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 Galef wrote:
So you declare with your shortest ranged weapon that can hit both targets.
Step 2 doesn't require a separate weapon per target. You can use the same one to measure to legal targets.
At step 3, you can now select any weapons that have AT LEAST the range of the weapon you measured with and you need to fire at least 1 weapon per declared target

-

The idea that range has anything to do with step 3 is something you're assuming and adding in, it's not part of the rules.

My point being you have to verify that the weapon you are going to use has range to the target you will use it against in Step 2. So when you declare a unit to be a target I can ask you which weapon(s) you're checking range against and then I know what you're about to say in Step 3 because you've had to verify them all as legal choices in step 2.

Read my above post featuring Hellblasters for an example of what Step 3 is actually about.

 deviantduck wrote:

 Galef wrote:
So you declare with your shortest ranged weapon that can hit both targets.
Step 2 doesn't require a separate weapon per target. You can use the same one to measure to legal targets.
At step 3, you can now select any weapons that have AT LEAST the range of the weapon you measured with and you need to fire at least 1 weapon per declared target

-

Or check every weapon to both targets. Both targets are in range of all weapons. End of Step 2. Would you like to use RIS? Ok. Use it. On to Step 3.

Exactly.
All I need to do to satisfy step 2 is to select a weapon or weapons to measure with. And nothing requires me to say weapon X is on target A and weapon Y is on target B.
I can literally say weapons X, Y, Z will be used against targets A & B and start measuring.

We sort out the details at step 3, but step 2 is for selecting targets and measuring ranges NOT for assigning specific weapons per target

-

Gendif wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Keep in mind that weapon selection is not until step 3, so while you could say you're measuring to target A with weapon X, you actually aren't beholden to selecting weapon X on step 3, so long as at least 1 weapon is selected to shoot target A. Weapon X can fire at something else.
The "weapon being used" could easily just refer to the weapon you are using to measure range NOT necessarily the weapon you will be firing with.

This could inevitably lead to arguments where I use weapon X to measure to target A, giving my opponent "false" information for them to make a tactical decision based on.

Also, also, you can use the same weapon to measure to BOTH targets

-

Danger with that line of thought.

I'd like to use my Missile to measure range from my Knight Valiant to my target. Now that i've determined a legal target No further step checks range. At all. and I fire my super flamer across the battlefield. So clearly that isn't how it works.

This does, however, illustrate the point that if you wait until Step 3 to actually declare what is going where then you get to ignore weapon ranges as the only range check is done in Step 2. This further proves my point of having to disclose weapons in Step 2.

Yo0 determine the range. Presumably the range is in inches, so you'd know exacty what weapons you select in step 3 will meet the requirements of being in range.

In order to determine a weapons range to a target you have to select a weapon and then a target. You cannot measure range without a target.

You then select weapon b and measure to a target

Then weapon C...

Yes you can measure to a target within 12" and if that is the only target you measure to all your weapons fire at that. As i assume you measured each profile to that target as you are required to do

If there is more than one you specify the specific weapon profiles your measureing to each as step 2 specifically requires you to use the weapon profile not a weapon profile. Theres no guesswork you have to measure the specific weapon profiles from your model to the target.

You have to fulfill step 2 before anything in step 3 ocurrs

U02dah4 wrote:
If there is more than one you specify the specific weapon profiles your measureing to each as step 2 specifically requires you to use the weapon profile not a weapon profile. Theres no guesswork you have to measure the specific weapon profiles from your model to the target.

You have to fulfill step 2 before anything in step 3 ocurrs

If I have weapons A, B and C and want to target X & Y, I can do so like this:
I select target X and measure weapons A, B and C
I then select target Y and again measure weapons A, B and C. "THE" weapon to be used is being measured

I have now selected my targets AND selected all weapons to be measured. I have satisfied Step 2. Knight player must now decide to use RIS and on which Knight.
Step 3 is when I ASSIGN each weapon to be fired at which target. I have to shoot at least 1 weapon at each target I selected, but I can assign the weapons as I please.

-

Absolutely you have measured ranges for all weapons to X. therefore all shoot X

You now measure all to Y this is not a range measurement as you have no profiles left to measure a target for and you do not have permission to measure range for an individual profile to two seperate targets

Knight player decides whether or not to use RIS based on all your weapons shooting X

You now progress to step 3

U02dah4 wrote:
Absolutely you have measured ranges for all weapons to X. therefore all shoot X

You now measure all to Y this is not a range measurement as you have no profiles left to measure a target for and you do not have permission to measure range for an individual profile to two seperate targets

Knight player decides whether or not to use RIS based on all your weapons shooting X

You now progress to step 3

wrong....

You can measure whatever you like at any time in the game... to check, to confirm, to weigh up options. It’s not touch-move chess, guys.

U02dah4 wrote:
Absolutely you have measured ranges for all weapons to X. therefore all shoot X

You now measure all to Y this is not a range measurement as you have no profiles left to measure a target for and you do not have permission to measure range for an individual profile to two seperate targets

Knight player decides whether or not to use RIS based on all your weapons shooting X

You now progress to step 3

No

 JohnnyHell wrote:
You can measure whatever you like at any time in the game... to check, to confirm, to weigh up options. It’s not touch-move chess, guys.

You can pre measure whenever you like but measureing range of a weapon to a target is formerly part of step 2 once that target is declared you can't then measure to a different target. Or if you do its just a mesurement not the range measurement outlined in step 2.

Just as you can measure distances for movement at any point but once youve moved the models you have moved them. Sure you can measure after you've moved them but its not part of the movement process

U02dah4 wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
You can measure whatever you like at any time in the game... to check, to confirm, to weigh up options. It’s not touch-move chess, guys.

You can pre measure whenever you like but measureing range of a weapon to a target is formerly part of step 2 once that target is declared you can't then measure to a different target. Or if you do its just a mesurement not the range measurement outlined in step 2.

Just no. You’re imposing limitations not in the rules. Nothing says that by holding your tape measure between two models you lock anything in. That’s just making stuff up.

Holding it no measureing range yes its part of the targeting process

"2. Choose Targets
Having chosen a shooting unit, you must
pick the target unit, or units, for the
attacks. In order to target an enemy unit,
a model from that unit must be within
the Range of the weapon being used (as
listed on its profile) ...."

U02dah4 wrote:
Holding it no measureing range yes its part of the targeting process

"2. Choose Targets
Having chosen a shooting unit, you must
pick the target unit, or units, for the
attacks. In order to target an enemy unit,
a model from that unit must be within
the Range of the weapon being used (as
listed on its profile) ...."

I understand being in range is part of the targeting process, but show me where it says measuring locks you in...

It doesn't picking a target does and as part of picking a target you have to measure to it useing the "Range of the weapon being used (as listed on its profile) "

Note "the weapon being used" not "a weapon" or any weapon with appropriate range. Not measure to all potential targets. Just pick a target and then measure to it useing the specific range of "the weapon being used".

So you can measure to 7 potential targets fine and determine what you could fire at no problem. However when you "pick a target" you measure range to it useing "the weapon"/s you are firing at it then check visibility.

U02dah4 wrote:
It doesn't picking a target does and as part of picking a target you have to measure to it useing the "Range of the weapon being used (as listed on its profile) "

No, you dont have to measure, there is no rule saying i have to measure.

U02dah4 wrote:

Note "the weapon being used" not "a weapon" or any weapon with appropriate range. Not measure to all potential targets. Just pick a target and then measure to it useing the specific range of "the weapon being used".

I can measure anytime i wish. Battle primer first page. Tools of war. But i dont have to.

You can measure distances
whenever you wish.

U02dah4 wrote:

So you can measure to 7 potential targets fine and determine what you could fire at no problem. However when you "pick a target" you measure range to it useing "the weapon"/s you are firing at it then check visibility.

In that case by your logic i fire my flamers at your infantry 36" away i don"t have to measure I can if I wish but theres no rule.


However in the sane world where 9" flamers fire 9"

The rule is:

"2. Choose Targets
Having chosen a shooting unit, you must
pick the target unit, or units, for the
attacks. In order to target an enemy unit,
a model from that unit must be within
the Range of the weapon being used (as
listed on its profile) ...."

In order to determine that a unit is within range of the weapon being used you have to measure in some form.

Im certain most of my opponents wont be happy with me guessing ranges especially incorrectly

Note i have never said you cant measure anytime you want only that you have to measure the range of the weapon you use once you have picked a target per the quoted rule above.

Weapon range isn't checked at any other part of the shooting process and it should be obvious to any wargamer that a guns range is checked at some point

I can just take a look and guess the distance. With some gaming experience a player can tell what the distance is pretty accurate. You can measure the distance if you wish, but I don't have to when I target an enemy unit.

Then you are measureing by eye.

If I have a 48" range weapon and model is 2" away I don't need a tape measure to tell me its within range my eyeball is perfectly capable of a precise enough measurement however I am still meaureing. I just don't need the precision of a tape measure.

If its 36" range and 36"ish model precision of a tape measure is required.

The process doesnt change just because you can measure by eye.

You still have to pick a target and measure to it useing the range of the weapon profile/profiles you are firing at it. Which requires the target/s and weapon profile/s to be selected so your opponent can varify your measurement by eye.

Shooting with a weapon where it's range exceeds 86.5" doesn't require any kind of measuring, because that's the longest distance possible on a 72x48" battlefield.

There is no exemption to the normal process for long range units.

2. Choose Targets
Having chosen a shooting unit, you must
pick the target unit, or units, for the
attacks. In order to target an enemy unit,
a model from that unit must be within
the Range of the weapon being used (as
listed on its profile) ....

So having chosen my deathstrike missile launcher. i pick your knight as a target. I then check if your knight is within 200" as that is its range in the profile. Since that is longer than the battlefield I confirm that it is. however I have still picked a target and deteremined its in range so my opponent knows the weapon and the target. I cannot skip this and not let my opponent know because the target is obviously in range.

"The weapon being used" =/= "The weapon being fired at the target in Step 3"
"The weapon being used" = "The weapon being measured with to select a target at Step 2"

Weapons selection happens at Step 3. END OF.
"The" weapons used in Step 2 are being used for measurement purposes only. There is literally nothing in Step 2 preventing me from using the same Heavy Bolter as "the weapon" to select 2 separate targets.

Common sense and player civility are what prevents you from extending a Flamer from reaching outside it's range at Step 3.
-

What prevents you firing a flamer beyond 9" is the rules at step 2 where you measure range. If civility was the only thing stopping you the tourney scene would be quite different and flamers would be a staple.

At step 2 you have to measure the weapon being used to the target you have picked that happens with each weapon to varify it is in range. What subsequently happens at step 3 is irrelevant to this particular argument becauseing timing wise only the targetting step matters

No you cannot target 3 units with your heavy bolter you pick one target and measure to it then if you have another weapon you pick another or the same target and measure to it.

U02dah4 wrote:
What prevents you firing a flamer beyond 9"

That fact that weapons have ranges that can never be exceeded REGARDLESS of what step you are on. This should be obvious.
You check range at Step 2 to select valid targets. You select the weapons at each target at step 3.

-

And you know whether or not the target is within 9" because of step 2 when this is checked.

2. Choose Targets
Having chosen a shooting unit, you must
pick the target unit, or units, for the
attacks. In order to target an enemy unit,
a model from that unit must be within
the Range of the weapon being used (as
listed on its profile) ....

At his point you have selected which weapon is going to each target in order to measure range.

You cant go i target all 8 units in range of my flamer and measure each.

You still have yet to prove that "the weapon being used" is in direct reference to the weapon being FIRED AT THE TARGET.
As it stands, "the weapon being used" can simply mean "being used to select a valid target".
Nothing about step 2 explicitly commits "the" weapon to "the" target.

Stop added implications that are not there. Or at the very least, prove them please.
And re-quoting the rule over and over again doesn't prove your point.
I have illustrated that the language used does not necessarily mean what you claim.

-

The quoted rule only requires that it be within range. The quoted part itself doesn't actually require measuring.

Question: If I measure 48" of range to target A that's directly behind target B, is target B within 48" range?

Or I plop a Railhead in the dead center of the table. Do I need to measure directly to satisfy "must be within range"?

Bharring wrote:
The quoted rule only requires that it be within range. The quoted part itself doesn't actually require measuring.

Question: If I measure 48" of range to target A that's directly behind target B, is target B within 48" range?

Or I plop a Railhead in the dead center of the table. Do I need to measure directly to satisfy "must be within range"?

In both cases you have to measure however you are likely skipping the specific measurement because you are aware what the outcome will be. You still have to announce where your measureing to and with what weapon. Otherwise you might fire your 48" gun at a target 50" away


2. Choose Targets
Having chosen a shooting unit, you must
pick the target unit, or units, for the
attacks. In order to target an enemy unit,
a model from that unit must be within
the Range of the weapon being used (as
listed on its profile) ....

U02dah4 wrote:
Holding it no measureing range yes its part of the targeting process

"2. Choose Targets
Having chosen a shooting unit, you must
pick the target unit, or units, for the
attacks. In order to target an enemy unit,
a model from that unit must be within
the Range of the weapon being used (as
listed on its profile) ...."

And the person measuring will tell you if the weapon is in range or not. He does not have to tell you what the weapon is until step 3, which is when we are instructed to let the opponent know what weapons are firing at what models. You do not get to force people to declare what weapons are firing before reaching the step actually dedicated to saying what weapons are firing.

 Galef wrote:
You still have yet to prove that "the weapon being used" is in direct reference to the weapon being FIRED AT THE TARGET.
As it stands, "the weapon being used" can simply mean "being used to select a valid target".
Nothing about step 2 explicitly commits "the" weapon to "the" target.

Stop added implications that are not there. Or at the very least, prove them please.
And re-quoting the rule over and over again doesn't prove your point.
I have illustrated that the language used does not necessarily mean what you claim.

-

Says the person claiming that the weapon being used means the weapon being used to select a valid target not the weapon being fired.

If that was the case i select my valid target and range with my ironstorm missile and fire my heavy flamer at it.

Would you please stop adding implications that are not there without quoteing please quote the part of section 2 that enables you to meadure range to more than one target or that defines the weapon being used as to mean something other than the weapon being fired

I quote the rule thats relevant you dont because you cant

U02dah4 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
The quoted rule only requires that it be within range. The quoted part itself doesn't actually require measuring.

Question: If I measure 48" of range to target A that's directly behind target B, is target B within 48" range?

Or I plop a Railhead in the dead center of the table. Do I need to measure directly to satisfy "must be within range"?

In both cases you have to measure however you are likely skipping the specific measurement because you are aware what the outcome will be. You still have to announce where your measureing to and with what weapon.

This is incorrect and always has been incorrect. Please stop propagating falsehoods.

U02dah4 wrote:
] Otherwise you might fire your 48" gun at a target 50" away

And if he tries you are perfectly within your rights to challenge him firing a 48" gun, or the flamer you are so fond of mentioning, at a target 50" away.


Galef has a good point here:

Galef wrote:
You still have yet to prove that "the weapon being used" is in direct reference to the weapon being FIRED AT THE TARGET.
As it stands, "the weapon being used" can simply mean "being used to select a valid target".
Nothing about step 2 explicitly commits "the" weapon to "the" target.

Stop added implications that are not there. Or at the very least, prove them please.
And re-quoting the rule over and over again doesn't prove your point.
I have illustrated that the language used does not necessarily mean what you claim.

You are trying to game the system to force somebody to reveal what weapon they are firing before you have reached the step we are told is when you reveal what weapon you are firing. If you wish to play the rules lawyer game there, then Galef is perfectly within his rights to counter with a rules lawyer move that shuts down your argument. There is no statement in step 2 commiting "the" weapon to "the" target. Just accept that when the rules say step 3 is when you declare what weapons are firing at what targets, they mean exactly that and don't try to force someone to reveal that before step 3.