New 40K Big FAQ 2

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**Stux**

There are timing issues for that in the current ruleset though, as overwatch is done before the actual charge.

Not totally insurmountable, but could make things messy.

**ikeulhu**

They could have made it so you just have to declare charges against any units you are flying over so that they get overwatch when doing so, and that you do not ignore vertical distance in the charge phase. Doing so would have addressed both the issues they wanted to handle in a much more sensible way, but instead we got the usual GW over reaction...

**koooaei**

Regarding all that charge stuff. Is there any restriction for regular no-fly units to move to second floors in straight lines only?
For example, your average marine stands 3" away from a ruin and there is an average guardsman on the 2d floor 3" above the ground. Does a marine need to move 3" towards the ruin and than 3" up or can he move 4" directly towards his goal?

**Ice_can**

koooaei wrote:
Regarding all that charge stuff. Is there any restriction for regular no-fly units to move to second floors in straight lines only?
For example, your average marine stands 3" away from a ruin and there is an average guardsman on the 2d floor 3" above the ground. Does a marine need to move 3" towards the ruin and than 3" up or can he move 4" directly towards his goal?

He needs to end his charge move placed within 1 inch of a model he declared a charge against.
He also has to move 3 to the ruin then 3 inch up.

Where it gets more complicated because GW's.
If he starts his charge within the ruin the rules seem to the move to be measured point to point.

**koooaei**

But where is it written that he must move 3" towards a ruin and than 3" up. From what i see, a model can move in any direction.

**leopard**

koooaei wrote:
But where is it written that he must move 3" towards a ruin and than 3" up. From what i see, a model can move in any direction.

now there is a can of worms

I would, humbly, suggest that the movement rules cover movement on the table, the bit on ruins covers the vertical elevation change - otherwise all models could just elevate like a Dalek faced with stairs and be wherever they want

**Marmatag**

Ravagers are good but they have to arrive turn 2 now. You can't drop them on the table turn 1... these guys are made of paper and will die to bolter fire.

A nerf isn't necessary. A dark eldar army doesn't put out a lot of firepower that isn't poisoned. And poisoned against 3+ 2W is a joke, you're not killing anything.

Remember how bad Dark Eldar were pre-codex... worse than everything else in the game.

**Martel732**

They are not made of paper. They are still broken as feth.

T5/5++/10W is actually pretty good. Especially as people are stocking lascannons back in b/c of that cover strat...

**Marmatag**

Sorry but in a meta where Knights exist, it isn't good enough.

Some of the DE players I know don't even run disintigrators anymore, because they're ineffective against Knights, and other tanks. And wounding T7 on 3s versus 5s is a big deal.

Ravagers are essentially the one way Dark Eldar can kill elite infantry. Without them, you could deep strike in your primaris and win every time. Think about it. lol

**Martel732**

They work just fine after the doom hits. Also, only one IK can have 3++.

IKs big flaw for the most part is that their shooting sucks. Castellan is the exception, and its getting its balls racked in CA for sure.

Current dissy cannons are good vs everything in an Eldar soup list.

**Marmatag**

Martel732 wrote:
They work just fine after the doom hits.

IKs big flaw for the most part is that their shooting sucks. Castellan is the exception, and its getting its balls racked in CA for sure.

You should feel bad for this post.

The little knights are definitely baller status and can curb stomp things into oblivion. If you're playing people who only use their knights in the shooting phase, and ignore the 12x (or, 15x gallant) stomps hitting on 3s i don't know what to tell you.

If the problem is doom or jinx that should be adjusted not the Ravager. Right? Although I still disagree with you, as DE have essentially no access to wound rerolls outside of a crap relic.

**Martel732**

Drukhari don't get stomped unless they want to get stomped. Or they send in their super cheap T6 4W 4++ models. And then your gallants cry.

The little knights are okay, but nowhere near as good as Drukhari units at murder.

BTW, I'm never going to feel bad about anything I post about a GW game.

**Marmatag**

Martel732 wrote:
Drukhari don't get stomped unless they want to get stomped. Or they send in their super cheap T6 4W 4++ models.

The little knights are okay, but nowhere near as good as Drukhari units at murder.

Well now we're discussing prophets of flesh which produce Grotesques and Talos that are probably too strong for their points because of the 4++ and extra toughness. In that sense, I do agree. But this is a step away from Ravagers completely.

Let's be careful when constructing this DE boogyman list.

1. Grotesques means a detachment of Haemonculous
2. Vect means a detachment of Kabals
3. Doom/Jinx means a detachment of Eldar

Remember, too, Vect was nerfed, so people who were doing this with 1 auxiliary of kabalite warriors for Vect won't get that anymore once they die.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is my current list:

Brigade
Archon x3
Kabalites x6
Ravagers x3
Mandrakes x3
Scourges x3
Venoms x3
Raiders x2

Auxiliary
Farseer Skyrunner

I had to add the Skyrunner. Every other table has super heavies on it. Acting like you don't need an answer to super heavies at nearly every table is disingenuous. All of the anti-Knight firepower is flatly more effective against Ravagers. They die fast man. Bananathug and I were at a tournament recently and i counted 11 super heavies. I encountered 5 in my games.

FWIW I can't even play Tyranids anymore. That army in its entirety has no answer to super heavies.

**Martel732**

Ravagers end my game from 36" away. IKs, other than castellan, can never do that.

I can still kinda throw smash capts at IKs.

**Marmatag**

Martel732 wrote:
Ravagers end my game from 36" away. IKs, other than castellan, can never do that.

Pfft, Wardens, Crusaders?

If you're not encountering an Endless Fury you're playing in a clownshoes meta. That gun MELTS. 14 shots, rolls of 6 produce 2 hits instead of 1. (Note: Rolls of 6, so -1 doesn't affect it like it does Tesla). If it's house raven things are even worse. By itself that gun is better than 2 Ravagers, even without rerolls.

**bananathug**

Yeah and at that same tourney one of your stupid raiders killed my 3++ custode bike captain with overwatch and my heavily priamris force (DW + custodes + BA) got the pleasure of facing 2x dark eldar armies with enough disi cannons to blot out the sun...

But yeah, doom is mandatory for DE in this meta. But once you have it your shooting is crazy effective. The 3++ castillian isn't as much of a problem for your guys (once doomed/jinxed) as it is for the rest of us but all the t8 does hurt your shooting output a lot vs lists with 3+ knights.

Eldar flyers are also really good. Those crimson exarch planes put the hurt on those 5++ knights and native -2 to hit going up to -3 they can pretty survive anything now that smash captains are an endangered species.

Hopefully CA does something about the knight on every other table meta (especially now that I can't throw BA smash captains at them, although as many failed charges w/ re-rolls I end up with I'm glad this crutch is going away).

Either way, the FAQ didn't do much to knock down the stuff that was dominating the meta nor did it do much to help the stuff struggling (except Tau, I think they will be more in meta). Hopefully CA is more aggressive but that's 3ish months away.

I'm not sure about the CQC knights though. They have too many predators and with screens being as strong as they are I still can't see any reason to run anything other than a castillian. They do work well against certain builds (DE) but the other meta lists pop them pretty easily.

**Marmatag**

Well that was a lucky overwatch roll. 6 to hit, 5 to wound, failed 3++, 6 damage. That's super rare and an extreme edge case.

Ravagers are a great counter to primaris, specifically. But, that doesn't make them broken. Many armies have counters... it's just unfortunate you ran into the only 2 Dark Eldar players at that event.

Things would have been worse for you against an Endless Fury though.

Doom and Jinx are amazing powers. I'll agree with that.

Who knows maybe they'll release Jaghatai Khan as a Dark Eldar primarch.

FWIW a House Raven Imperial Knight /w Endless Fury forces ~11 saves on Primaris, even at T5, with just that one gun. Then he has a RFBC, and the subsequent 12 stomps.

**Galas**

This thread has become a "No, this stuff is even more OP!"

Girls, girls... all of you are OP. If Dark Eldar are countered by IK that does not mean Dark Eldar are thrash. What kind of reasoning is that?

**Marmatag**

Galas wrote:
This thread has become a "No, this stuff is even more OP!"

Girls, girls... all of you are OP. If Dark Eldar are countered by IK that does not mean Dark Eldar are thrash. What kind of reasoning is that?

No one is saying that, though.

The point here is that the meta is shaped by ~4 lists, it doesn't make sense to declare one army overpowered because it beats a low tier army.

Ravagers kill primaris. This statement is true, but it doesn't prove they're OP. I crush eldar soup with my Tyranids. Does that make Tyranids OP?

**Galas**

You can declare an army overpowered when mathematic, tournament results, and emphirical experience shows it.

The fact is that the only armies that make to the tops are Eldar Soup, Chaos Soup and Imperial Soup, all of them with very specific components.

And those components are not even 5% of the game.

**Marmatag**

Galas wrote:
You can declare an army overpowered when mathematic, tournament results, and emphirical experience shows it.

The fact is that the only armies that make to the tops are Eldar Soup, Chaos Soup and Imperial Soup, all of them with very specific components.

And those components are not even 5% of the game.

This is a ridiculous oversimplification.

If Imperial Soup is top tier, Marines are fine then. Right?

**Bharring**

There were more PA Marines in the top 10 at NOVA than there were CWE guys!

**Galas**

What have Imperial Soup being top tier has to do with Space Marines?

You know what, nevermind. At this point this kind of threads, when dont enter a "Imperial guard is OP" "no, it isn't" just devolve into people arguing what, from the OP bucket, is more OP than the rest.

**Martel732**

Marmatag wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Ravagers end my game from 36" away. IKs, other than castellan, can never do that.

Pfft, Wardens, Crusaders?

If you're not encountering an Endless Fury you're playing in a clownshoes meta. That gun MELTS. 14 shots, rolls of 6 produce 2 hits instead of 1. (Note: Rolls of 6, so -1 doesn't affect it like it does Tesla). If it's house raven things are even worse. By itself that gun is better than 2 Ravagers, even without rerolls.

Two ravagers have 18 shots wounding on the same number, hitting on the same number, with better AP. And they can hold two objectives while doing this, not just one.

**bananathug**

I think his point is eldar soup is S tier (along with knight/guard soup, craft worlds and chaos soup) and plain old DE is just A tier (along with death guard, knights and ???). B tier (tau, guard, TS, crazy bad faction builds ie tesseract vaults, brain bugs and screens or mw spam marines) then the rest of the "non-competitive" armies are fighting for the C,D and grey knight tiers.

At least that's how I've experienced it. The FAQ did little to push down S tier or push up non-competitive tier. Hopefully CA does the heavy lifting. But I do agree with Galas in that just because your army isn't S tier doesn't mean that it's not powerful.

Pushing down both the S and A tiers would go a long way towards getting the game to a balanced state. There will always be an element of rock-paper-scissors and some armies will be better than others but right now we're playing wet tissue paper(everyone else)-gun(a-b)-nuclear bomb (s).

**Martel732**

Okay. But I'd still rate mono DE far ahead of mono IK because of table control and so many crazy undercosted options.

**vipoid**

Reemule wrote:
I’m always surprised that people think soup was going to get killed in a single ruling.

Soup is going to die a death of 1K cuts.

Except that Soup didn't receive a single cut in the FAQ.

And before anyone says it - no, you're not allowed to count rulings that hurt mono-armies and soup in equal measure because that's not a nerf to soup, it's just a general nerf to everything.

**Bharring**

The CP regen change at least hurt soup more than mono.

The primary use of CP regen was to power CP-depedent books (IK, BA) with regen from books that can't do as much with CP (IG).

Mono-IG is mostly unaffected by the change: a mono IG list with plenty of CP to spare isn't much less powerful than the same IG list with twice as many CP - IG just doesn't need it as much.

Similarly, mono-IK and mono-BA are practically unaffected by the change. How many CP are they going to lose out on?

Now, that alone isn't going to do substantial damage to soup. And I'm blanking on other things that hurt soup.

Sidenote: the Corsairs change techncially helped Soup, because each individual Corsair unit - even Troops - doesn't cost 1CP anymore. However, not only are they completely irrelevant competitively, but also that change helped Mono-corsairs much more than soup-corsiars: you can now field more than 3 units in a mono-Corsairs army! (still terrible, though.) So that change would *technically* promote mono over soup!

**Asmodios**

vipoid wrote:
Reemule wrote:
I’m always surprised that people think soup was going to get killed in a single ruling.

Soup is going to die a death of 1K cuts.

Except that Soup didn't receive a single cut in the FAQ.

And before anyone says it - no, you're not allowed to count rulings that hurt mono-armies and soup in equal measure because that's not a nerf to soup, it's just a general nerf to everything.

While technically I do believe it hurts soup slightly more then mono builds the FAQ didn't do nearly enough to hurt the power of soup and we are still going to see 10/10 soup builds in the top 10 of every major tournament (unless the ork codex is something special which i hope it is).

**Karol**

Similarly, mono-IK and mono-BA are practically unaffected by the change. How many CP are they going to lose out on?

you must not be serious. Do you know how many CP both those armies needed? They had to run the IG CP generators, and their own to stay efficient for 4-5 turns. Without them they run out of CP turn 1-2. And while against weak or bad armies a first or second turn win is possible, it is not the case when facing good armies.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asmodios wrote:

While technically I do believe it hurts soup slightly more then mono builds the FAQ didn't do nearly enough to hurt the power of soup and we are still going to see 10/10 soup builds in the top 10 of every major tournament (unless the ork codex is something special which i hope it is).

Ok, lets say mono knights are maybe playable. Do you think BAs are going to exist as an army after the cpt nerf? Or RG lists or AL ?