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That's not even remotely true. Marine squads don't care about Doom - you're paying a lot for a fairly reliable chance to get reroll wounds against a ~100pt target. A target that Smite would eat half of on it's own.

Doom doesn't invalidate the IK codex. It hurts the bring-one-Knight-plus-Chaff-and-beatsticks lists the most. THat is the #1 list it threatens. Lists with multiple Knights still only have one target Doomed a round, so it doesn't do more against them. So the list it's optimal against is the top list right now.

If the list it's optimal against is top right now, how is it autowin?

Doom mainly just needs to only work for CWE units, not DE units. Aside from that, it's powerful but has always long been an iconic Eldar psychic power.

As for 8th's paradigm being off, well, it is, but this has been going on for several editions. The scale has run away on itself. We're playing small games of Epic at this point in many instances which tends to emphasize size and numbers, and we're dealing with lots of factions that have little place in the kinds of battles that the scale 40k is suited for, both up and down.

We also have too many units made with concepts in mind that dont have a place on the pitched battle field that is most games of 40k. Mutilators or Terminators for example could be terrifying in a game with boards more like Zone Mortalis and played at a skirmish scale, but they're a whole lot less interesting on an open field deployed against a lance of superheavy Knights.

Why it is the DE units that become particularly problematic with the doom?

 Dysartes wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
Change Doom so it only gives one unit a chance to reroll to wound and it can only target Asuryani units.

If you want to make it easier for your opponent to kill your units, go right ahead...

Not sure if willfully misunderstanding. Cast Doom on Reapers. Now Reaper squad only gets to reroll when they try to wound and not every single unit in the army.

Which is a buff when you're cleaning up smaller squads, but a nerf when facing IKs or Deathstars.

A buff to bringing Deathstars, but a nerf to bringing MSU.

Seems backwards.

Bharring wrote:
Because CWE need more of their power to be in the buff-one-unit form? Because they aren't pushed hard enough into playing deathstars?

The change you suggest helps Knight armies and Deathstar armies, and hurts MSU armies and Combined Arms-style armies. Why go that way?

What Deathstars? HQ units can no longer join units like in 7th.

Wraithknights don't really need help with wounding unless they are wounding Imperial Knights or something with really high toughness.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

Why go that way?

I am all for balancing Doom and in no way do I proclaim my idea is superior(or needed even). However, I would say that increasing WC8 on Doom is no better.

9-man Shining Spears with all the buffs are a deathstar.

10-man Reaper squads are a deathstar.

I didn't mean that the changes help the CWE player run Knight and Deathstar armies. I meant the changes help Knight and Deathstar armies facing CWE lists. If Doom only affects one target unit, even if that unit is a 9-man Spears unit, that Knight is going to be a lot harder to take down. Conversely, if you're Dooming a 10-man Reaper unit, that's a lot scarier for an MSU army to face than Doom as-is.

In other words, the change makes things easier for the current top list, and makes things harder for many of the lists that are currently terrible.

Bharring wrote:
9-man Shining Spears with all the buffs are a deathstar.

10-man Reaper squads are a deathstar.

I didn't mean that the changes help the CWE player run Knight and Deathstar armies. I meant the changes help Knight and Deathstar armies facing CWE lists. If Doom only affects one target unit, even if that unit is a 9-man Spears unit, that Knight is going to be a lot harder to take down. Conversely, if you're Dooming a 10-man Reaper unit, that's a lot scarier for an MSU army to face than Doom as-is.

In other words, the change makes things easier for the current top list, and makes things harder for many of the lists that are currently terrible.

The biggest issue with DOOM as written is it buffs Non craftworld units better than craftworld units making it ethier
1 undercosted as its only costed for the buff it gives to craftworld units.
2 it's working outwith GW's design intention and they need to learn to write what they mean the player's arn't all Eldrad and just automatically know how the games supposed to work.
3 they need to actually get address it in some way.

Ice_can wrote:

The biggest issue with DOOM as written is it buffs Non craftworld units better than craftworld units

How?

Bharring wrote:
9-man Shining Spears with all the buffs are a deathstar.

10-man Reaper squads are a deathstar.

I didn't mean that the changes help the CWE player run Knight and Deathstar armies. I meant the changes help Knight and Deathstar armies facing CWE lists. If Doom only affects one target unit, even if that unit is a 9-man Spears unit, that Knight is going to be a lot harder to take down. Conversely, if you're Dooming a 10-man Reaper unit, that's a lot scarier for an MSU army to face than Doom as-is.

In other words, the change makes things easier for the current top list, and makes things harder for many of the lists that are currently terrible.

So we get to the crux of the matter: Doom - as it is now - is actually fine. I would argue that Ynnari makes a mess of it, and having other factions being able to benefit from it is something that needs to be looked at. In other words: Doom is fine, but should only benefit the faction that is also casting it - the Asuryani.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

The biggest issue with DOOM as written is it buffs Non craftworld units better than craftworld units

How?

My guess is that people are allying a Farseer Windrunner to Doom units for their Drukhari siblings.

 Eldarsif wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

The biggest issue with DOOM as written is it buffs Non craftworld units better than craftworld units

How?

My guess is that people are allying a Farseer Windrunner to Doom units for their Drukhari siblings.

Yes, but how the DE benefit from the Doom more than the CWE?

 Crimson wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

The biggest issue with DOOM as written is it buffs Non craftworld units better than craftworld units

How?

My guess is that people are allying a Farseer Windrunner to Doom units for their Drukhari siblings.

Yes, but how the DE benefit from the Doom more than the CWE?

1 the hot garbage that is Ynnari
2 Harliquin haywire is clearly not costed for targets being doomed
3 DE haywire and dissis gain more than CW weapons from doom

1. T2 Guardsmen
2. T1 for all existing T2 units

Ice_can wrote:

3 DE haywire and dissis gain more than CW weapons from doom

How? Please provide some math.

 Crimson wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

3 DE haywire and dissis gain more than CW weapons from doom

How? Please provide some math.

Tldr the damage of a dissy cannons and AP vrs D1 and 0 ap of scatter lasers and suricanons.
That was pre CA18 though I'll try and check it tomorrow.

Re-roll all wounds disproportionately boosts s5-6 weapons vs all targets due to the wounding chart. DE have the most point efficient source of s5-6 weapon.

For the haywire it doubles the chances of inflicting the big mortal wounds for those stupid bikes by getting to re-roll all failed wound rolls when you need 6's to wound.

Honestly Dissie cannons are too cheap. It takes one of the best weapons in the game and makes it better which is why it disproportionately benefits armies that can bring that weapon to the battle field. Turning it into a kills all targets relatively efficiently from a kills marines efficiently. Same thing that Gman does for assault cannons (which is why both he and they went up a ton of points but for some reason the eldar equivalent has remained relatively untouched).

I'd change Commander Farsight just a bit to make him more reliable in cc and effective at range:

- A4 -> A5
- Dawn Blade: D D3 -> D 2
- High Intensity Plasma Rifle -> Rapid Fire 2

Knights would pretty much be fixed if they could only use CP they generated themselves. The Loyal 32 showing up and pumping a knight up is just bad game design.

Somehow this got off the topic of
OP units, and onto

Soup is bad, mkay

My fix to Flyrants would be to make their wings even bigger,
Just in case the guy on the next table can't draw line of sight.

Seriously, compare the model to an old metal Walkrant.

bananathug wrote:

Honestly Dissie cannons are too cheap.

But isn't that the real problem rather than Doom?

Doom makes an already broken weapon super broken. Same thing with ynarri and jet-bikes.

Restrict it to benefit CWE only, cast up to 8 and require LOS and it seems more fair.

The inter-faction buffing and non LOS are the two most busted parts about it (IMHO) with the interaction with haywire probably more busted than it's effects on dissie cannons (which is still busted).

I don't think diss cannons are too cheap instead, during index time they were more expensive and litterally no one used to take them. They're just extremely more effective if they also get doomed and the ynnari keyword. The soup is the problem, not the unit/wargear. Like harlequins bikes, they're fairly priced if taken in a pure clowns force, but they can become broken if souped with other space elves.

I'd hate a nerf to some units only because the soup makes them overpowered. I'd already witnessed the death of razorwing flocks, which were finally viable for the first time in decades, and thanks to the ynnari abuse of them nerfed into the ground after a couple of months. Please don't do the same with diss cannons and harlequins bikes.

As I always say, nerf the soup, not the unit.

 Crimson wrote:
Why it is the DE units that become particularly problematic with the doom?

Because DE have a source of S5 ap-3 D2 damage on a super cheap platform and harlequins have haywire blasters both of which see an absurd spike in damage with Doom and almost certainly were not costed with doom in mind.

Dissies could go up maybe 5 points(parity with Dark Lances). More than that and they would likely slowly disappear into the ether or make Doom mandatory. At least try minimal nerfing to see how it plays out instead of going for the kill.

As Blackie mentioned I would be wary of nerfing things because GW forgot to keep soup in mind. Only thing that changes with those nerfs is that it reinforces soup style of play as the only acceptable.

 Eldarsif wrote:
Dissies could go up maybe 5 points(parity with Dark Lances). More than that and they would likely slowly disappear into the ether or make Doom mandatory. At least try minimal nerfing to see how it plays out instead of going for the kill.

As Blackie mentioned I would be wary of nerfing things because GW forgot to keep soup in mind. Only thing that changes with those nerfs is that it reinforces soup style of play as the only acceptable.

Yeah, in fact one the ways I proposed to mitigate the soups' power creep was to introduce a tax in terms of points if someone brings units from different books. Like 50-100 pts. This way units/loadout that are internally balanced considering a single codex may be improved by the soup but also get an appropriate cost. It's not only a matter of combos that improve something, it's also the fact that some units (like cheap dudes in super elite army or psykers in an army that is designed to play without them) add something that may be extremely valuable, even if they don't get significant buffs from the soup.

Someone proposed CPs tax, but usually effective soups can be CPs not very dependant (aeldari) or they can dispose of a huge amount of them (imperium) so taking some of those CPs away could be not enough. Introducing a points tax, however, may balance things without screwing armies that want to play with no allies even if they have the chance to bring them.

This may be a suggestion only if we don't consider the most effective and easy way to solve the issue which is to ban soups from matched play.

Tripple dissy ravager vrs T6/7/8/9 3+ does 3.3 wounds 38 ppw

Tripple dissy ravager vrs Doomed T6/7/8/9 3+ does 5.6 wounds 22.3 ppw

2 twin scatter laser warwalkers vrs T6/7/8/9 3+ does .89 wounds 121 ppw

2 twin scatter laser warwalkers vrs Doomed T6/7/8/9 3+ does 1.49 wounds 72 ppw

The dissy gains 2.3 wounds from doom while the scatter laser gains .6 of a wound. That D2 and -3AP come in clutch.
In making it a generalist weapon, which is what Doom boosts like an Saturn 5 rocket.

Ice_can wrote:
Tripple dissy ravager vrs T6/7/8/9 3+ does 3.3 wounds 38 ppw

Tripple dissy ravager vrs Doomed T6/7/8/9 3+ does 5.6 wounds 22.3 ppw

2 twin scatter laser warwalkers vrs T6/7/8/9 3+ does .89 wounds 121 ppw

2 twin scatter laser warwalkers vrs Doomed T6/7/8/9 3+ does 1.49 wounds 72 ppw

Damage of both was boosted about 60%. Of course if you boost a thing that does more damage for its you gain more total wounds, but if that thing was able to do much more damage for its points than comparable options in other codex, then that unit is undercosted (or the units compared to are overcosted.)

Ice_can wrote:
Tripple dissy ravager vrs T6/7/8/9 3+ does 3.3 wounds 38 ppw

Tripple dissy ravager vrs Doomed T6/7/8/9 3+ does 5.6 wounds 22.3 ppw

2 twin scatter laser warwalkers vrs T6/7/8/9 3+ does .89 wounds 121 ppw

2 twin scatter laser warwalkers vrs Doomed T6/7/8/9 3+ does 1.49 wounds 72 ppw

The dissy gains 2.3 wounds from doom while the scatter laser gains .6 of a wound. That D2 and -3AP come in clutch.
In making it a generalist weapon, which is what Doom boosts like an Saturn 5 rocket.

....of course it does, versus vehicles. They are boosted the same percentage (ignoring that SLs would wound T6 on 4s) you're just starting from a much more efficient place because an anti-elite weapon is going to flex much better into vehicles than an anti-infantry weapon.

38ppw is not an unreasonable flex to anti-vehicle. An unbuffed helverin flexing into standard vehicles does 43ppw. a space marine with a plasma gun not on overcharge at a standard vehicle does 45.If you take an anti-elite or anti light vehicle weapon and try firing it into a medium vehicle, you tend to see in the 35-50 ppw range.

With Doom is where you start to see dissies pulling in the "as good or better than dedicated anti tank" range, while still being a really great anti-elite tool. When you start to do everything well, you have a balance problem.

So, could you bump dissies to 20pts, bumping them up to 42ppw and putting them right there in the sweet spot of efficiency alongside most choices that are good but not over the top? Yeah, you could. but if you resolve the doom interaction, you have a whole lot of other more pressing concerns to deal with before dissies having a toe over the line is the thing you most need to fix.

Simply make Doom only useful to Asuryani and Doom becomes a non-issue in non-Asuryani armies. I feel like that should be the first avenue to be explored in regards to this.

In regards to Dissies being good comparatively to other codexes it is good to keep in mind the other options in the Drukhari codex. Splinter Weapons are not doing much these days to their lack of AP and with the removal of Blasterborns(or Trueborns) it is harder for Drukhari to get better AP except for single Blasters and Dark Lances in Kabalite Squads(and Scourges) with Blasters being the only real option due to it being assault.

Again, I think the biggest problem with a lot of these discussions is based on soup problems and by punishing a codex for soup you are reinforcing soup as the only viable path.

the_scotsman wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Tripple dissy ravager vrs T6/7/8/9 3+ does 3.3 wounds 38 ppw

Tripple dissy ravager vrs Doomed T6/7/8/9 3+ does 5.6 wounds 22.3 ppw

2 twin scatter laser warwalkers vrs T6/7/8/9 3+ does .89 wounds 121 ppw

2 twin scatter laser warwalkers vrs Doomed T6/7/8/9 3+ does 1.49 wounds 72 ppw

The dissy gains 2.3 wounds from doom while the scatter laser gains .6 of a wound. That D2 and -3AP come in clutch.
In making it a generalist weapon, which is what Doom boosts like an Saturn 5 rocket.

....of course it does, versus vehicles. They are boosted the same percentage (ignoring that SLs would wound T6 on 4s) you're just starting from a much more efficient place because an anti-elite weapon is going to flex much better into vehicles than an anti-infantry weapon.

38ppw is not an unreasonable flex to anti-vehicle. An unbuffed helverin flexing into standard vehicles does 43ppw. a space marine with a plasma gun not on overcharge at a standard vehicle does 45.If you take an anti-elite or anti light vehicle weapon and try firing it into a medium vehicle, you tend to see in the 35-50 ppw range.

With Doom is where you start to see dissies pulling in the "as good or better than dedicated anti tank" range, while still being a really great anti-elite tool. When you start to do everything well, you have a balance problem.

So, could you bump dissies to 20pts, bumping them up to 42ppw and putting them right there in the sweet spot of efficiency alongside most choices that are good but not over the top? Yeah, you could. but if you resolve the doom interaction, you have a whole lot of other more pressing concerns to deal with before dissies having a toe over the line is the thing you most need to fix.

I never said dissy's were or were not broken it more they are clearly not costed appropriately to be effected by doom.
That was all I was trying to show with that comparison.

CWE go from bad to passable but your better with more appropriate weapons.
Dissy's go from good to insanely powerful by comparison.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eldarsif wrote:
Simply make Doom only useful to Asuryani and Doom becomes a non-issue in non-Asuryani armies. I feel like that should be the first avenue to be explored in regards to this.

In regards to Dissies being good comparatively to other codexes it is good to keep in mind the other options in the Drukhari codex. Splinter Weapons are not doing much these days to their lack of AP and with the removal of Blasterborns(or Trueborns) it is harder for Drukhari to get better AP except for single Blasters and Dark Lances in Kabalite Squads(and Scourges) with Blasters being the only real option due to it being assault.

Again, I think the biggest problem with a lot of these discussions is based on soup problems and by punishing a codex for soup you are reinforcing soup as the only viable path.

That was my original point but apparently had to defend that cross faction buffing is rarely well designed or costed.