Chapter Approved - The state of Primaris marines going forward

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**Bharring**

"Also starshot is some pure bs the likes of which marines can only dream."

I'm sorry that instead of 2 shot S5 AP-2 D2 profiles, Marines are stuck with only D3 shot S8 AP-2 D2 profiles. Oh woe is Marines.

**Xenomancers**

Bharring wrote:
It's the ignore-penalties-to-hit that keeps Reapers from just being substandard Devs. Aside from that, Devs do the pop-out-of-vehicle schtick much better - as their vehicles are much cheaper.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
(that, and like most Plasma, the Reaper high-ROF gun is D2 when it should be D1 - but the same can be said about overcharge Plas).

Dude get out of here - wave serpants are phenomenal. Aint no one taking a rhino - it's gonna be a razorback - WS even has double the transport capacity and many twin star cannon is now super cheap - we might even start seeing them. They also have an amazing weapon - with primaris killer mode and flat 3 mode for crisis killer mode. They are super good.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Freeflow44 wrote:
Newbie here, bought the Dark Imperium set and painted the Primaris Marines as Dark Angels, I won't be buying Azrael, or Sammael while I wait to see if they get the Marneus Calgar Primaris treatment, until then, I'll collect the Primaris units (Aggressors and Reivers) and will keep building my Death Guard Army

For what it's worth, it isn't hard to make stand-ins for either model.

**Spoletta**

bananathug wrote:
Eldar units should be priced like they are all Yanarri the same way marine units are priced like they are all within gullimans re-roll bubble.

Or take Gman and that weird death cult out back and shoot them (my preferred solution)

Either way hellblasters can't compete with the new and improved plasma cannon devs and aggressors are second fiddle to storm bolter troops as long as high ap, multi-shot, multi damage weapons are a thing (and there are far too many of them to put that cat back in the bag). So my guess is primaris will get a points cut to bring them in line with the new marine base-line (so sub 30 point hellblasters and aggressors).

Probably after the Christmas bundles are done selling so jee-dubs can get that sweet full retail on the new primaris meta. So spring FAQ?

Also, as much as I have criticized Insect's mostly marine body list that thing has made out like a bandit with all of the marine weapon reductions. Running tons of vets, sternguard and devs with the cheaper weapon options seems a really viable way to run marines all of a sudden. Primaris, not so much.

Marines are not priced like they are in a Gman bubble man, be real. In this same thread you find examples of marine models being compared directly to top tier models and without buffs they are easily in the same league.
Marine costs are fine for the most part.

**Martel732**

Bharring wrote:
"Also starshot is some pure bs the likes of which marines can only dream."

I'm sorry that instead of 2 shot S5 AP-2 D2 profiles, Marines are stuck with only D3 shot S8 AP-2 D2 profiles. Oh woe is Marines.

12" less range. And kill themselves. In an army that CAN'T AFFORD TO KILL THEMSELVES. IG plasma on the other hand, is turn it up to 10, and tear off the knob, because who cares?

**Xenomancers**

Bharring wrote:
"Also starshot is some pure bs the likes of which marines can only dream."

I'm sorry that instead of 2 shot S5 AP-2 D2 profiles, Marines are stuck with only D3 shot S8 AP-2 D2 profiles. Oh woe is Marines.

Very strong - it's actually ap -3

. But - it kills yourself. Currently with on demand -1 to hits....it is very problematic.

**Bharring**

Dude, where did I say Serpents weren't better than Rhinos?

I said Devs can pop out of vehicles better because their vehicles are much *cheaper*. Not that it's a better idea. Or that their vehicles were better.

As for "They also have an amazing weapon - with primaris killer mode and flat 3 mode for crisis killer mode", no wonder you hate knife-ears so much: you're playing against rules they don't have!

Now, Serpents are super good, but not because Reapers pop out of them and blow stuff up.

**Martel732**

Being immortal is pretty damn good, yes.

Plasma only functions atm vs armies with no penalty to hit. Get in a duel Carnifexes? Screwed. Drukhari? Screwed. Alatitoc? Screwed. Stygians? Screwed. Alpha legion? Screwed.

**Bharring**

"12" less range. And kill themselves. In an army that CAN'T AFFORD TO KILL THEMSELVES. IG plasma on the other hand, is turn it up to 10, and tear off the knob, because who cares?"
Well, with a 1/36th chance of blowing themselves up, that's not super common on it's own.

That said, a S7 D1 option is still in the same league as a S5 D2 option.

**Xenomancers**

Bharring wrote:
Dude, where did I say Serpents weren't better than Rhinos?

I said Devs can pop out of vehicles better because their vehicles are much *cheaper*. Not that it's a better idea. Or that their vehicles were better.

As for "They also have an amazing weapon - with primaris killer mode and flat 3 mode for crisis killer mode", no wonder you hate knife-ears so much: you're playing against rules they don't have!

Now, Serpents are super good, but not because Reapers pop out of them and blow stuff up.

Dude...

Starshot does flat 3 damage. What are ye saying?

Razors and wave serpants have almost equal point costs...WS has double the transport capacity. It's also about twice as survivable.

**Martel732**

Bharring wrote:
"12" less range. And kill themselves. In an army that CAN'T AFFORD TO KILL THEMSELVES. IG plasma on the other hand, is turn it up to 10, and tear off the knob, because who cares?"
Well, with a 1/36th chance of blowing themselves up, that's not super common on it's own.

That said, a S7 D1 option is still in the same league as a S5 D2 option.

No, it isn't. S7 D1 sucks for a heavy weapon. Get real.

**Xenomancers**

Bharring wrote:
"12" less range. And kill themselves. In an army that CAN'T AFFORD TO KILL THEMSELVES. IG plasma on the other hand, is turn it up to 10, and tear off the knob, because who cares?"
Well, with a 1/36th chance of blowing themselves up, that's not super common on it's own.

That said, a S7 D1 option is still in the same league as a S5 D2 option.

how? Against 2 wound modles the str 5 vesion is about 4 times as effective against 2 wound models t 4 models.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I'm no pointy ear hater...I play both DE and CWE. Admitably - space marines are a favorite army of mine but I aint no elf hater.

**Bharring**

"Starshot does flat 3 damage. What are ye saying? "
That Wave Serpents don't have Starshot - at least not the version Reapers have. They can take Missile Launchers - like IoM. And they're even better, being d6 damage - like IoM. They're overcosted, of course - like IoM.

Reapers have Starshot. Heavy 1 S8 D3. So it's like being Heavy d3 S8 D2 in that each shot will blick a 2-W model. Also like Heavy d3 S8 D2 in that it takes the same number of rounds of shooting to kill a 3-W model. It's unlike it in that *it's got half the shots*, so is worse vs anything with 1W, 2W, or 4+W.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Against 2 wound modles the str 5 vesion is about 4"
Umwhat?
You're wounding on same or better. You have just as many shots. It may take twice as many to kill a 2W model, but it takes the same or fewer shots to kill a 1W model. So, at best, 2x as efficient. Although, often, less.

**Galef**

Admittedly, I'd prefer the Reaper launcher to have the following profiles:
Heavy 1 S8 AP-2 D:d3 and
Heavy D3 S5 AP-2 D:1
But then cost less than 20ppm (plus the 12 of the Reaper)

Flat D:3 is a pretty big deal, as is D:2 on the multi-shot option. It really should be d3 Damage on the S8 version and only 1 damage on the S5 version (but have more shots)
I'd prefer them to be worse for damage, but them also cheaper.
It can easily be Errata'd to reflect this in the exact same way that Star cannons were originally 30ppm with flat D:3, but then Errata'd down to D:d3 for 15ppm. Now they are 13ppm.

The problem with Reapers is the lower risk/higher reliability. But they are absolutely comparable (now) to Devs with Plasma cannons in terms of cost to durability/damage BEFORE buffs

-

**Bharring**

I agree I'd like to see it toned down. I just don't agree that Serpents have D3 Starshot or half the other crazy that gets said.

**Xenomancers**

Bharring wrote:
I agree I'd like to see it toned down. I just don't agree that Serpents have D3 Starshot or half the other crazy that gets said.

I was talking about reapers and WS in the same sentence. Thought you'd pick up on that. It's clear serpants don't have primaris killer mode and crisis killer mode.

**Bharring**

Well, it was hard to pick up on that from "WS even has double the transport capacity. They also have an amazing weapon - with primaris killer mode and flat 3 mode for crisis killer mode". But the updated post makes it clear.

I'm still having a hard time seeing how H1 S8 D3 is so amazing compared to H:d3 S8 D2. It's equally powerful for 3W and 5W targets, but much, much worse vs anything else.

**Insectum7**

Martel732 wrote:
Bharring wrote:
"12" less range. And kill themselves. In an army that CAN'T AFFORD TO KILL THEMSELVES. IG plasma on the other hand, is turn it up to 10, and tear off the knob, because who cares?"
Well, with a 1/36th chance of blowing themselves up, that's not super common on it's own.

That said, a S7 D1 option is still in the same league as a S5 D2 option.

No, it isn't. S7 D1 sucks for a heavy weapon. Get real.

It's the same result vs a T6 model. Better result against t3 1w models (Eldar). And you got the overcharge and better AP.

**BlaxicanX**

Bharring wrote:
Because when I think "super mobile and focused on shooting on the move", I think overgrown super-man-apes in tin cans, not ninja space elves?

Big people are generally better at carrying big bulky objects then little people are, yeah. Did you intend to make fun of yourself with that statement?

**Galef**

Bharring wrote:
I'm still having a hard time seeing how H1 S8 D3 is so amazing compared to H:d3 S8 D2. It's equally powerful for 3W and 5W targets, but much, much worse vs anything else.

Not to mention Reapers are 34ppm for AP-2, while Devs with Plasma Cannon are now 29ppm (I think that's right) for AP -3.
Reapers are still better because of the buffs they get, but it's no longer the great divide it used to be.

-

**lolman1c**

Jes Goodwin in the latest podcast outright says primaris marines are a redesign of the marines. I don't know if that was a slip of the tongue or not. XD

interesting how he says he started work 4-5 years in advance. This has been a long time comming.

**Bharring**

Well, I do look like a large man-ape. But not super. Not even terribly fit.

**kingheff**

I honestly think that the main requirements for primaris is to almost split apart the repulsor. Get a 100ish point ten man transport with a couple of bolt rifles and something similar to the repulsor without the transport option.
Primaris units are decent to good but are not the most mobile. A cheap transport, mostly, solves that problem.

**Bharring**

Or let Primaris ride in Rhinos and Razors and Pods. And give them 1 special/heavy per 5. And some seargent options. And heavy weapons intercessors. And rocket-backpack intercessors. And...

**Insectum7**

BlaxicanX wrote:
Bharring wrote:
Because when I think "super mobile and focused on shooting on the move", I think overgrown super-man-apes in tin cans, not ninja space elves?
Big people are generally better at carrying big bulky objects then little people are, yeah. Did you intend to make fun of yourself with that statement?

That's easy, Eldar gear is much lighter than Imperial gear, and the Reaper Launcher shoots homing missiles.

**casvalremdeikun**

Martel732 wrote:
Drukhari can just dial up -1 to hit. Then your plasma is fethed. Double fethed if you have venoms to kill.

With CA, I'm considering triple Stalker.

I hadn't really considered running any of my Stalkers. But yeah, even if they aren't shooting a Fly target, they still pump out a enough shots to be useful.

Blood Angels getting access to Stalkers and Hunters is a real boon.

**Martel732**

Capt smash is the sheriff of the deredeo/stalker line. And then if he had to smash deredeo takes over. I've already got a list with double stalker.

**Blackie**

Durkhari only have venoms, mandrakes and flyers with -1 to hit. Tipycally a third of the army invested in units with -1 to hit. Ravagers, raiders, all the coven stuff don't have -1 to hit and are perfect targets for plasmas, especially raiders and ravagers. Sure they have invulns but also T less than 8.

They are also very sensible to Heavy bolters, assault cannons and autocannons. Of course bringing 25 lascannons and 25 plasmas will be a bad match up against drukhari, but maybe some players just need to adapt. Since it's ok to tailor a list in order to 1-shot a knight it should be equally ok to tailor a list in order to counter aeldari, or am I missing somethig?

**Martel732**

They can get -1 to hit on demand though.

**Blackie**

It costs 2 CPs, works on a single unit, and only affects some type of units. Usually worths it only for a large unit of jetbikes or hellions, which are units you won't see in competitive gaming.

The -1 to hit to a ravager it's completely wasted since the other two would be unbuffed and the opponent can easily ignore the single vehicle with a -1 to hit targeting the remaining two. It can be powerful enough if the opponent has a single main source of anti tank or against plasma. If you have the red grief outrider with 3x3 bikes, which is a competitive choice, you're investing 2 CPs on 3 bikes while the other 2 stay unbuffed.

It would be OP if worked on all kind of units, aka coven stuff. I never use that stratagem unless it's a fun game with my wych cult themed list or it's late game and I still have several CPs.

Also SW and orks can get the -1 to hit by stratagem. The SW one costs 3CPs but affects everything under the rune priest's 6'' aura. Rune priests can also give the -1 to hit to a single unit by casting a psychic power.