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Basic Marines may not have gotten a point drop, but near everything they can take (and primaris can't) got a point drop. My Devs are 20 points lighter, my Tacs will be 18 points lighter. Standard Dreadnoughts are looking better, veterans of all types are pointing up cheaper. Normal Marines seem to be in a fine place.

Martel732 wrote:
Lol what support ? Marine powers suck.

Character auras, maybe? Guilliman/stacking Captain/LT auras for rerolls to hit and to wound isn't a thing that most Codexes can do.

mini marines are now going to be fielded as Vets, Sternguard or devs across the Marine line. This is how GW is salvaging the mini marine for further use. The basic troop choice will go to intecessors and Scouts. Its actually a pretty smart way of phasing out the line withought making the models useless.

How do you think reapers do against ravagers, destroyers etc? I'll give you a clue...they melt, even with buffs from psykers that cost 165pts plus. They can survive one round usually. Whether you put them in the webway or a serpent to protect them the moment they poke their heads out they get deleted. That's fine, they're glass cannons, no amount of buffs change that, you just increase the amount of effort it takes to get rid of them.

 zedsdead wrote:
mini marines are now going to be fielded as Vets, Sternguard or devs across the Marine line. This is how GW is salvaging the mini marine for further use. The basic troop choice will go to intecessors and Scouts. Its actually a pretty smart way of phasing out the line withought making the models useless.

Imo this "phasing out" still won't happen. Not when Chaos is fielding 1W 1A, slightly larger marines that just came out. Death Guard, TSons, the new Blackstone Fortress models. . . What's more likely, imo, is the standard Marine line gets a slight upscaled recut and re-sold. It's been their most successful line for decades. They'll keep it alongside their new Primaris add-ons. Primaris are the equivalent of a new chapter, like the Grey Knight release was, or the Custodes release was, except it's a line of models that any existing collector of Space Marines can add to their army. They even made adjustments to the codex in-lore, allowing companies to build beyond their normal hundred guys.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Lol what support ? Marine powers suck.

Character auras, maybe? Guilliman/stacking Captain/LT auras for rerolls to hit and to wound isn't a thing that most Codexes can do.

None of that helps on the opponent's turn.


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kingheff wrote:
How do you think reapers do against ravagers, destroyers etc? I'll give you a clue...they melt, even with buffs from psykers that cost 165pts plus. They can survive one round usually. Whether you put them in the webway or a serpent to protect them the moment they poke their heads out they get deleted. That's fine, they're glass cannons, no amount of buffs change that, you just increase the amount of effort it takes to get rid of them.

I seem to be all out of those. Its almost like xeno shooting is really good or something.

Mathhammer suggests, without any buffs, 10 reapers kill 7 hellblasters, 10 hellblasters kill 6.5 reapers with their non suicide single shots.


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Add in a far seer and a warlock for the fnp and -1 to hit for 165 pts and you can add a second unit of hellblasters. How do you think ten buffed reapers do against 20 hellblasters?

kingheff wrote:
Reapers don't need to kill themselves, they just wait for a stiff breeze to fall over.
I took a unit of ten in an alaitoc with the psykers to give them another -1 to hit and a 5 up feel no pain. Didn't make much difference against my ad mech, phosper equipped opponent. With reapers I expect them to last a round unless I can fire and fade away out of line of sight.

They don't for a lot of reasons.

Wave serpant = safe turn 1.
Fire and fade = At least one 10 man can keep going if they don't have ignore LOS.
Then ofc 48" range means about 50% to 80% of your opponent army can't even reach them.





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kingheff wrote:
Mathhammer suggests, without any buffs, 10 reapers kill 7 hellblasters, 10 hellblasters kill 6.5 reapers with their non suicide single shots.


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Add in a far seer and a warlock for the fnp and -1 to hit for 165 pts and you can add a second unit of hellblasters. How do you think ten buffed reapers do against 20 hellblasters?

Does the space marine player not have to take HQ's too though? Won't he be paying 400 for Guilliman? Plus 2/3 Librairans with not great powers that don't really help the hell blasters? Plus that would be just 5 more hell blasters...

Tell me. How do hell blasters do against units that they cant see because they are behind a wall? How do they do against a unit that out ranges them by 18 "?

kingheff wrote:
Add in a far seer and a warlock for the fnp and -1 to hit for 165 pts and you can add a second unit of hellblasters. How do you think ten buffed reapers do against 20 hellblasters?

How do I think they do? About even considering adding the Farseer and Warlock just added over 150pts to those Reapers, making it an over 500pt combo. That's 1/4 of a typical army list. They better darn-well take out at least one of those Hellblaster units per turn, otherwise their dead before they earn back their cost.

The only time Reapers are OP (for their cost without characters) if when they are Ynnari and get to shoot twice (but that still requires a character). Fix Ynnari, and Reapers and Spears are appropriately costed. All other bonuses they get require several characters and CPs from an army the rarely has more than 10CPs for the entire game

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Sorry, I've derailed the thread. I just wanted to point out that as units dark reapers are broadly comparable with hellblasters and they're comparatively pointed. The disparity comes from the army rules, especially the ynarri soul burst, but that's not the fault of hellblasters.


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Also, should be fifteen hellblasters not twenty.

A marine with missile launcher or plasma cannon is a joke compared to reaper with no buffs. Just ask mr. Ghostkeel.

Plasma Cannons are a great weapon for Marines.

And didn't it just get cheaper?

Reapers are a base better unit, with more versatility, in a better army with better buffs. Is this even up for argument?

10 shots, 6.6 hits, 5.5 wounds, 5.5 dead?
18 shots, 11.88 hits, 7.84 wounds, 5.17 dead (or 10 effing wounds) + exarch puts another 1.5 wounds so double the wound output but close to the same # of models dead (one more for the reapers)?

Am I taking crazy pills or is someone really saying hellblasters are just as good as dark reapers? They are not remotely comparable units. The +18" range, multiple firing modes, always hitting on a 3+, exarch and not blowing themselves up are huge before you take the imbalances in the armies tactics/strats/powers.

Now run them with chapter tactics, so either the reapers are yanarri and kill all the hellblasters or they are the -1 to hit guys ending up 10 shots, 5 hits, 4 dead. (who cares about hellblaster tactics as you always hit, I guess sallies up the dead by 8-11% or still 4 dead)

Now start throwing in some real game strats, multiple fire profiles (with 50% more damage than overheating), +18" range, fire and fade, -1 to hit power, -1 to hit strat, deepstrike strat, 5++ FNP, more likely to be in cover, actual transports they can ride in. Oh and the leader with 2 effing wounds.

The two units are in no way comparable. 3+ always hit. I can't even shoot you for 2 turns if you take advantage of you 18" range (redeploy strat for even more saltyness) and will never shoot you if you just kite me. I can't believe we are having this conversation seriously.

The poster who said plasma devs are the right comparison. With the price reduction they actually out-perform the reapers before buffs by a fair margin (which is why all the plasma cannon bits have disappeared from ebay...)

2x 5 man units at only 260 points puts out 16 shots, hits 11.28 wounds 9.48 kills close to 8 while taking the same casualties as the hellblasters, if they can get into 36" range without moving, if they have to move they kill the same as the hellblasters 6 but at a 100ish point savings.

Hellblasters suck compared to these guys. I'm just mad I spent the last month+ painting 20 hellblasters and now have to do it all over again with plasma devs.

Bharring wrote:
And didn't it just get cheaper?

According to everything I've seen, yeah. My current list saved 50 points on Plasma Cannons alone.

Bharring wrote:
And didn't it just get cheaper?

What he means is they are NOW good weapons for marines.

Reapers are the CWE equivlent of Plas Devs.

There isn't a really good CWE equivelent of Aggressors. The closest we have are probably Fire Dragons and Wraithguard. But you won't see a ton of them (because CWE has even better tools).

The ability to move and shoot with a heavy with no penalty is what space marines should have - instead of stupid ATSKNF.

Because when I think "super mobile and focused on shooting on the move", I think overgrown super-man-apes in tin cans, not ninja space elves?

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
And didn't it just get cheaper?

What he means is they are NOW good weapons for marines.

They were good before, when you lined them up with the other choices available. They rate better than Lascannons vs. many vehicle targets, often giving the same numbers as the Grav Cannon. But they were 7pts. less than the Grav Cannon and had better range. They also didn't have the shortcoming of non-multiple damage vs non 3+ or better armor. They had good multi-role capability, too, unlike the Las. Now they're not just good, they're a no-brainer.


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 Xenomancers wrote:
The ability to move and shoot with a heavy with no penalty is what space marines should have - instead of stupid ATSKNF.

Just eat the penalty. Bring a banner and an Apothecary or two, if you like. And re-rolls, as always when playing marines. I don't lose nearly as many models to overcharging as one would think.

Also, don't overcharge if you don't need to. IG, Tau, and CWE infantry are only T3 W1, so non-overcharged is just as deadly.

 Xenomancers wrote:
The ability to move and shoot with a heavy with no penalty is what space marines should have - instead of stupid ATSKNF.

Or at the very least it should be an ability that Tactical Marines have, given that they have spent time as Devastators, so would have the skill.
Or even stand still and shoot twice like in HH. SOMETHING to make Tacs and Chaos Marine worth taking over Intercessor or Cultists, or even just going with cheap Guard battalions and ignoring Marine Troops entirely.

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I think you're seeing fewer complaints about Dark Reapers because the game has shifted again back to hordes (particularly with the points drops in Chapter Approved, and Orks).

Dark Reapers at current are a "strong" unit, but they're nothing special when taken away from the obnoxious Ynnari bs. My six-man unit(s) which I rarely field cost 209 points. I don't field the Ynnari nonsense, or Dark Eldar silliness. If I want to buff them I'm using up a 100+ point Farseer, or a 50+ point Warlock or Spiritseer, etc.

This means at the end of the day I have a very expensive Toughness 3 unit with Space Marine armour. They're still a very strong unit, but I'd argue they represent what Dark Reapers should. Of course as a normal Craftworld player we get penalized because of the Soup garbage that is so commonly abused.

 Elbows wrote:
I think you're seeing fewer complaints about Dark Reapers because the game has shifted again back to hordes (particularly with the points drops in Chapter Approved, and Orks).

Dark Reapers at current are a "strong" unit, but they're nothing special when taken away from the obnoxious Ynnari bs. My six-man unit(s) which I rarely field cost 209 points. I don't field the Ynnari nonsense, or Dark Eldar silliness. If I want to buff them I'm using up a 100+ point Farseer, or a 50+ point Warlock or Spiritseer, etc.

This means at the end of the day I have a very expensive Toughness 3 unit with Space Marine armour. They're still a very strong unit, but I'd argue they represent what Dark Reapers should. Of course as a normal Craftworld player we get penalized because of the Soup garbage that is so commonly abused.

Why do you say that this CA favors hordes? They weren't made cheaper. Actually one of the most common horde list (cultists) was nerfed.

Eldar units should be priced like they are all Yanarri the same way marine units are priced like they are all within gullimans re-roll bubble.

Or take Gman and that weird death cult out back and shoot them (my preferred solution)

Either way hellblasters can't compete with the new and improved plasma cannon devs and aggressors are second fiddle to storm bolter troops as long as high ap, multi-shot, multi damage weapons are a thing (and there are far too many of them to put that cat back in the bag). So my guess is primaris will get a points cut to bring them in line with the new marine base-line (so sub 30 point hellblasters and aggressors).

Probably after the Christmas bundles are done selling so jee-dubs can get that sweet full retail on the new primaris meta. So spring FAQ?

Also, as much as I have criticized Insect's mostly marine body list that thing has made out like a bandit with all of the marine weapon reductions. Running tons of vets, sternguard and devs with the cheaper weapon options seems a really viable way to run marines all of a sudden. Primaris, not so much.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
And didn't it just get cheaper?

What he means is they are NOW good weapons for marines.

They were good before, when you lined them up with the other choices available. They rate better than Lascannons vs. many vehicle targets, often giving the same numbers as the Grav Cannon. But they were 7pts. less than the Grav Cannon and had better range. They also didn't have the shortcoming of non-multiple damage vs non 3+ or better armor. They had good multi-role capability, too, unlike the Las. Now they're not just good, they're a no-brainer.


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 Xenomancers wrote:
The ability to move and shoot with a heavy with no penalty is what space marines should have - instead of stupid ATSKNF.

Just eat the penalty. Bring a banner and an Apothecary or two, if you like. And re-rolls, as always when playing marines. I don't lose nearly as many models to overcharging as one would think.

I lose plenty to overcharge. I really am expecting in the FAQ that all overheat mechanics get a rewrite.

Only cause 1 mortal wound on a natural (unmodified roll of a 1) Really though. The main reason reapers are so good is there can pop out of a transport - still hit at 100% efficientcy - plus they ignore all negatives to hit. They hard counter A LOT of units. They can also be made to be indestructable without ignore LOS weapons or something really fast that can flank them. Personally I don't have a problem with them right now - I think they pay the right points for what you get but maybe their squad size is too high. Space marine devs should be equally as feared as reapers but they really aren't. Turn 1 they are easy to knock out or they have to eat a penalty to hit. Turn 2 they are probably dead.

Drukhari can just dial up -1 to hit. Then your plasma is fethed. Double fethed if you have venoms to kill.

With CA, I'm considering triple Stalker.

It's the ignore-penalties-to-hit that keeps Reapers from just being substandard Devs. Aside from that, Devs do the pop-out-of-vehicle schtick much better - as their vehicles are much cheaper.


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(that, and like most Plasma, the Reaper high-ROF gun is D2 when it should be D1 - but the same can be said about overcharge Plas).

Martel732 wrote:
Drukhari can just dial up -1 to hit. Then your plasma is fethed. Double fethed if you have venoms to kill.

With CA, I'm considering triple Stalker.

I'm considering 3 ven dreads with Twinlas and rockets. Cheap - 2+ to hit so still reasonable against neg buffers. Plus with Ultramarines I can fall back and shoot with them. Did the stalker go down? I didn't see.

Wut? Serpents are god-mode. Rhinos are ... adequate.

Also starshot is some pure bs the likes of which marines can only dream. I'd like to get 2 damage without killing myself. My expensive models that are supposed live? Yeah, those.


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 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Drukhari can just dial up -1 to hit. Then your plasma is fethed. Double fethed if you have venoms to kill.

With CA, I'm considering triple Stalker.

I'm considering 3 ven dreads with Twinlas and rockets. Cheap - 2+ to hit so still reasonable against neg buffers. Plus with Ultramarines I can fall back and shoot with them. Did the stalker go down? I didn't see.

The icarus array did. BA dont' get ven dreads, so I use whatever leftover junk I can get. But stalkers are cheap T8 and Xenos seem to hate them.