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Mono knights are absolutely playable. It just doesn't make sense though to add another armiger when you could bring an entire guard battalion for the same cost.

The idea of "mono lists" is something that exists solely on dakka.

 Marmatag wrote:
Mono knights are absolutely playable. It just doesn't make sense though to add another armiger when you could bring an entire guard battalion for the same cost.

The idea of "mono lists" is something that exists solely on dakka.

Or in like... 80% of the stores, clubs, etc... out there outside the ITC east coast tournament meta?
Soup are the mayority here in big tournaments, but even in those you see plenty of mono lists. But we don't use ITC.

Karol wrote:

Similarly, mono-IK and mono-BA are practically unaffected by the change. How many CP are they going to lose out on?

you must not be serious. Do you know how many CP both those armies needed? They had to run the IG CP generators, and their own to stay efficient for 4-5 turns. Without them they run out of CP turn 1-2. And while against weak or bad armies a first or second turn win is possible, it is not the case when facing good armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asmodios wrote:


While technically I do believe it hurts soup slightly more then mono builds the FAQ didn't do nearly enough to hurt the power of soup and we are still going to see 10/10 soup builds in the top 10 of every major tournament (unless the ork codex is something special which i hope it is).

Ok, lets say mono knights are maybe playable. Do you think BAs are going to exist as an army after the cpt nerf? Or RG lists or AL ?

Wait, you are saying: "This change has nerfed my mono BA because it needed to soup with guards" ? Aren't you actually agreeing with him then? The CP nerf is first of all a nerf to soup and IG, other mono codici are almost unaffected, he is right.

Also, i don't understand those that say that souping has not impacted top lists because they will just discard one of the detachments and run double IG brigade to fuel a castellan.

It's not like this is something that they couldn't do before. They didn't do it because it was a weaker version of those lists. So this is by definition a nerf.

Also, this change is clearly reducing the gap between mono armies and soup armies. If your answer to the nerf is "Ok fine, i will just bring more guards", then this means that your "soup" is becoming more similar to a mono IG list. Since that soup is still the top of the meta (probably) and the mono IG is probably the top of mono dex meta, this means that mono dex meta and soup meta are getting closer by definition.

The "death to a thousand cuts" concept is quite at work here.

Karol wrote:

Similarly, mono-IK and mono-BA are practically unaffected by the change. How many CP are they going to lose out on?

you must not be serious. Do you know how many CP both those armies needed? They had to run the IG CP generators, and their own to stay efficient for 4-5 turns. Without them they run out of CP turn 1-2. And while against weak or bad armies a first or second turn win is possible, it is not the case when facing good armies.

What you are saying here is that BA are a one trick pony and that trick was the Smash Capt, now nerfed, like it was the only unit in the BA book. I'm pretty sure there were other units in there.

Now you have to consider your options and use your CP wisely, instead of just spamming the same Strats every turn, Boohoo. Oh and you can't win by turn 3? how sad for you.

For the record, I play a mono SM (RG sometimes) list. Smash Captains have fallen to my Mercy Squad of Assault Marines + LT (Mercy) all with Chainswords + 3 plas (LT, Sgt, Spc). They have also been victims of my tarantulas with Assault Cannons. As for screens, They seem easy enough to plow through even without templates. You'd be surprised how many people give up when their Smash is taken off the board.

 Marmatag wrote:
Ravagers are good but they have to arrive turn 2 now. You can't drop them on the table turn 1... these guys are made of paper and will die to bolter fire.

A nerf isn't necessary. A dark eldar army doesn't put out a lot of firepower that isn't poisoned. And poisoned against 3+ 2W is a joke, you're not killing anything.

Remember how bad Dark Eldar were pre-codex... worse than everything else in the game.

Well all that poisoning that floored my ork army last time would have killed 64 3+ W2 models...(calculated how many models I lost, divided it by 5/6 to see how many wounds it needed to cause to get past 6+, then divide that by 6 to get how many primaris models died). How many 3+ 2W models you face anyway?

And that was DE army with tons of dark lances as it was designed more with knights in mind...Hardly ideal for splatting boyz and grots.

Spoletta wrote:



Wait, you are saying: "This change has nerfed my mono BA because it needed to soup with guards" ? Aren't you actually agreeing with him then? The CP nerf is first of all a nerf to soup and IG, other mono codici are almost unaffected, he is right.

Also, i don't understand those that say that souping has not impacted top lists because they will just discard one of the detachments and run double IG brigade to fuel a castellan.

It's not like this is something that they couldn't do before. They didn't do it because it was a weaker version of those lists. So this is by definition a nerf.

Also, this change is clearly reducing the gap between mono armies and soup armies. If your answer to the nerf is "Ok fine, i will just bring more guards", then this means that your "soup" is becoming more similar to a mono IG list. Since that soup is still the top of the meta (probably) and the mono IG is probably the top of mono dex meta, this means that mono dex meta and soup meta are getting closer by definition.

The "death to a thousand cuts" concept is quite at work here.

It is not a nerf to soup, because a soup player doesn't play any faction. A BA player can't just jump and decide starting tomorrow he will play eldar, may as well tell him to play AoS. What I was saying was that BA got nerfed two or three times this edition, and each time GW made the army list smaller and smaller. the last BA "army" was limited to scouts and cpts, and now they do not even have that. Ah and I don't play BA.

tneva82 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Ravagers are good but they have to arrive turn 2 now. You can't drop them on the table turn 1... these guys are made of paper and will die to bolter fire.

A nerf isn't necessary. A dark eldar army doesn't put out a lot of firepower that isn't poisoned. And poisoned against 3+ 2W is a joke, you're not killing anything.

Remember how bad Dark Eldar were pre-codex... worse than everything else in the game.

Well all that poisoning that floored my ork army last time would have killed 64 3+ W2 models...(calculated how many models I lost, divided it by 5/6 to see how many wounds it needed to cause to get past 6+, then divide that by 6 to get how many primaris models died). How many 3+ 2W models you face anyway?

And that was DE army with tons of dark lances as it was designed more with knights in mind...Hardly ideal for splatting boyz and grots.

I strongly suspect that the poison weapons were not what actually killed your orks. You have suffered 1152 poison shots, which would mean 6 turns of full firepwer in rapid fire range of 96 poison weapons. I find this quite impossible.

 helgrenze wrote:


What you are saying here is that BA are a one trick pony and that trick was the Smash Capt, now nerfed, like it was the only unit in the BA book. I'm pretty sure there were other units in there.

Now you have to consider your options and use your CP wisely, instead of just spamming the same Strats every turn, Boohoo. Oh and you can't win by turn 3? how sad for you.

For the record, I play a mono SM (RG sometimes) list. Smash Captains have fallen to my Mercy Squad of Assault Marines + LT (Mercy) all with Chainswords + 3 plas (LT, Sgt, Spc). They have also been victims of my tarantulas with Assault Cannons. As for screens, They seem easy enough to plow through even without templates. You'd be surprised how many people give up when their Smash is taken off the board.

Maybe there were. I know the guy who had a BA army around my store had jump pack dudes, death company etc. All the stuff was killed off. Sure the codex has units listed., but so do GK, and no one would say that just because the GK codex has 20+ options to pick from it has a rich pool of units to pick from.

Anything post FAQ BA players can build is a worse version of an ultramarine list. And IMO it ain't fair, specially when GW nerfs the things that make the BA theme and which GW shaped the codex around. If the GW decided that stuff was too good and required changing, they are in full right to do so. It aint the players games, it is GWs. But they should give BA players something in return. They should kill a faction, and leave it for God knows how long in the dump. I mean where can people expect a fully update BA codex? next edition and that is a maybe, because GW has the tendency to copy paste their books, so they may as well end up with a codex that is the copy of the nerf book they have right now. It happened to GK three times since 6th ed, from what I have been told.

Karol wrote:

Spoletta wrote:



Wait, you are saying: "This change has nerfed my mono BA because it needed to soup with guards" ? Aren't you actually agreeing with him then? The CP nerf is first of all a nerf to soup and IG, other mono codici are almost unaffected, he is right.

Also, i don't understand those that say that souping has not impacted top lists because they will just discard one of the detachments and run double IG brigade to fuel a castellan.

It's not like this is something that they couldn't do before. They didn't do it because it was a weaker version of those lists. So this is by definition a nerf.

Also, this change is clearly reducing the gap between mono armies and soup armies. If your answer to the nerf is "Ok fine, i will just bring more guards", then this means that your "soup" is becoming more similar to a mono IG list. Since that soup is still the top of the meta (probably) and the mono IG is probably the top of mono dex meta, this means that mono dex meta and soup meta are getting closer by definition.

The "death to a thousand cuts" concept is quite at work here.

It is not a nerf to soup, because a soup player doesn't play any faction. A BA player can't just jump and decide starting tomorrow he will play eldar, may as well tell him to play AoS. What I was saying was that BA got nerfed two or three times this edition, and each time GW made the army list smaller and smaller. the last BA "army" was limited to scouts and cpts, and now they do not even have that. Ah and I don't play BA.

BA players were not nerfed (by this particular change i mean, the increase in cost of the stratagem and the nerf to fly surely hurts them).

The fact that they were dependant on an unlimited amount of CP to work which came from souping, is a problem of the faction. The fact that this souping is no longer so rewarding is a nerf of a soup, not of a mono BA dex.

Also, it is false that soups have no faction and they can switch. An imperial soup surely cannot switch to an aeldari soup. This change has impacted all imperial soups. All of them. So yes, it is a nerf to soups, in particular to imperial soups. They can't simply switch to an alternative build, all the best alternatives have been nuked by this change. Now if you want to keep the old concept "Loads of cheap CPs to fuel powerful strats" which was the basis of these kinds of lists, you need 2 detachments of guards to fuel one of something else, while before with one detachment of guards you could fuel 2 detachments of something else. Doesn't matter how you put it, this is a nerf.

Take any soup list that comes out after this change and pit it against an old IG/BA/IK list pre change. I have no idea which will be the new lists, but i can tell that they will have zero chances against the old lists. This is a nerf to soup. Period.

Spoletta wrote:
I strongly suspect that the poison weapons were not what actually killed your orks. You have suffered 1152 poison shots, which would mean 6 turns of full firepwer in rapid fire range of 96 poison weapons. I find this quite impossible.

Well dark lances sure as hell can't kill 250 models in 4 turn. Good luck with that! Not even when he had the luxury of using 9 dark lances to shoot at orks just for fun of it.

Those venoms loaded up with splinter cannons and splinter rifles and all rapid firing rerolling 1's to hit and whatnot plus poison that wounds on 2+ etc racks up.

If it's not poison and if it's not dark lances what it was?-) The orks died. That's a fact. He didn't have other types of guns to note. Maybe 2 disintegrators. Only h2h he did was 5 or so warriors that charged for some reason to my orks rather than wait for me to charge(they were doomed anyway. 20 orks behind, 30 orks ahead, no way to flee...) but they didn't kill even single ork. Only other h2h in the game was my orks that swamped one raider(the one the warriors were) but that didn't even result in explosion that killed any orks.

Morale? LD30 and judicious use of strategem kept mostly intact. Couple d3 wounds from autofail but fairly minimal from there.

Karol wrote:
Maybe there were. I know the guy who had a BA army around my store had jump pack dudes, death company etc. All the stuff was killed off. Sure the codex has units listed., but so do GK, and no one would say that just because the GK codex has 20+ options to pick from it has a rich pool of units to pick from.

Anything post FAQ BA players can build is a worse version of an ultramarine list. And IMO it ain't fair, specially when GW nerfs the things that make the BA theme and which GW shaped the codex around. If the GW decided that stuff was too good and required changing, they are in full right to do so. It aint the players games, it is GWs. But they should give BA players something in return. They should kill a faction, and leave it for God knows how long in the dump. I mean where can people expect a fully update BA codex? next edition and that is a maybe, because GW has the tendency to copy paste their books, so they may as well end up with a codex that is the copy of the nerf book they have right now. It happened to GK three times since 6th ed, from what I have been told.

Ok, maybe I am missing something here. You care to list how the BA have been neutered in such a way that they are unplayable? I'm just not seeing it. I can only find a couple changes to the BA book listed in the FAQ, and yes I know there are a quite a few changes to the BRB and all.
So, How exactly have the BA been neutered to the point of effectively Squatting them?

Spoletta wrote:

Karol wrote:

Spoletta wrote:



Wait, you are saying: "This change has nerfed my mono BA because it needed to soup with guards" ? Aren't you actually agreeing with him then? The CP nerf is first of all a nerf to soup and IG, other mono codici are almost unaffected, he is right.

Also, i don't understand those that say that souping has not impacted top lists because they will just discard one of the detachments and run double IG brigade to fuel a castellan.

It's not like this is something that they couldn't do before. They didn't do it because it was a weaker version of those lists. So this is by definition a nerf.

Also, this change is clearly reducing the gap between mono armies and soup armies. If your answer to the nerf is "Ok fine, i will just bring more guards", then this means that your "soup" is becoming more similar to a mono IG list. Since that soup is still the top of the meta (probably) and the mono IG is probably the top of mono dex meta, this means that mono dex meta and soup meta are getting closer by definition.

The "death to a thousand cuts" concept is quite at work here.

It is not a nerf to soup, because a soup player doesn't play any faction. A BA player can't just jump and decide starting tomorrow he will play eldar, may as well tell him to play AoS. What I was saying was that BA got nerfed two or three times this edition, and each time GW made the army list smaller and smaller. the last BA "army" was limited to scouts and cpts, and now they do not even have that. Ah and I don't play BA.

BA players were not nerfed (by this particular change i mean, the increase in cost of the stratagem and the nerf to fly surely hurts them).

The fact that they were dependant on an unlimited amount of CP to work which came from souping, is a problem of the faction. The fact that this souping is no longer so rewarding is a nerf of a soup, not of a mono BA dex.

Also, it is false that soups have no faction and they can switch. An imperial soup surely cannot switch to an aeldari soup. This change has impacted all imperial soups. All of them. So yes, it is a nerf to soups, in particular to imperial soups. They can't simply switch to an alternative build, all the best alternatives have been nuked by this change. Now if you want to keep the old concept "Loads of cheap CPs to fuel powerful strats" which was the basis of these kinds of lists, you need 2 detachments of guards to fuel one of something else, while before with one detachment of guards you could fuel 2 detachments of something else. Doesn't matter how you put it, this is a nerf.

Take any soup list that comes out after this change and pit it against an old IG/BA/IK list pre change. I have no idea which will be the new lists, but i can tell that they will have zero chances against the old lists. This is a nerf to soup. Period.

The point is the CP regeneration change didn't effect soup via imperial guard more than mono codex's though.
It hurt Ultramrines and to a way lesser extent Guard

The increase in strategum costs effected mono Knights, Blood Angels and Drukari more than Soup

The changes to fly nerfed a lot of more elite flying models, whike making cheap screening units more powerful.

Mono faction and especially low model coint elite armies definataly took more of a hit from this FAQ than Soup.
While the composition of the soup list will change they are still more powerful than mono.

It's still going to be a bucket load of guard and a unit of something else to supercharge with CP until GW nerf it into unplayable and ruins more codex's.

 helgrenze wrote:

Karol wrote:
Maybe there were. I know the guy who had a BA army around my store had jump pack dudes, death company etc. All the stuff was killed off. Sure the codex has units listed., but so do GK, and no one would say that just because the GK codex has 20+ options to pick from it has a rich pool of units to pick from.

Anything post FAQ BA players can build is a worse version of an ultramarine list. And IMO it ain't fair, specially when GW nerfs the things that make the BA theme and which GW shaped the codex around. If the GW decided that stuff was too good and required changing, they are in full right to do so. It aint the players games, it is GWs. But they should give BA players something in return. They should kill a faction, and leave it for God knows how long in the dump. I mean where can people expect a fully update BA codex? next edition and that is a maybe, because GW has the tendency to copy paste their books, so they may as well end up with a codex that is the copy of the nerf book they have right now. It happened to GK three times since 6th ed, from what I have been told.

Ok, maybe I am missing something here. You care to list how the BA have been neutered in such a way that they are unplayable? I'm just not seeing it. I can only find a couple changes to the BA book listed in the FAQ, and yes I know there are a quite a few changes to the BRB and all.
So, How exactly have the BA been neutered to the point of effectively Squatting them?

They and marines in general are pretty darn lousy ATM. Only thing that kept BA in field was slamquinus being "delete big thing X" button. Now that screens are 100% effective and CP regeneration has been nerfed that model isn't going to be used as much. And most blood angel armis were 3x5 scouts, 2-3 smash captains...

Also with reduced CP it's choise between castellan and smash captain. As smash captains can't deal with castellans just like that due to fly nerf castellan is going to be more common and BA smash captains replaced with either SW thunderwolf characters(maybe), custodian jetbike chars(maybe though supreme commander det giving 4 less CP than bat hurts) or more IG to power up knight strategems.

Karol wrote:

Ok, lets say mono knights are maybe playable. Do you think BAs are going to exist as an army after the cpt nerf? Or RG lists or AL ?

Yes, I do.

Will they be seen much in tourneys? Who knows & who cares. Most tourney bound people will take whatever they think will stand the best chance of winning. So whatever that is, that's what you'll see the most of.
Will they be seen in plenty of games at shops & clubs & basements & dining room tables? Yep.

tneva82 wrote:
They and marines in general are pretty darn lousy ATM. Only thing that kept BA in field was slamquinus being "delete big thing X" button. Now that screens are 100% effective and CP regeneration has been nerfed that model isn't going to be used as much. And most blood angel armis were 3x5 scouts, 2-3 smash captains...

Also with reduced CP it's choise between castellan and smash captain. As smash captains can't deal with castellans just like that due to fly nerf castellan is going to be more common and BA smash captains replaced with either SW thunderwolf characters(maybe), custodian jetbike chars(maybe though supreme commander det giving 4 less CP than bat hurts) or more IG to power up knight strategems.

Ah.... You been playing soup and not BA then. Got it.

Given the +1 to wounds that the entire army gets on a charge, when charged, or when doing a Heroic Intervention, and +1 att on a charge, A Death Company is pretty badass. Drop in a Sang Priest for the +1 str and the chance to bring back a model per turn. Mix in a few 16pt THs, because why not. Plus you can drop them turn 2 after clearing some of that screen you are so worried about.
5 DC +Sang w/JP and 5 THs is @266 pts, compared to what I run, 5 VV +Chap w/JP and 10 LCs at 247pts. Both are 14 PL.
Yep totally weaksauce and unplayable. I see your point.

Karol wrote:
I know the guy who had a BA army around my store had jump pack dudes, death company etc. All the stuff was killed off. Sure the codex has units listed., but so do GK, and no one would say that just because the GK codex has 20+ options to pick from it has a rich pool of units to pick from.

No, none of his units were killed off. His current way of playing them has been altered. He'll be ok if he can adapt to that.

Karol wrote:
Anything post FAQ BA players can build is a worse version of an ultramarine list. ]And IMO it ain't fair, specially when GW nerfs the things that make the BA theme and which GW shaped the codex around. If the GW decided that stuff was too good and required changing, they are in full right to do so. It aint the players games, it is GWs. But they should give BA players something in return. They should kill a faction, and leave it for God knows how long in the dump. I mean where can people expect a fully update BA codex? next edition and that is a maybe, because GW has the tendency to copy paste their books, so they may as well end up with a codex that is the copy of the nerf book they have right now. It happened to GK three times since 6th ed, from what I have been told.

So to compensate the poor BA players (who're merely suffering the same adaptation woes as anyone else with a fly/charge combo is), you want GW to Squat someone else's army out of existence? How do you figure that'd help the BA lists?
But if they did, shall they start with your GK?

 helgrenze wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
They and marines in general are pretty darn lousy ATM. Only thing that kept BA in field was slamquinus being "delete big thing X" button. Now that screens are 100% effective and CP regeneration has been nerfed that model isn't going to be used as much. And most blood angel armis were 3x5 scouts, 2-3 smash captains...

Also with reduced CP it's choise between castellan and smash captain. As smash captains can't deal with castellans just like that due to fly nerf castellan is going to be more common and BA smash captains replaced with either SW thunderwolf characters(maybe), custodian jetbike chars(maybe though supreme commander det giving 4 less CP than bat hurts) or more IG to power up knight strategems.

Ah.... You been playing soup and not BA then. Got it.

Given the +1 to wounds that the entire army gets on a charge, when charged, or when doing a Heroic Intervention, and +1 att on a charge, A Death Company is pretty badass. Drop in a Sang Priest for the +1 str and the chance to bring back a model per turn. Mix in a few 16pt THs, because why not. Plus you can drop them turn 2 after clearing some of that screen you are so worried about.
5 DC +Sang w/JP and 5 THs is @266 pts, compared to what I run, 5 VV +Chap w/JP and 10 LCs at 247pts. Both are 14 PL.
Yep totally weaksauce and unplayable. I see your point.

So show me some BA lists like that that do well in competitions. Your home games don't count. Talk here is when people aren't fielding piss poor lists for fun

5 DC+sang? Dead meat. Especially now. You charge IG infantry squad(only thing IG allows you to charge now that flyers can't ignore screen) and then blows them up. DC isn't even particularly tough one. I have ran over 10 with ork boyz. They hit fine but don't take damage well. Before it could work when they could charge past screens so might actually hit something worthwhile but now...well orks will stop them with grots and then charge up with boyz and kill 'em. And if ORKS can deal with them poor fellows seeing how underpowered orks are.

tneva82 wrote:
So show me some BA lists like that that do well in competitions. Your home games don't count. Talk here is when people aren't fielding piss poor lists for fun

5 DC+sang? Dead meat. Especially now. You charge IG infantry squad(only thing IG allows you to charge now that flyers can't ignore screen) and then blows them up. DC isn't even particularly tough one. I have ran over 10 with ork boyz. They hit fine but don't take damage well. Before it could work when they could charge past screens so might actually hit something worthwhile but now...well orks will stop them with grots and then charge up with boyz and kill 'em. And if ORKS can deal with them poor fellows seeing how underpowered orks are.

You want a net list. Sorry, I don't really play BA, just know how to look things up.
And that was 5 DC with TH +Sang, Just an example comparing BA to what I normally run that was roughly equal.
How Many Orks? 20 or so? Orks are basically on par with any SM in HTH both hitting on 3+. Of course, Orks get more attacks, but SM have better armor so it evens out. Maybe your oponant forgot the extra wound from being charged?

Lets compare basic Tacticals between base SM and BA: same points, same statline, BA get Red Thirst (+1W in charge situations), BA get Defenders of Humanity (Claim Objectives even if out numbered), BA get access to Inferno Pistol, Base SM get nada.
Advantage BA.

If your only tactic is to leap over intervening units to hit the heavier units behind them, use actual fliers maybe? Or you could drop in a couple Land speeders for roughly the same price each as the Slammies, with better toughness, Better speed, more wounds, and better damage potential, and if you use 3 you get a speed boost.

It's not my job, really, to tell you how to make a list. It's on you to read the materials on your army and make your own list, play a few games, make adjustments... etc...

Just like everyone else.
Adapt and overcome.

Pure BA is not top tier. It has been in the 3rd edition.
Only soup lists make it to the top. This should be common sense these days.

Soup is only at the top because none of the Netlisters who created those soup lists want to tell people how to beat them.

It all comes down to tactics and target priority. GW's own Warhammer TV showed how Chaos could beat the IM/BA/IK list.

Soup is at the top because nobody has come up with non-soup that can beat them...If you think all are wrong show it. Go to big tournaments with non-soup and consistently beat soup.

And GW...Sheesh nobody should take seriously what GW says at face value. They don't even play the same game as the rest of the world does.

 helgrenze wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
They and marines in general are pretty darn lousy ATM. Only thing that kept BA in field was slamquinus being "delete big thing X" button. Now that screens are 100% effective and CP regeneration has been nerfed that model isn't going to be used as much. And most blood angel armis were 3x5 scouts, 2-3 smash captains...

Also with reduced CP it's choise between castellan and smash captain. As smash captains can't deal with castellans just like that due to fly nerf castellan is going to be more common and BA smash captains replaced with either SW thunderwolf characters(maybe), custodian jetbike chars(maybe though supreme commander det giving 4 less CP than bat hurts) or more IG to power up knight strategems.

Ah.... You been playing soup and not BA then. Got it.

Given the +1 to wounds that the entire army gets on a charge, when charged, or when doing a Heroic Intervention, and +1 att on a charge, A Death Company is pretty badass. Drop in a Sang Priest for the +1 str and the chance to bring back a model per turn. Mix in a few 16pt THs, because why not. Plus you can drop them turn 2 after clearing some of that screen you are so worried about.
5 DC +Sang w/JP and 5 THs is @266 pts, compared to what I run, 5 VV +Chap w/JP and 10 LCs at 247pts. Both are 14 PL.
Yep totally weaksauce and unplayable. I see your point.

DC is useless, as they cost too much. The whole codex is overcosted crap. It was really unplayable before this faq, there was just one unit that had a soup niche. BA CC options outside of the capt were crap before the FAQ. So you are partially correct.

Asmodios wrote:
and we are still going to see 10/10 soup builds in the top 10 of every major tournament

I don't really see a problem here. People like knights - knights as a mono army is pretty boring. People like IG. IG as a mono army can be boring. People like Custodes. Custodes as a mono army is pretty boring.

 helgrenze wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
So show me some BA lists like that that do well in competitions. Your home games don't count. Talk here is when people aren't fielding piss poor lists for fun

5 DC+sang? Dead meat. Especially now. You charge IG infantry squad(only thing IG allows you to charge now that flyers can't ignore screen) and then blows them up. DC isn't even particularly tough one. I have ran over 10 with ork boyz. They hit fine but don't take damage well. Before it could work when they could charge past screens so might actually hit something worthwhile but now...well orks will stop them with grots and then charge up with boyz and kill 'em. And if ORKS can deal with them poor fellows seeing how underpowered orks are.

You want a net list. Sorry, I don't really play BA, just know how to look things up.
And that was 5 DC with TH +Sang, Just an example comparing BA to what I normally run that was roughly equal.
How Many Orks? 20 or so? Orks are basically on par with any SM in HTH both hitting on 3+. Of course, Orks get more attacks, but SM have better armor so it evens out. Maybe your oponant forgot the extra wound from being charged?

Lets compare basic Tacticals between base SM and BA: same points, same statline, BA get Red Thirst (+1W in charge situations), BA get Defenders of Humanity (Claim Objectives even if out numbered), BA get access to Inferno Pistol, Base SM get nada.
Advantage BA.

If your only tactic is to leap over intervening units to hit the heavier units behind them, use actual fliers maybe? Or you could drop in a couple Land speeders for roughly the same price each as the Slammies, with better toughness, Better speed, more wounds, and better damage potential, and if you use 3 you get a speed boost.

It's not my job, really, to tell you how to make a list. It's on you to read the materials on your army and make your own list, play a few games, make adjustments... etc...

Just like everyone else.
Adapt and overcome.

There is no adapting and overcoming with the current BA list. Squishy punchy guys don't work in 8th. BA are squishy and punchy.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
and we are still going to see 10/10 soup builds in the top 10 of every major tournament

I don't really see a problem here. People like knights - knights as a mono army is pretty boring. People like IG. IG as a mono army can be boring. People like Custodes. Custodes as a mono army is pretty boring.

I actually find the imperial soup more boring than mono build Knights, Custodes even mono guard is less boring.

Each one shows of some level of player skill to pilot to multiple wins against a verity of lists.
Cherry picking the best tools from everything Imperium keyworded as per the last GT netlist doesn't show skill it shows someone just throwing money at the game to win.

A weak codex player like non Guilliman marines and GK's souping in some punch fine as those armies do need some help even in a casual meta. But knights pre FAQ, guard, eldar and tau codex's were fairly viable against each other even deathguard with some work could put up a good close game. Now some of those lists need soup for CP or have lost some of the limited synergies they had to bring them up to par.

 Marmatag wrote:
Mono knights are absolutely playable. It just doesn't make sense though to add another armiger when you could bring an entire guard battalion for the same cost.

The idea of "mono lists" is something that exists solely on dakka.

I would say about 80% of players I've met play mono armies.... typically about 5% play fluffy soup and the other 15% are trying to play as competitively as possible. I know its anecdotal but seriously im not sure how anyone could call mono armies some sort of dakka myth


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
and we are still going to see 10/10 soup builds in the top 10 of every major tournament

I don't really see a problem here. People like knights - knights as a mono army is pretty boring. People like IG. IG as a mono army can be boring. People like Custodes. Custodes as a mono army is pretty boring.

The issue is there is a large percentage of the player base that enjoys playing mono build armies. the fact that you are gimping yourself by not souping is lame. There should be a benefit and a cost to soup. in an ideal world 5/10 top lists would be soup and 5/10 would be mono adding further list diversity into the top tier

Asmodios wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Mono knights are absolutely playable. It just doesn't make sense though to add another armiger when you could bring an entire guard battalion for the same cost.

The idea of "mono lists" is something that exists solely on dakka.

I would say about 80% of players I've met play mono armies.... typically about 5% play fluffy soup and the other 15% are trying to play as competitively as possible. I know its anecdotal but seriously im not sure how anyone could call mono armies some sort of dakka myth


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
and we are still going to see 10/10 soup builds in the top 10 of every major tournament

I don't really see a problem here. People like knights - knights as a mono army is pretty boring. People like IG. IG as a mono army can be boring. People like Custodes. Custodes as a mono army is pretty boring.

The issue is there is a large percentage of the player base that enjoys playing mono build armies. the fact that you are gimping yourself by not souping is lame. There should be a benefit and a cost to soup. in an ideal world 5/10 top lists would be soup and 5/10 would be mono adding further list diversity into the top tier

Love playing mono. Have had to drop out of local tournies though cause of it. Tired of getting smashed.

Karol wrote:

Similarly, mono-IK and mono-BA are practically unaffected by the change. How many CP are they going to lose out on?

you must not be serious. Do you know how many CP both those armies needed? They had to run the IG CP generators, and their own to stay efficient for 4-5 turns. Without them they run out of CP turn 1-2. And while against weak or bad armies a first or second turn win is possible, it is not the case when facing good armies.

Yes he is completely serious, he's comparing mono-build IK and BA pre-FAQ to post-FAQ. Mono-builds in those factions aren't losing many CP to the FAQ changes. They are effected but it's mostly because some strategem costs went up.

Asmodios wrote:

The issue is there is a large percentage of the player base that enjoys playing mono build armies. the fact that you are gimping yourself by not souping is lame. There should be a benefit and a cost to soup. in an ideal world 5/10 top lists would be soup and 5/10 would be mono adding further list diversity into the top tier

Where are we drawing this line?

Am I using Amigers in place of Predators, because Amigers are overcosted or that Predators are undercosted?

Is using Armigers over Predators ANY LESS different than using marines over terminators / cultists over marines in terms of "not gimping myself"?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

The issue is there is a large percentage of the player base that enjoys playing mono build armies. the fact that you are gimping yourself by not souping is lame. There should be a benefit and a cost to soup. in an ideal world 5/10 top lists would be soup and 5/10 would be mono adding further list diversity into the top tier

Where are we drawing this line?

Am I using Amigers in place of Predators, because Amigers are overcosted or that Predators are undercosted?

Is using Armigers over Predators ANY LESS different than using marines over terminators / cultists over marines in terms of "not gimping myself"?

Yeah, the issue exist in monoarmies too and it is poor balance, not the soup. I really do sympathise and understand the desire to want to use the sort of models/army you like without competitively gimping yourself, but please understand that if soup was banned tomorrow it would not result that. It would mean that now instead of strengthening your weak marine army with some guard allies so that they can even somewhat compete, your marine army is just completely competitively dead.