Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Mine are not clearly marked either way. For exactly this reason.

OK, it is really not even a proxy, just some marines with wrong marking or no markings. All chapters do not even mark their veterans. I'm absolutely fine with other people doing this. It is just that I'm personally neurotic about this and I like to design logical marking schemes and it bothers me if my models have 'wrong' markings.

It's also pretty obvious when one squad has storm shields and one has plasma guns.

ShaunyP wrote:
Ok so do they work well in any way? Would 20 assault marines huddled together do any good?
What about if teamed with HQ with re-rolls?
Or what about if team with Vanguard Veterans to sort of soak up shots?

Not really, they are not unplayable but they are a sub standard choice.

I'm fine with people doing it. I'm not fine with being told that not doing it is something "That doesn't even work as a reason."

ShaunyP - A blob of ASM isn't going to get you anywhere. If you're looking for a solid CC threat, Crusader Squads and Terminator Squads are the units for that. And they're bad right now.

ASM aren't good even at doing what they're made for - being skirmishers. They're even worse at other roles - such as a CC blob.

If you want to use them, I'd suggest a 5-man strike team to go vehicle hunting or go after small backfielders, or maybe a 10man squad if you think you'll be going after things like Devs (still in the backfield) or lone midfield threats.

What a shame. They’re nice models.

If you're not planning on top-tabling at major tournaments, them not being great doesn't prevent you from getting a box and having some fun with them.

They can still make things happen. If your meta isn't super competitive, they can still get some things done.

I see that tossed around, "if your meta isn't competitive.."

Fun fact: there are numerous 'non-competitive' lists that would be rather difficult to face.

For example:

IG battalion
Commander Russ
Commander Russ
Tons of Guardsmen

IG battalion
Commander Russ
Mr. Kurov's Aquila Commander
Tons of Guardsmen

IG Spearhead
Master of Ordnance
Tons of Manticores / Basilisks

Fluffy, casual, guard list. What would ASM do here? How many points are you sinking in them for them to be insta-gibbbed?

Assault Marines should be:

-Moved to troops where they belong.
-Have 2 attacks base (all marines should, frankly)
-Special Rule: Death From Above: Assault Marines gain +1 attack on the turn they charge.
-Chainswords changed to: Strength: user/AP -1/Re-roll failed to wound rolls.
-2 Squad members gain access to power weapons/power fists/lightning claws

There are "numerous 'non-competitive' lists that would be rather difficult to face" with Shining Spears as well. That doesn't mean they don't have their uses.

ShaunyP wrote:
Ok so do they work well in any way? Would 20 assault marines huddled together do any good?
What about if teamed with HQ with re-rolls?
Or what about if team with Vanguard Veterans to sort of soak up shots?

The thing is that the difference between Vanguard and Assault Marines is only 2 points.

To put that in perspective, 160 points is 10 Assault Marines. This is 8 Vanguard. You don't screen much when the difference is nil.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
There are "numerous 'non-competitive' lists that would be rather difficult to face" with Shining Spears as well. That doesn't mean they don't have their uses.

Like? You can't make that statement and not list those casual lists.

A list of pure Guardsmen - or even just mostly. Spears aren't going to do much there.

An Ork Boy horde.

I'm not saying ASM are a great unit. I'm just saying they aren't auto-lose. Some of us have gotten some mileage out of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(specifically, that you can get some mileage out of them in casual games, and what to do to try to get that mileage.)

Bharring wrote:
Some of my more extreme examples aren't properly living up to LoS. Although a stack of congealed greenstuff could stand in for any of them and fix the LoS issue.

It's not just about what you're willing to play against. It's about dismissing what I'm willing to play. A model painted as an ASM is not a counts-as VV. It's a proxy. Counts-as is stuff like Exodites or most Corsair models, where you use a datasheet that fits it's rules. With ASM as VV, the model is an exact fit in fluff and depiction as an ASM, but you're using VV rules because you want different rules.

Now, using an ASM kit to *make* VV is neither. It's scratchbuild or kitbash. That's very different from Countsas or Proxies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
We aren't talking about using ASM bits to make VV. We're talking about using ASMs (whether they're made of ASM kit or VV kit), that are clearly marked as ASMs, and clearly intended to be ASMs, using the VV rules.

I'm 100% pro kitbash. I think counts-as is cool. I try to minimize proxying.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"If you wanted to just use those squads as opposites, who cares?"
People who care about what their models are supposed to represent? I care that my ASM are ASM and not VV. Other people will see ASM markings, and some of them might care. Most may not, but to dismiss it as an argument that "doesn't even work" is insulting.

They're both Marines with Jump Packs. You aren't making any sense with that argument. My packaged Captain is gonna be used as a Lieutenant at some point. Show me a non-Primaris Lieutenant that GW still sells.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
A list of pure Guardsmen - or even just mostly. Spears aren't going to do much there.

An Ork Boy horde.

I'm not saying ASM are a great unit. I'm just saying they aren't auto-lose. Some of us have gotten some mileage out of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(specifically, that you can get some mileage out of them in casual games, and what to do to try to get that mileage.)

They have 4 Shuriken shots each for one squad and then they charge another target. Assault Marines don't have a role that isn't already filled by Vanguard.

I'm not saying Spears are *bad*, but your analysis is extremely shortsighted.

Sure, 4 Shuriken shots and a Laser Lance. That's a lot of dakka per model. But those shots are costing you nearly 40 points each. Nearly a Squad of IG for each Spear. Congrats, your shooting kills about 2 Guardsmen per Spear. Your charge kills another 1, maybe 2. So it takes 3 Spears to kill one 10man squad of Guardsmen.

Conversely, it only takes 18 Guardsmen shooting at a Spear to kill one. 12 if you count CC.

Over 100 points of SPears kills 40 points of Guardsmen. 72 points of Guardsmen kills nearly 40 points of Spears.

"You aren't making any sense with that argument."
*I* want to field *my* units as what they were painted/modeled as. *I* want to field *MY* *ASM* as *ASM* not *VV*. Because I painted them that way. I'm not understanding how that makes no sense?

I get that you and some others don't care how they're painted. But you're not me. Why all this hostility to playing WSYWIG?

Well, WSYWIG is what Yoda would play.

What see, you will indeed get

I have to say I can side with Bharring on this one. I play only WYSIWYG etc. While I don't necessarily paint squad markings, etc., I refuse to just declare models as another type of model, even if the wargear matches. That's not fun or appealing to me, nor interesting.

I get a lot of suggestions about my <Nurgle> Renegades which I used for my CSM. The fact is my personal background I developed means my units are just that. I know I 'could' benefit from changing my Obliterators to <Slaanesh> so they get the double-shoot stratagem, but they're not <Slaanesh> etc. I will not chase tournament-spec army lists just to gain a trick.

There's nothing stopping me from running my Dark Apostle as a Chaos Lord...short of...he's not a Chaos Lord, because I decided he's not, etc. That's not something to criticize, particularly if somebody has spent a lot of time and effort on something and they want to represent precisely what they built.

"The way I play is the right way."

Bharring wrote:
I'm not saying Spears are *bad*, but your analysis is extremely shortsighted.

Sure, 4 Shuriken shots and a Laser Lance. That's a lot of dakka per model. But those shots are costing you nearly 40 points each. Nearly a Squad of IG for each Spear. Congrats, your shooting kills about 2 Guardsmen per Spear. Your charge kills another 1, maybe 2. So it takes 3 Spears to kill one 10man squad of Guardsmen.

Conversely, it only takes 18 Guardsmen shooting at a Spear to kill one. 12 if you count CC.

Over 100 points of SPears kills 40 points of Guardsmen. 72 points of Guardsmen kills nearly 40 points of Spears.

"You aren't making any sense with that argument."
*I* want to field *my* units as what they were painted/modeled as. *I* want to field *MY* *ASM* as *ASM* not *VV*. Because I painted them that way. I'm not understanding how that makes no sense?

I get that you and some others don't care how they're painted. But you're not me. Why all this hostility to playing WSYWIG?

My analysis isn't shortsighted.

Shining Spears aren't fighting another unit for a particular role. Assault Marines are fighting Vanguard for the same role, a role that Vanguard massively outperform them in. You can claim Shining Spears have bad matchups, but there isn't a matchup Assault Marines do well in that Vanguard don't do better for the similar price.

Also I don't care if you want to play them as Assault Marines just because you painted them that way. That's your own fault. It's called giving bad advice to new players asking what to do with their box of Assault Marines. We don't have infinite money to say "Whoops. Guess Assault Marines aren't good and I should've bought the Vangaurd box instead. Lemme go rectify that."

So I'm gonna tell them what to do instead of you: keep the stuff from the box as extra bitz for your conversions/scenery, or build them and run them as Vanguard Veterans.

Gitdakka wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:
Assult marines can take melta bombs. That together with their jump pack makes them unique. Everything else they do is done better than other units because of internal balance of marines codex.

Melta Bombs are already bad in the first place. How is that an argument for Assault Marines?

Exactly. I said it makes them unique, not necessarily good.

VVs can take them too, though.

So really SM fast attack units are few. Apart from the bikes and land speeders, the only infantry fast attack units are the ASMs and the Inceptors, which can’t specialise, or atleast fair well in melee because Primaris Marines aren’t very customisable at all.
It seems the only place I can get some decent melee with SMs is elite or HQ units. Sucks :(

The Marine Fast Attack slot exists just for FW. I lean towards Heavy Bolter Tarantula Guns myself. They're super excellent.

Oh so you don’t actually need fast attack? As long as I’ve got a load of troops I can just replace fast attack slots with elites or heavies?

ShaunyP wrote:
Oh so you don’t actually need fast attack? As long as I’ve got a load of troops I can just replace fast attack slots with elites or heavies?

If you're not using FW, absolutely. You can make a case for Scout Bikers and Inceptors, but I feel most of our needs met via FW in that slot instead. Everyone here knows I'm a die-hard fan of Heavy Bolter Tarantula Guns.

I'm thinking of building an Assault Squad for my BA, in case I run out of Elites slots and still have points left. 2 special weapons to shoot and then some close combat stuff doesn't sound terrible. Plus, I kinda want to model the eviscerator on a guy.

Bharring wrote:
There are "numerous 'non-competitive' lists that would be rather difficult to face" with Shining Spears as well. That doesn't mean they don't have their uses.

incorrect. Shinning spears have highest damage per point in the game and are really survivable and mobile. They are good against everything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
A list of pure Guardsmen - or even just mostly. Spears aren't going to do much there.

An Ork Boy horde.

I'm not saying ASM are a great unit. I'm just saying they aren't auto-lose. Some of us have gotten some mileage out of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(specifically, that you can get some mileage out of them in casual games, and what to do to try to get that mileage.)

Intercessors make assault marines look like guardsmen. About double the damage potential and survivability for only a few more points. Out of a repulsor… They have about the same threat range turn 2 in assault too. Let me make this clear too - intersessors are an overcosted unit.

If you're factoring in a Repulsor you're looking at a -much- higher points cost to get a unit into assault that ASM would do on their own.

I find it interesting that there are basically two camps on this:
1. Feth them and run them as something else
2. I want to play my units and will use them as is and try to make them work

Personally I've always been in the second camp. During 5th I recall regularly seeing people saying to never run Repentia because they're overpriced and can't be used effectively but I'd cut a bloody path through the table with them and easily earn back 2-3x their points almost every game despite the issues that were bundled into them.

And that's always been my point: in a more casual setting subpar units can more than certainly be played at par, and sometimes move above par when played well.

Are their better options in a codex? Sure. Every codex has stuff like this (I mean I'm trying to build a list around putting Rubrics and SoT into a TS army without immediately shooting myself in the foot for not just running so many goats that my opponent wonders if I'm trying to open a farm), and while there are certainly more optimal choices, I don't feel that sub-optimal is the same thing as being completely useless.

If you like the models put them on the table and try different things for them. Maybe they'll do well, maybe they'll fall flat but at the end of the day you'll play what you want to play and the game will be more enjoyable for it.

Sure, Assault Marines have tons of uses! Especially with the updates in the latest red book with the price drop and jump-pack Apothecaries; a lot of Legions have pretty significant tricks that synergize with them, but the stand-out examples have to be the IXth (with Encarmine Fury for +1 to wound and Day of Revelation to Deepstrike all of them on the first turn), the XIIth (for chainaxes and Exhortation of Butchery to make sure something well and truly disappears under the weight of 80+ S5 attacks), and the VIIIth (where Very Bulky makes A Talent for Murder trivial to trigger)...

Oh, wait, sorry, in 40k.

...

No. There isn't.

Assault Marines are perhaps the one unit in the SM book (or DA and BA for that matter) that might actually be worse than Tactical Marines. Honestly Blood Angels are the only chapter that might get any decent use out of them (due to Red Thirst), but even they have far superior units in the form of Death Company or Sanguinary Guard. Really all of the basic non-Primaris marines need an overhaul of some kind, mainly a points reduction for both the Marines and most of the special and heavy weapons (flamers, meltaguns, and gravguns are all overcosted, which is why all you see is plasma for days...).

They look neat and VV take an elites slot that competes with a bunch of other useful stuff. ASMs are a pretty cheap fast attack option and function as a harassment unit. In prior editions their flamers were worth a lot more, which is what I used them for traditionally. Fix flamers and you help Assault Marines a ton.

It's not like a cheap VV squad is writing home about how much damage it does anyways.

Once again, when you have three detachments, taking up an Elite slot is not a point against them.