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It definitely seems unsporting.

If I say "I shoot my melta at your knight" can i deny my opponent the opportunity to rotate ion shields as i've moved to weapon selection.

The logic seems the same. Game your opponent to gain an advantage.

Weapon selection and targetting tend to happen simultaneously as this is the way most players talk.

Step 2 In order to target an enemy unit,
a model from that unit must be within
the Range of the weapon being used (as
listed on its profile)

Note "the weapon" not "A weapon"

You cannot check the range of the weapon unless you have nominated the weapon. Sure you can pre measure but only once that weapon has been selected is distance measured and the unit targetted.

Remember though that Bharring gave had the Knight player asking the shooting player what weapons he was shooting after he had announced what units were being targeted.

IWith what you say, if someone is trying to announce targets and weapons simultaneously the Knight player should get to use RIS since the shooting player is trying to push things past the point where he could declare; you wouldn't have the right to push past step 2 if there's things that the Knight player wants to do at that step.

Remember, though, that Bharring's example was that the shooting player had announced what units were being shot at, then the Knight player asked what weapons were being fired. That's the Knight player moving things to step 3, part the point where he would be able to declare, so he can't argue that he didn't have a chance to use RIS. The Knight player would have to treat it as a learning experience if you didn't give him a warning that he needs to use the strat before you declare weapons, or even just asking if he's ready to move on to the declare weapons stage. Similarly, if you tried pushing past his chance to declare using RIS by announcing weapons at the same time you're declaring targets, he'd be perfectly within his right to insist that he can use RIs as you have to give him a chance to announce it, and you can treat it as a learning experience that you shouldn't declare your weapons before you have to.

If you select a unit with only one weapon to shoot, and it's in range of two knights, and he says "He is going to shoot it's gun at Knight 1" - you can still say "But RIS!".

In that case, he just skipped over you. Since RIS was in response to his target selection, he can't change his target selection. He could change which weapons to fire at which targets he did select - as that comes after RIS. But, in this example, there are no other options he can pick from.

So, if someone picks a squad within range of 2+ Knights, and you're unsure which one you want to RIS on, make sure to confirm that they've made all their target selections before they move on to rolling the dice.

I haven't had to handle this with RIS, but there have been other times I've wanted to know all targets selected by a firer before we started rolling, for other reasons. It's not hard to get clarification from the opponent. Sometimes, you'll need to slow them down.

Most of the time, when I play, targets get selected as weapons get fired. It's sloppy and wrong. But it feels more natural and fun and is usually not a problem. If it's going to be a problem in a particular case, I point it out.

The point is that you have to declare which targets all your weapons will hit before your opponent declares RIS as part of the target selection in part 2 of the shooting phase is measureing from the specific gun to the target.

U02dah4 wrote:
The point is that you have to declare which targets all your weapons will hit before your opponent declares RIS as part of the target selection in part 2 of the shooting phase is measureing from the specific gun to the target.

You declare targets, but you do not declare which weapons are firing at which targets until step 3. You might know, and your opponent might pick up on which ones are firing where as part of the measurement, but they aren't actually declared until step 3. The statement that you measure from the specific gun to the target is incorrect; you measure from the closest part of the base to the base of the target unless the model doesn't have a base, in which case you measure to the closest part of the hull, as stated in the Tools of War sidebar at the beginning of the Battle Primer. You do not measure from the specific weapon.

Part of step 2

" In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be within the Range of the weapon being used (as listed on its profile)"

Ergo you have to measure the range of "the weapon" in step 2 (as listed on its profile). It doesn't say you can do this in secret.

So at step 2 you measure the range of the storm bolter and you measure the range of the lascannon you need to let your opponent know the model weapon profile and target in order to do so.

Why the name of the Emperor GW wont just fix the shooting phase rules to actually work is beyond me but like most of 8th edition mechanics they have some poorly writen sections that contradicts themselfs.

Right now all you can do is agree with your opponents how your going to play or roll off.

U02dah4 wrote:
Part of step 2

" In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be within the Range of the weapon being used (as listed on its profile)"

Ergo you have to measure the range of "the weapon" in step 2 (as listed on its profile). It doesn't say you can do this in secret.

So at step 2 you measure the range of the storm bolter and you measure the range of the lascannon you need to let your opponent know the model weapon profile and target in order to do so.

Based on your interpretation all of Step 3 is completely redundant. Why would they go into detail about choosing the weapon and split firing weapons if you already chose the weapons you're firing in Step 2?

U02dah4 wrote:
Part of step 2

" In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be within the Range of the weapon being used (as listed on its profile)"

Ergo you have to measure the range of "the weapon" in step 2 (as listed on its profile). It doesn't say you can do this in secret.

So at step 2 you measure the range of the storm bolter and you measure the range of the lascannon you need to let your opponent know the model weapon profile and target in order to do so.

Again, that's incorrect.

It states you announce which weapons are firing in step 3. Step 2 is not step 3. You might know which weapon(s) you're firing, and base the range measurement on that, but that doesn't mean you announce which weapon is firing until Step 3. It certainly doesn't say that you measure range from the weapon to the target. If I have 2 weapons with a 36" range, I can measure 36" to a model and not have to tell them which weapon is firing at them (or if it's both) until step 3). Obviously if you only have one weapon with a 36" range and a pistol with a 12" range, and the model you measure to is outside 12", your opponent will know it's not the pistol you're firing if you say the opponent is in range, but you don't actually announce which weapon you are firiing until step 3. You let him know what range you're measuring, but you do not have to state at that step which weapon is firing or reveal what the weapon profile is.



"Distances in Warhammer 40,000 are measured in inches (") [u]between the closest points of the bases of the models you are measuring to and from." (From the Battle Primer)

No statement there that you are making a measurement from the weapion to the target there, and no exception in the shooting rules in the shooting rules saying you actually measure from the weapon to the target. Please stop making rules up.

That it says you check in step 3 is irrelevant.

You have to check in step 2 aswell

"In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be within the Range of the weapon being used (as listed on its profile)"

Note the range of the weapon being used as listed on its profile

So i select a storm bolter i identify the target and measure between the two models i then do a seperate measurement for the same models lascannon i then do a seperate measurement for the plasma gun even though its the same range as the storm bolter. This is information availiable to your opponent so they can varify.

Yes when measureing the range of a weapon you measure from the model with weapons base or hull to the targets base or hull how is this relevant.

No where does it say you may measure the range as listed in the weapons profile to check that its in range but not allow your opponent to varify that profile. No where does it say you may skip this step for weapons with the same range.

If I were your opponent i would insist on varifying each profile seperately at step 2 before moving to step 3


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 deviantduck wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
Part of step 2

" In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be within the Range of the weapon being used (as listed on its profile)"

Ergo you have to measure the range of "the weapon" in step 2 (as listed on its profile). It doesn't say you can do this in secret.

So at step 2 you measure the range of the storm bolter and you measure the range of the lascannon you need to let your opponent know the model weapon profile and target in order to do so.

Based on your interpretation all of Step 3 is completely redundant. Why would they go into detail about choosing the weapon and split firing weapons if you already chose the weapons you're firing in Step 2?

It mostly is redundant its bad ruleswriting RAI you measure range at step 2 and step 3 tells you how to.do it in detail.

However RAW you measure range of weapons at step 2 and then step 3 is mostly a repeat. This is a well known bit of poor writting just like assault weapons not being able to advance and fire because at step 1 you can't choose an advancing unit so you never get to select the assault weapon.

A point people seem to be missing is this discussion is that a unit must fire all of its weapon if able to when selected to shoot in the Shooting phase. You cannot chose not to fire a weapon that is in range.

“1. Choose Unit to Shoot With
In your Shooting phase you can shoot with models armed with ranged weapons. First, you must pick one of your units to shoot with. You may not pick a unit that Advanced or Fell Back this turn, or a unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit. Unless otherwise stated, each model in the unit attacks with all of the ranged weapons it is armed with. After all of the unit’s models have fired, you can choose another unit to shoot with, until all eligible units that you want to shoot with have done so. ”

Excerpt From
Warhammer 40,000: Dark Imperium Enhanced Edition
Games Workshop

I bolded the part that is most overlooked. An example of “otherwise stated” are the Knight Dominus Shield Breaker Missiles with can only fire 1 per turn. This severely impacts Taus missile platforms, as they do not have an “otherwise” clause. In the case of this discussion, if you select a Shadowsword and declare 3 targets, you have to not only shoot all 3 targets, you have to shoot all of your weapons at those 3 targets.

Just saying.

SJ

Oh not that old chestnut...

How does that impact ion shield timing?

U02dah4 wrote:
That it says you check in step 3 is irrelevant.

You have to check in step 2 aswell

"In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be within the Range of the weapon being used (as listed on its profile)"

Note the range of the weapon being used as listed on its profile

So i select a storm bolter i identify the target and measure between the two models i then do a seperate measurement for the same models lascannon i then do a seperate measurement for the plasma gun even though its the same range as the storm bolter. This is information availiable to your opponent so they can varify.

Yes when measureing the range of a weapon you measure from the model with weapons base or hull to the targets base or hull how is this relevant.

No where does it say you may measure the range as listed in the weapons profile to check that its in range but not allow your opponent to varify that profile. No where does it say you may skip this step for weapons with the same range.

If I were your opponent i would insist on varifying each profile seperately at step 2 before moving to step 3

.

In which case I could show you my list of weapons, you can look at the ranges, and guess which weapon I'm firing because of the range I announced. You can probably figure out based on the different ranges of the weapons, but if I have 2 weapons with the same range, I don't have to let you know which one it is I'm using the range for until step 3 when it says I announce which weapons are firing. If I measure using the most restrictive weapon distance, then all weapons will be in range if the most restrictive is in range.

This is why I believe an allied single knight is much more powerful than a detachment of knights. It is VERY easy to never shoot at the 3++ knight and shoot at 5++ knights. With lascannons? They will drop like flies.

 doctortom wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
That it says you check in step 3 is irrelevant.

You have to check in step 2 aswell

"In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be within the Range of the weapon being used (as listed on its profile)"

Note the range of the weapon being used as listed on its profile

So i select a storm bolter i identify the target and measure between the two models i then do a seperate measurement for the same models lascannon i then do a seperate measurement for the plasma gun even though its the same range as the storm bolter. This is information availiable to your opponent so they can varify.

Yes when measureing the range of a weapon you measure from the model with weapons base or hull to the targets base or hull how is this relevant.

No where does it say you may measure the range as listed in the weapons profile to check that its in range but not allow your opponent to varify that profile. No where does it say you may skip this step for weapons with the same range.

If I were your opponent i would insist on varifying each profile seperately at step 2 before moving to step 3

.

In which case I could show you my list of weapons, you can look at the ranges, and guess which weapon I'm firing because of the range I announced. You can probably figure out based on the different ranges of the weapons, but if I have 2 weapons with the same range, I don't have to let you know which one it is I'm using the range for until step 3 when it says I announce which weapons are firing. If I measure using the most restrictive weapon distance, then all weapons will be in range if the most restrictive is in range.

In your example I would ask which weapon profile or profiles you are using to determine the legality of your target choice. Since you have to determine targets based on the weapons you will actually use to shoot this lets me know what you’re about to announce in step 3. Nothing in the rules says you’re allowed to hide this information and as your opponent I’m allowed to ask without missing the opportunity to use Rotate Ion Shields correctly.

Gendif wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
That it says you check in step 3 is irrelevant.

You have to check in step 2 aswell

"In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be within the Range of the weapon being used (as listed on its profile)"

Note the range of the weapon being used as listed on its profile

So i select a storm bolter i identify the target and measure between the two models i then do a seperate measurement for the same models lascannon i then do a seperate measurement for the plasma gun even though its the same range as the storm bolter. This is information availiable to your opponent so they can varify.

Yes when measureing the range of a weapon you measure from the model with weapons base or hull to the targets base or hull how is this relevant.

No where does it say you may measure the range as listed in the weapons profile to check that its in range but not allow your opponent to varify that profile. No where does it say you may skip this step for weapons with the same range.

If I were your opponent i would insist on varifying each profile seperately at step 2 before moving to step 3

.

In which case I could show you my list of weapons, you can look at the ranges, and guess which weapon I'm firing because of the range I announced. You can probably figure out based on the different ranges of the weapons, but if I have 2 weapons with the same range, I don't have to let you know which one it is I'm using the range for until step 3 when it says I announce which weapons are firing. If I measure using the most restrictive weapon distance, then all weapons will be in range if the most restrictive is in range.

In your example I would ask which weapon profile or profiles you are using to determine the legality of your target choice. Since you have to determine targets based on the weapons you will actually use to shoot this lets me know what you’re about to announce in step 3. Nothing in the rules says you’re allowed to hide this information and as your opponent I’m allowed to ask without missing the opportunity to use Rotate Ion Shields correctly.

I would tell you that I measured for a weapon with the fange I stated. I'd let you look at the datasheet to see of I have one or more than one with that range. As I am not required at step 2 to state which weapon is firing, I do not do so, only the range of the weapons. My only requirement is that I must fire a weapon with that range at the model. I can fire more than one weapon if I have at least that range with my other weapons.


Playing with your interpretation, step 3 is unnecessary.

In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be within the Range of the weapon being used (as listed on its profile)

This is the crux of the debate.

This does not say within A weapon's range or ANY weapons range but instead THE weapons range. Specifically "...the weapon being used...".

You are required to prove your choice is legal for the weapons you're about to use and that tells your opponent how your shots are being divided before Step 3.

Step 3 exists more for units with multiples of a weapon.

Let's use the 2 knights example.

If I have a Shadowsword then since I can only fire the main gun at one of them you know who's taking the big hit and can rotate the shields.

What if instead I have 10 Hellblasters. I declare them both and range them with the Plasma WhateverTheyreCalleds since the unit is only using1 weapon profile i'm good so far. I'm now committed to shooting both knights with my Plasma but I've got 10 guys and you don't know how i'm splitting the fire, if you rotate then guess what? I'm splitting them 9 and 1 and those 9 might just overcharge to try and bring down that knight.

I prove it's legal the next step, the one that tells me that's the step to say what weapons are targeting what models.

I do not have to name weapons before the step that I am told is the step that I name weapons.

 doctortom wrote:
I prove it's legal the next step, the one that tells me that's the step to say what weapons are targeting what models.

I do not have to name weapons before the step that I am told is the step that I name weapons.

I will concede that nothing forces you to be upfront with the information but if asked the question, "Which weapon or weapons did you check the range of to determine the legality of this target?" you would need to answer that honestly and with the weapons you're about to declare in step 3 because you are required to make sure it is within the range of the weapon you intend to use. If when asked that question you don't mention a weapon you then say is shooting that model then you've targeted that model incorrectly as you did not check the range for that weapon.

Answering "At least one that has the range I have measured for" is answering honestly. You'd be free to look at the datasheet and deduce if possible what weapon it is.

Even if you aren't required to share, are you required to decide?

You're required to decide to fire at least one weapon at the model, with a range at least that of the range measured.

 doctortom wrote:
Answering "At least one that has the range I have measured for" is answering honestly. You'd be free to look at the datasheet and deduce if possible what weapon it is.

Which only invites the response "Which one?"

You can dodge it all you want but i'm allowed to ask what's going on and the game won't go anywhere until you answer. I'll just keep pointing to Shooting Step 2 and asking for you to clarify how you're fulfilling it.

Anyway, now that we've gone in a circle about twice now i'm thinking this won't go anywhere productive.

And, Bharring, yes you have to decide in Step 2. Why? Because that's when you check the range for that weapon to its target. See my example above with Hellblasters for what that means Step 3 is really about.

doctortom wrote:
Answering "At least one that has the range I have measured for" is answering honestly. You'd be free to look at the datasheet and deduce if possible what weapon it is.


Its answeing honestly it is not answering sufficiently.

You must measure for each weapon useing the range in that weapons profile. So if I wanted to varify you have to tell me which profile you are measureing to which target.

Its 36" guess which is not sufficient to do this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 doctortom wrote:
You're required to decide to fire at least one weapon at the model, with a range at least that of the range measured.

No you required at step two to measure to the target useing the weapons specific profile

Keep in mind that weapon selection is not until step 3, so while you could say you're measuring to target A with weapon X, you actually aren't beholden to selecting weapon X on step 3, so long as at least 1 weapon is selected to shoot target A. Weapon X can fire at something else.
The "weapon being used" could easily just refer to the weapon you are using to measure range NOT necessarily the weapon you will be firing with.

This could inevitably lead to arguments where I use weapon X to measure to target A, giving my opponent "false" information for them to make a tactical decision based on.

Also, also, you can use the same weapon to measure to BOTH targets at step 2

-

 Galef wrote:
Keep in mind that weapon selection is not until step 3, so while you could say you're measuring to target A with weapon X, you actually aren't beholden to selecting weapon X on step 3, so long as at least 1 weapon is selected to shoot target A. Weapon X can fire at something else.
The "weapon being used" could easily just refer to the weapon you are using to measure range NOT necessarily the weapon you will be firing with.

This could inevitably lead to arguments where I use weapon X to measure to target A, giving my opponent "false" information for them to make a tactical decision based on.

Also, also, you can use the same weapon to measure to BOTH targets

-

Danger with that line of thought.

I'd like to use my Missile to measure range from my Knight Valiant to my target. Now that i've determined a legal target No further step checks range. At all. and I fire my super flamer across the battlefield. So clearly that isn't how it works.

This does, however, illustrate the point that if you wait until Step 3 to actually declare what is going where then you get to ignore weapon ranges as the only range check is done in Step 2. This further proves my point of having to disclose weapons in Step 2.

Gendif wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Keep in mind that weapon selection is not until step 3, so while you could say you're measuring to target A with weapon X, you actually aren't beholden to selecting weapon X on step 3, so long as at least 1 weapon is selected to shoot target A. Weapon X can fire at something else.
The "weapon being used" could easily just refer to the weapon you are using to measure range NOT necessarily the weapon you will be firing with.

This could inevitably lead to arguments where I use weapon X to measure to target A, giving my opponent "false" information for them to make a tactical decision based on.

Also, also, you can use the same weapon to measure to BOTH targets

-

Danger with that line of thought.

I'd like to use my Missile to measure range from my Knight Valiant to my target. Now that i've determined a legal target No further step checks range. At all. and I fire my super flamer across the battlefield. So clearly that isn't how it works.

This does, however, illustrate the point that if you wait until Step 3 to actually declare what is going where then you get to ignore weapon ranges as the only range check is done in Step 2. This further proves my point of having to disclose weapons in Step 2.

Seconded. How do you measure range useing the profile of a specific weapon if you have not chosen that weapon. I like the 48" flamer as a good counter argument.

So you declare with your shortest ranged weapon that can hit both targets.
Step 2 doesn't require a separate weapon per target. You can use the same one to measure to legal targets.
At step 3, you can now select any weapons that have AT LEAST the range of the weapon you measured with and you need to fire at least 1 weapon per declared target

-

 Galef wrote:
So you declare with your shortest ranged weapon that can hit both targets.
Step 2 doesn't require a separate weapon per target. You can use the same one to measure to legal targets.
At step 3, you can now select any weapons that have AT LEAST the range of the weapon you measured with and you need to fire at least 1 weapon per declared target

-

Or check every weapon to both targets. Both targets are in range of all weapons. End of Step 2. Would you like to use RIS? Ok. Use it. On to Step 3.