in comic book whops cant handle a 24x36 inch board but wutevs. GW is into compartmentalizing and maximizing transactions not into providing consistent and integrative hobby suppprt.
They dont wanna throw a bone to 40k collectors then fine. I wont aupport the move. I figure other 40k enthusiasts will also skip this one for similar reasons

 jeff white wrote:

drbored wrote:
Then don't get the game boards and play on 24x24 blocks instead. With 6 of those, you can play a full game of 40k, and GW even sells them as 'Realm of Battle' tiles that are fully textured plastic that you can paint and rearrange to your heart's content.

I don't see the problem here.

Yeah. See. 24x24 is smaller. RoB is also boring. Nah...
Frankly i find it hard to believe that Magic tables in comic book whops cant handle a 24x36 inch board but wutevs. GW is into compartmentalizing and maximizing transactions not into providing consistent and integrative hobby suppprt.
They dont wanna throw a bone to 40k collectors then fine. I wont aupport the move.

Just to be clear, are you skipping Kill Team entirely or just the expansions? The former doesn't make much sense to me since you can just buy the book and nothing else. The latter is much more understandable.

I figure other 40k enthusiasts will also skip this one for similar reasons[

I suspect you may be in the minority.

Dandelion wrote:

 jeff white wrote:

drbored wrote:
Then don't get the game boards and play on 24x24 blocks instead. With 6 of those, you can play a full game of 40k, and GW even sells them as 'Realm of Battle' tiles that are fully textured plastic that you can paint and rearrange to your heart's content.

I don't see the problem here.

Yeah. See. 24x24 is smaller. RoB is also boring. Nah...
Frankly i find it hard to believe that Magic tables in comic book whops cant handle a 24x36 inch board but wutevs. GW is into compartmentalizing and maximizing transactions not into providing consistent and integrative hobby suppprt.
They dont wanna throw a bone to 40k collectors then fine. I wont aupport the move.

Just to be clear, are you skipping Kill Team entirely or just the expansions? The former doesn't make much sense to me since you can just buy the book and nothing else. The latter is much more understandable.

I figure other 40k enthusiasts will also skip this one for similar reasons[

I suspect you may be in the minority.

Happy to be in the minority as most people are not and most people are.... Not something i wanna be.

As for killteam generally as i wrote above i would play given the chance but likely not much especially given wonky initiative mechanics. Also as i wrote above i have my eye on titanicus for a new standalone game..

Might dl the book when scans show up.

But yeah especially i will be skippin these expansions. Was hopin to pick up those for my armies (4 or 5) but nahhh.

So, I did an unboxing of this to see what the value of it is and to see if the board could be used for normal 40k if you had several of those. Hope this video answers some questions and if this video inst allowed here please direct me to where I can upload this video. Cheers

Grab a 6x4 mdf board from DIY store.
Paint it.
Play kill team on as much or as little as you like.
Use the mats/tiles/terrain if you want. Don't use if you don't want.
Done.

Seriously not getting the issues being raised

I agree it would have been nice if the size was compatible with standard 40k, but this post is a lot of hyperbole. If that is the ONE thing that kept you from the game, you weren't likely very interested anyway.

I'd be willing to bet that the size they went with was based on the size of tables most people have around to make it more accessible. That accessibility will probably net more sales than was lost by people upset at the lack of compatibility.

If you want compatibility, make your own boards 24x36 and dont use a few inches of the perimeter.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Who cares? It's packaged with 22x30, but you can play on a bigger one if you want. Nothing's stopping you. Kill Team is Kill Team, not 40k.

The main priority of the expansions is a cheap(er) collection of terrain and some extra rules - not for a sheet of cardboard.

The point is that the product could have been useful for other games and therefore a more appealing purpose if it was a standard 24x24 size, but instead it's an awkward 22x30 that will see zero use anywhere else and zero additional sales.

Since the terrain is already 40k terrain (sized for 32mm 6x4) the only thing is the board. Can you play kill team on a 3x3ft board? Yes. Can you play it on the provided board? yes. Can you play it one a 6x4' warhammer board? Sure, if you don't mind spend an extra half hour maneuvering into range.

I don't know about your meta, but both my local meta and my hometown's meta is sold out of kill team stuff. Seriously, even the stores that still have the first AOS and Dark Imperium core sets in stock have sold out. If Kill Team is missing sales it's because they aren't producing stock fast enough.

 Crablezworth wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Why are we assuming that the non-standard size makes the game better, instead of being better for GW's production or packaging concerns?

My thoughts exactly, they likely did it because it was the biggest they could fit in the box.

Plenty of room in the box for a 24x36 if they'd wanted to do that.

Maybe in the core box but not in the expansions.

I believe old school kill team was 4 by 4 and that was with 200 points per side. Playing on a 6 by 4 table were each side has roughly 10 models a side seems like it would take forever to get models close enough to shoot or fight each other. You would also need a city fights worth of terrain.

Ragnar69 wrote:
Maybe in the core box but not in the expansions.

The kill zone boxes would need to be 0.5" taller and 0.5" wider to accomodate a 24x36 board (assuming that the board continues to fold the same way).