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Made in gb
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle






 Peregrine wrote:
123ply wrote:
This is a major problem that has been happening all over the board. Its stupid. GW has completley made the game "non-friendly" to creativity


It's the exact opposite. By removing rules bloat and having fewer options you get more room for creativity in conversions because you can care much less about WYSIWYG. Think it would look cool to have the driver of that ork vehicle firing a machine gun out the window? Great, model it, nobody is going to get confused and think it's a weapon upgrade because no such rules exist. While it's tempting to only consider the "no model, no rules" problem I find that most people fall into the trap of assuming that anything that doesn't have special snowflake rules can't exist as a model.


No.

The mini may look superficially different but it is. Still. The. Same. as every one out there rulewise. I don't give a gak if lightning claws are a bad option for my HQ. Give me the option and I'll model it as at least it can be different to someone else's otherwise identical HQ.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/09 09:31:44




A GW fan walks into a bar, buys the same drink as yesterday but pays more.

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If you break apart my posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
Made in gb
Ork-Hunting Inquisitorial Xenokiller





I think you are right in your observations but are not necessarily assigning the right underlying cause to this change. I believe it's all driven by the technology available to miniature designers.

I have been wanting to post about this for a while and this is probably the wrong place but it's as good as any.

I believe we are now in "The Third Age" of GW Miniature products.

The First Age was metal minis which were almost uniformly monopose. Many were a single lump of metal with that traditional "wide but flat" look, which is a deivative of the shape of a metal mold.

Here's a classic example but we all know what these look like... Abaddon the Despoiler - a fabulous model for the time but now not so much - guns and swords pointing out laterally, very little depth.

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Chaos-Space-Marines-Abaddon-the-Despoiler

The Second Age is multipose plastic minis. Plastic mini molds suffer even more from the "wide but flat" shape... so with plastic comes the necessity to reduce the miniature into components and put them on an extremely flat sprue.

However, plastic is light and can be easily glued, so suddenly models can have parts which can protrude in many directions... or assembled to make a volume like a carnifex body... and VOILA! We have a massive jump in how viable it is to make a model that looks truly 3 dimensional.

With that came the explosion of products like the Tactical Marines kit (and hundreds like it) where you get bodies, arms, guns etc separately and you get to assemble them however you like. The rules then adapted to follow the models - remember at GW models always drive rules. They do not say "make me a model that can fill this specific army need". They say "look at this wicked thing we designed now go make up some rules for it".

And the rules for the 2nd age are "you can take x models and y of them can have weapon A and z of them can have weapon B except on a tuesday when they need weapon C". Total flexibility of build.

That's gone. It is dead.

The Third Age, which I believe we have been in for perhaps 2 years, is driven by the refinement of plastic miniature technology and more specifically CAD design packages which have brought us to the stage where models such as Mortarion or Celestine or the Idoneth Aspect of the Sea can be created.

Delicate yet strong, immesely detailed models which are SO FAR beyond what was possible before... they are genuinely stunning. The first time you see one of these things - tall, wide, dynamic, floating in the air... you think "wow".

And building them is amazing - some models you almost don't need to clean the mold lines as they are all perfectly hidden away in the precisely-placed joins.

WOW!

And GW has got hooked on the WOW factor. I think we all are to some extent.

But this CAD designed "best miniatures I have ever seen or painted" factor has drawbacks to the game, which are that the models have lost their "random kit of pieces" nature. The rules writers can give you the option to swap your Wazzbomber Squig Smashblaster for a Tellyporting Rokkitchukker if the model designers made the product so these pieces can be swapped in and out... but if it doesn't, they can't.


tl;dr - The rules always follow the models, and the models are driven by the technology.. GW are (to some people) currently too enslaved to the "perfect scultpure" type model instead of the "kitbashed from parts" models we have become used to.

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Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






HoundsofDemos wrote:
When medal models were easier to put your own spin on things, something is trending in the wrong direction.


Utter nonsense. The very fact that models are made of plastic means they're easier to convert, even if it's not designed as a modular multi-part kit.

How are GW "hostile to creatives"? They're happy to show off conversions and to do videos on how to kitbash models. The Astra Militarum, Adeptus Mechanicus and Genestealer Cult kits are specifically designed to allow you to swap heads and arms to make your own units. If anything, not providing rules for every possible thing you can put on a model is more freedom for conversions. When 3rd edition was released, you could suddenly go crazy with conversions compared to 2nd edition because of the simplifaction of equipment - and then the codexes added a million stupid bits of wargear on a model and suddenly giving a Tactical trooper a scanner because it looks cool isn't allowed, or those talismans you added to your Wolf Lord cost points you didn't want to spend.

The tradeoff is you can have multi-part kits or you can have more realistic poses where the movement flows through the entire model. Look at the Primaris Captain from Dark Imperium; the whole pose from the legs up all follow the raised sword arm. You can't do that with the old multi-part Space Marine Commander kit - you get an oddly static guy standing with one arm held at an unnatural angle. If that means I need to put five minutes more work into swapping his power fist for a bolt pistol, so be it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
if you want that level of detail in equipment, play Necromunda with ten models. It's ridiculous to worry about whether one guy has a wolf tail talisman or an auspex or he's scrounged up a power axe instead of his regulation chainsword if you're the company (or regimental!) commander.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/09 10:02:04


 
   
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Using Inks and Washes




U.k

The new line of models aren’t as easy to convert as the old ones but they are much nicer and better posed. Look at plague marines, complex squishy shapes with tentacles and all sorts all over them. Compare that to normal chaos marines. The old kit is very interchangeable and easy to convert but looks garbage and very basic. What GW do now is make models with next level design elements and poses that aren’t as modular. Anyone can make older style modular models, I even make some basic mounds at home, dynamic and complex posed models made possible with cad etc are the new capturing edge. If you want to convert them you can’t just mix and match anymore you have to get cutting again. Actually be creative.

Look at the old chaos marauders, with the flat arm connections. Very stiff looking but easy to convert. Now look at the poses of kairic acolytes, much more natural and rounded, more dynamic poses but you can’t just switch arms around. Now you need skill and imagination to convert not just kit bash. But it’s still easier than in the metal days.

The other problem is the people playing the game at the minute. The competitive scene who are too serious and up tight about the rules are the ones stifling creativity. Insisting on match play rules and not allowing house rules etc means play with what you have got.

There’s nothing to say the mek special or the shock attack gun on the new kits has to look like they official models. Use your imagination.
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




 Excommunicatus wrote:
It doesn't help that the 'Eavy Metal team have adopted a new, cartoony style on the minis they paint.

I remember being in awe of 'Eavy Metal, these days I barely even glance at official pics.



Not sure about this, before that gritty "realistic style" (around the time steel legion were introduced) you had the cartoony style from 2nd edition.



https://heresyandheroes.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/ultras_orks.jpg

https://heresyandheroes.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/strongholdi.png

I loved that 2nd edition painting style, I really like it when people paint the modern models in this style - especially oldschool ultramarine colour scheme on primaris.

I think customisation was at it's best back then too. I had some set called dark millennium with a bunch of wargear cards for imperials, webbers, vortex grenades, rad grenades, hallucinogen grenades, chameleonene camo. Also the codex back then seemed much more flexible, like you could build an army of all sorts of random stuff and I recall wondering what some of the models even looked like. One major letdown of the new kill team is that it doesn't seem to have that customisation, it doesn't even match the old kill team's customisation.
Back then 40k didn't take itself too seriously and I feel it was kind of endearing.

Bit of a nostalgic rant (maybe since I was a kid I'm looking back with rose tinted specs) but tl;dr I don't think the aesthetic changes are reflective of changes to customisation/theme - orks were cartoony and customisable back then.
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Grimtuff wrote:
The mini may look superficially different but it is. Still. The. Same. as every one out there rulewise. I don't give a gak if lightning claws are a bad option for my HQ. Give me the option and I'll model it as at least it can be different to someone else's otherwise identical HQ.


Why do the rules have to be different? Why is the character's uniqueness defined by having +1 STR/AP -2 instead of +2 STR/AP -1 and not by the awesome conversion you made using those obscure bits that nobody else even thought to use?

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
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Fixture of Dakka






That's certainly how I feel, but I'm an old fart. My favourite level of detail for army lists was 2nd or 3rd edition when you only had the army lists in the core rules. Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Ultramarines didn't need rules; just use the Space Marine army list for all of them. Make the uniqueness come from your painting and conversion, and your tactics.

I've seen plenty of fantastic Kill Teams I'd never have thought of; perhaps the best way to do it is to build the models without considering the rules? Just make some models that look cool.
   
Made in is
Courageous Beastmaster




Iceland

I am going to echo Peregrine's sentiment that I do not understand the need for special special special rules for every single option. I kitbash stuff for fun all the time and I see no need for special rules just to make my own - unique creation - special.

However, I am going to add this to the conversation: GW is developing into a game company and not a miniature company even though a lot of its strength is originally from miniatures. All those little boardgames, big boardgames like Blackfortress, various genre targeting games(large scale, skirmish, fantasy, sci-fi), and them cutting off ties with FFG shows that they kinda want to get to their original roots when Steve et al founded the company and make more games.

The motto that they were a miniature company first is a Kirby era thing. Nowadays they are definitely a game company. It's why they are bringing back all their specialty games back.

Cypher | Craftworlds | Drukhari | Dark Angels | Necrons | Emperor's Children(30k/40k) | Tyranids | Orks | Death Guard

Daughters of Khaine | Blades of Khorne | Stormcast Eternals | Flesh-Eater Courts
 
   
Made in il
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Honestly, the weirdest thing I saw on this thread was complaints about death guard of all things.

Death guard?
Heck, complaining chaos in general is hard to make your own unique looking dudes is hilarity. you got the entire chaos range, on top of the entire loyalist range, and any hybrid or mix you can think of between any of them as a viable option.

You want to make more custom deathguard? get a CSM kit, a deathguard kit, and mix them up a bit-it CAN be done.
Not every part, and not every combination-but some heads, arms, guns and especially accessories are cross-compatible.
Get some mark 3 marines that they are based off, mix them with the DG models and get "lightly infested DG"
And that took me about half a second to think of.

(daemon princes are my personal favorite point of how easy chaos is to convert. every single chaos player I know has his own custom prince that look NOTHING alike any other player's. and they are all quite obviously princes.)

Converting is EASY with plastics. reaching the same jaw-dropping quality of models that are out-of-the-box in modern kits is the hard part.
Heck, you can come up with nearly ANY concept-and I'm sure I can think of a way to convert something like that, though more likely it was already done.

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
Made in us
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 BoomWolf wrote:
Honestly, the weirdest thing I saw on this thread was complaints about death guard of all things.

Death guard?
Heck, complaining chaos in general is hard to make your own unique looking dudes is hilarity. you got the entire chaos range, on top of the entire loyalist range, and any hybrid or mix you can think of between any of them as a viable option.

You want to make more custom deathguard? get a CSM kit, a deathguard kit, and mix them up a bit-it CAN be done.
Not every part, and not every combination-but some heads, arms, guns and especially accessories are cross-compatible.
Get some mark 3 marines that they are based off, mix them with the DG models and get "lightly infested DG"
And that took me about half a second to think of.

(daemon princes are my personal favorite point of how easy chaos is to convert. every single chaos player I know has his own custom prince that look NOTHING alike any other player's. and they are all quite obviously princes.)

Converting is EASY with plastics. reaching the same jaw-dropping quality of models that are out-of-the-box in modern kits is the hard part.
Heck, you can come up with nearly ANY concept-and I'm sure I can think of a way to convert something like that, though more likely it was already done.


This. I did admittedly very mild conversions on my death guard to make them a little less spikey/horned for my kill team. It would have been very easy to use greenstuff or milliput to do further conversions. Saying these models are harder to convert than old metal models is just insanity.

The people who are saying these things are simply comparing these models to basic space marine / guard / boyz kits that need filler work and heaps of mould line removal to look even on the same level as new intercessors and death guard.

I get it. Complain about lack of datasheet options. That's legitimate. The models, though? They are objectively better now.
   
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mdeceiver79 wrote:
 Excommunicatus wrote:
It doesn't help that the 'Eavy Metal team have adopted a new, cartoony style on the minis they paint.

I remember being in awe of 'Eavy Metal, these days I barely even glance at official pics.



Not sure about this, before that gritty "realistic style" (around the time steel legion were introduced) you had the cartoony style from 2nd edition.



https://heresyandheroes.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/ultras_orks.jpg

https://heresyandheroes.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/strongholdi.png


OMG look how GW markets to kids and not adults. Ridiculous. The Heavy Metal team really needs to step it up.

[im]https://imgur.com/kEUzFF0.png[im]

http://insighthammer.com/ 
   
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The 80's was a camper time, before the Grimdark that 40k literally codified had permeated though all of society.

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 BaconCatBug wrote:
GW have also shifted their focus from adults with disposable income to kids with their parents income.
while I hate No Model, No Rules, this asinine line of thinking about GW dumbing everything down for kids whose parents buy them everything has been around since at least the beginning of 3rd. It was stupid then and it’s stuoid now.
   
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U.k

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
That's certainly how I feel, but I'm an old fart. My favourite level of detail for army lists was 2nd or 3rd edition when you only had the army lists in the core rules. Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Ultramarines didn't need rules; just use the Space Marine army list for all of them. Make the uniqueness come from your painting and conversion, and your tactics.

I've seen plenty of fantastic Kill Teams I'd never have thought of; perhaps the best way to do it is to build the models without considering the rules? Just make some models that look cool.


Both 2nd and 3rd edition had codexs and codexs for blood and dark angels. In third you also got black templars too. Even in first edition space wolves got their own list and models. With each editon (2+3) you got a army list booklet but they were only a stop gap and only temporary. Personally 3rd was a disaster and put me off playing until 6th. And 8th is the best since then but nothing comes close to second edition for fun. Still play it.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






 BaconCatBug wrote:
The 80's was a camper time, before the Grimdark that 40k literally codified had permeated though all of society.


That photo is from 1996. Nothing to do with the 80s.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Andykp wrote:
With each editon (2+3) you got a army list booklet but they were only a stop gap and only temporary.


Exactly - and they were better, IMO, than the codexes. I'll take the codexes for background, but rules-wise? Well, I liked 'em at the time, but I was only a teenager back then.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/09 16:53:22


 
   
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Quasistellar wrote:
Rose tinted glasses.

/Thread

Metal is clearly worse for conversion. And more rules doesn't make for better models. Just play count as

   
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Krazed Killa Kan






Bremon wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
GW have also shifted their focus from adults with disposable income to kids with their parents income.
while I hate No Model, No Rules, this asinine line of thinking about GW dumbing everything down for kids whose parents buy them everything has been around since at least the beginning of 3rd. It was stupid then and it’s stuoid now.


GW dumbed the game way down from 7th and is minimizing the amount of conversion work and rulebook reading required when assembling your models for the game (see the minimal amount of options for primaris aka the beginner army). Its not so much dumbing down for kids so much as simplifying things down for a more casual audience who don't research optimal builds or want to figure out how to kitbash a librarian on a bike. Honestly how can you look at 8th edition and think that its not extremely streamlined to the point of being a bare bones rule set. Its to reduce barrier to entry but unfortunately GW also gutted so much complexity that it ends up being just dumbed down when compared to past editions.

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 Vankraken wrote:
GW dumbed the game way down from 7th and is minimizing the amount of conversion work and rulebook reading required when assembling your models for the game (see the minimal amount of options for primaris aka the beginner army). Its not so much dumbing down for kids so much as simplifying things down for a more casual audience who don't research optimal builds or want to figure out how to kitbash a librarian on a bike. Honestly how can you look at 8th edition and think that its not extremely streamlined to the point of being a bare bones rule set. Its to reduce barrier to entry but unfortunately GW also gutted so much complexity that it ends up being just dumbed down when compared to past editions.


That's a crock. 8th is still far more complex than 3rd.

   
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 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 Vankraken wrote:
GW dumbed the game way down from 7th and is minimizing the amount of conversion work and rulebook reading required when assembling your models for the game (see the minimal amount of options for primaris aka the beginner army). Its not so much dumbing down for kids so much as simplifying things down for a more casual audience who don't research optimal builds or want to figure out how to kitbash a librarian on a bike. Honestly how can you look at 8th edition and think that its not extremely streamlined to the point of being a bare bones rule set. Its to reduce barrier to entry but unfortunately GW also gutted so much complexity that it ends up being just dumbed down when compared to past editions.


That's a crock. 8th is still far more complex than 3rd.


Didn't play 3rd edition so I wouldn't know. Its still on the simplistic side compared to the majority of previous editions.

"Hold my shoota, I'm goin in"
Armies (7th edition points)
7000+ Points Death Skullz
4000 Points
+ + 3000 Points "The Fiery Heart of the Emperor"
3500 Points "Void Kraken" Space Marines
3000 Points "Bard's Booze Cruise" 
   
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 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 Vankraken wrote:
GW dumbed the game way down from 7th and is minimizing the amount of conversion work and rulebook reading required when assembling your models for the game (see the minimal amount of options for primaris aka the beginner army). Its not so much dumbing down for kids so much as simplifying things down for a more casual audience who don't research optimal builds or want to figure out how to kitbash a librarian on a bike. Honestly how can you look at 8th edition and think that its not extremely streamlined to the point of being a bare bones rule set. Its to reduce barrier to entry but unfortunately GW also gutted so much complexity that it ends up being just dumbed down when compared to past editions.


That's a crock. 8th is still far more complex than 3rd.


8th is the most streamlined and minimized rule set GW has produced. Whether that is a good thing or not is a valid debate. To try to argue that it's more complex than any previous edition is not a debate, even GW themselves have admitted the goal was to simplify the game.
   
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HoundsofDemos wrote:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 Vankraken wrote:
GW dumbed the game way down from 7th and is minimizing the amount of conversion work and rulebook reading required when assembling your models for the game (see the minimal amount of options for primaris aka the beginner army). Its not so much dumbing down for kids so much as simplifying things down for a more casual audience who don't research optimal builds or want to figure out how to kitbash a librarian on a bike. Honestly how can you look at 8th edition and think that its not extremely streamlined to the point of being a bare bones rule set. Its to reduce barrier to entry but unfortunately GW also gutted so much complexity that it ends up being just dumbed down when compared to past editions.


That's a crock. 8th is still far more complex than 3rd.


8th is the most streamlined and minimized rule set GW has produced. Whether that is a good thing or not is a valid debate. To try to argue that it's more complex than any previous edition is not a debate, even GW themselves have admitted the goal was to simplify the game.


You might have had a point when it was index only, but there are so many layers to consider with stratagems, traits, relics, and missions that go WAY beyond what we've had in the past.

[im]https://imgur.com/kEUzFF0.png[im]

http://insighthammer.com/ 
   
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Outside of Stratagums, (which mostly boil down to some kind of re roll or x unit gets to do something obvious and awesome), all of that and more was present in 5th through 7th.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/09 18:49:06


 
   
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Rzhev

BoomWolf wrote:
 Excommunicatus wrote:
Primaris might have been a bad example, but the wider point stands.

I was very gung-ho on adding a Nurgle force to my roster, until I saw that the DG models (almost to a man) would require a level of talent far in excess of any I actually possess to be passable as an army. My Escher gang didn't reach the planned number of models because even at only ten-strong it was getting hard to make unique looking minis.

And while I am particularly bad at converting, granted, I feel like most people are closer to where I am than closer to, say, KrautScientist.


Just how unique-looking do you expect a horde of people wearing the same armor and using the same guns to be?

Did you ever look at an actual soldier? you can't really tell two people apart, and its intentional.


More than GW does, clearly.

As another poster said, if I wanted historical accuracy or real-world logic I'd play a different game.

One that doesn't include elves, orks and fishpeople.

mdeceiver79 wrote:
 Excommunicatus wrote:
It doesn't help that the 'Eavy Metal team have adopted a new, cartoony style on the minis they paint.

I remember being in awe of 'Eavy Metal, these days I barely even glance at official pics.



Not sure about this, before that gritty "realistic style" (around the time steel legion were introduced) you had the cartoony style from 2nd edition.



https://heresyandheroes.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/ultras_orks.jpg

https://heresyandheroes.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/strongholdi.png

I loved that 2nd edition painting style, I really like it when people paint the modern models in this style - especially oldschool ultramarine colour scheme on primaris.

I think customisation was at it's best back then too. I had some set called dark millennium with a bunch of wargear cards for imperials, webbers, vortex grenades, rad grenades, hallucinogen grenades, chameleonene camo. Also the codex back then seemed much more flexible, like you could build an army of all sorts of random stuff and I recall wondering what some of the models even looked like. One major letdown of the new kill team is that it doesn't seem to have that customisation, it doesn't even match the old kill team's customisation.
Back then 40k didn't take itself too seriously and I feel it was kind of endearing.

Bit of a nostalgic rant (maybe since I was a kid I'm looking back with rose tinted specs) but tl;dr I don't think the aesthetic changes are reflective of changes to customisation/theme - orks were cartoony and customisable back then.


I got into 40K in 2nd Ed. too, but I'd wager most people here didn't (and likely weren't yet born in 1996) so I'm just not including that far back in the statement. I'm talking about 5th to now.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/09 18:58:38


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 Daedalus81 wrote:
HoundsofDemos wrote:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 Vankraken wrote:
GW dumbed the game way down from 7th and is minimizing the amount of conversion work and rulebook reading required when assembling your models for the game (see the minimal amount of options for primaris aka the beginner army). Its not so much dumbing down for kids so much as simplifying things down for a more casual audience who don't research optimal builds or want to figure out how to kitbash a librarian on a bike. Honestly how can you look at 8th edition and think that its not extremely streamlined to the point of being a bare bones rule set. Its to reduce barrier to entry but unfortunately GW also gutted so much complexity that it ends up being just dumbed down when compared to past editions.


That's a crock. 8th is still far more complex than 3rd.


8th is the most streamlined and minimized rule set GW has produced. Whether that is a good thing or not is a valid debate. To try to argue that it's more complex than any previous edition is not a debate, even GW themselves have admitted the goal was to simplify the game.


You might have had a point when it was index only, but there are so many layers to consider with stratagems, traits, relics, and missions that go WAY beyond what we've had in the past.


Apples to apples, the 3E Rulebook lists provide by far the cleanest, most streamlined and best-balanced version of 40k GW has ever produced.

While the 8E Core Rules are streamlined, the amount of rules tacked onto the units, with nary a Universal Special Rule in sight makes 8E on net much more complex than 3E was, particularly 3E Rulebook-only.

   
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Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle






8th is a simplified version of 2nd, which in my opinion is a good thing. The idea that complexity in rules is necessarily better or more "adult" is kind of childish in itself. The rules are definitely not perfect, but they never have been.

GW has also always marketed toward kids and teens. I know because I was in middle school when I got into 2nd edition, looking at all of these cartoony, over the top models and art pieces in awe. You can't tell me that 40k is more "kid friendly" than it ever was, while at the same time being worse off or less charming for being less campy and cartoony than it ever really has been.

As for customization and conversion, trying to make custom characters out of metal bits was a huge pain compared to slicing up a couple of joints on a plastic model. You had to drill, pin and greenstuff everything and often had to carefully use a saw if you wanted to modify a model's pose or combine different models. If not being able to immediately swap an arm or weapon with a flat joint on a model that ends up being posed like every other space marine that exists, but with different gear, is enough of a barrier to keep you from "customizing" your dudes, then customization isn't that important to you. Intentionally taking a sub-optimal weapon that no one else is going to use doesn't make your guy "unique" and it doesn't take any effort.

I have an inordinate number of Plague Marines from DI and the PM box and I've somehow managed to make each one totally unique. Comparing the models to the old Plague Marine kit, or really any previous multipart space marines, I would choose the new ones any day. They are more detailed, better proportioned and more dynamically posed than was possible with the other kits. Who cares if you can combine 5 legs and 5 torsos in 25 different ways; you will end up with the same five poses every time unless you chop them up and put some effort into them anyway.

 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Most people haven't played third, myself included. I started in 5th and played 5th 6th 7th and 8th. My gaming group recently went back to 7th since we found it to be a deeper and more meaningful rule set. It didn't work for pick up games but worked very well if you had a like minded group who respected limits and didn't try to push the game to the limit.

8ths core rules are very simple and even most unit abilities are rather straight forward. Most abilities these days are some variant of a re roll or magically teleporting around the field. Not exactly that complex.
   
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VF-1S Valkyrie Squadron Commander





Mississippi

 Daedalus81 wrote:
HoundsofDemos wrote:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 Vankraken wrote:
GW dumbed the game way down from 7th and is minimizing the amount of conversion work and rulebook reading required when assembling your models for the game (see the minimal amount of options for primaris aka the beginner army). Its not so much dumbing down for kids so much as simplifying things down for a more casual audience who don't research optimal builds or want to figure out how to kitbash a librarian on a bike. Honestly how can you look at 8th edition and think that its not extremely streamlined to the point of being a bare bones rule set. Its to reduce barrier to entry but unfortunately GW also gutted so much complexity that it ends up being just dumbed down when compared to past editions.


That's a crock. 8th is still far more complex than 3rd.


8th is the most streamlined and minimized rule set GW has produced. Whether that is a good thing or not is a valid debate. To try to argue that it's more complex than any previous edition is not a debate, even GW themselves have admitted the goal was to simplify the game.


You might have had a point when it was index only, but there are so many layers to consider with stratagems, traits, relics, and missions that go WAY beyond what we've had in the past.


Complexity moved from the base rules to the data sheets; considering the base rules, 8E is less complex. Add in the rules that have moved to data sheets, strategems, traits and whatnot and the rules are easily as complex or more so than previous versions. I’d venture to say more complex as the rules are no longer in a consolidated place where everyone has equal base access, and many rules are now only available/known if you have a specific codex or faced an opponent with a codex other than what you are running.

Also, on topic, GW is in a weird state at the moment. Though the staff encourages kitbashing and tweaking models at a narrative level, their marketing and codex books are actively pushing against this in a “use officially sanctioned models as designed” sort of manner. It makes it easy for casual hobbyists to simply pick up kits off the shelf, assemble and play but it does discourage those experienced hobbyists who enjoy customization and kitbashing by making them feel like they’re doing something “illegal”.

Finally, GW has been taking at least a step back from the “no models, no rules” - for narrative games. We’ve had at least two entries in 8th where there’s a data sheet for a model that doesn’t have a kit, so they’re at least open to the idea of doing conversions-on-the-fly, though they’ve been very reserved, almost hush-hush about it. Would like to see them be more open about it, but since they’re still in the mentality that they want all the moneys for themselves (and pretending no one else can do sci-fi/fantasy grimdark besides them), we’re not likely to see much movement on that except in a few cases where the design team can slip in a model every few rulebooks.

It never ends well 
   
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Dakka Veteran





 Vankraken wrote:
Bremon wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
GW have also shifted their focus from adults with disposable income to kids with their parents income.
while I hate No Model, No Rules, this asinine line of thinking about GW dumbing everything down for kids whose parents buy them everything has been around since at least the beginning of 3rd. It was stupid then and it’s stuoid now.


GW dumbed the game way down from 7th and is minimizing the amount of conversion work and rulebook reading required when assembling your models for the game (see the minimal amount of options for primaris aka the beginner army). Its not so much dumbing down for kids so much as simplifying things down for a more casual audience who don't research optimal builds or want to figure out how to kitbash a librarian on a bike. Honestly how can you look at 8th edition and think that its not extremely streamlined to the point of being a bare bones rule set. Its to reduce barrier to entry but unfortunately GW also gutted so much complexity that it ends up being just dumbed down when compared to past editions.


The problem is 40k is anything but “casual”.
   
Made in us
Mutating Changebringer





New Hampshire, USA

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Most people haven't played third, myself included. I started in 5th and played 5th 6th 7th and 8th.


Where did you come up with that stat? I'd guess that 'most' started in 2nd. Myself included.

I agree with the OP and have been along that line of thinking since the release of the boxes army deals during 3rd. I made a prediction around 2002 (around the time that the rumors were telling us that plastic Chaos Terminators may be in the future) that one day there wouldn't be any customization or list building in the future. That eventually you would choose a faction that would come in one box that was built one way and and had a list of basic rules. It hasn't become completely true but it seems its slowly leaning that way.

Once upon a time everything GW made seemed to be based on its compatibility with the space marine kit. If it was made of plastic it could be combined with space marines. Beastman arms and heads, pistols, gear and grenades ect.
I have seen wonderful armies of marines. Armies where every marine was armed with a bolt pistol and hockey stick. They all had ice skates on and the rhinos all had zambonie devices on them.
I've seen Iron Warriors where every model is highly converted and kitbashed. Where almost everyone has a servo arm or a mechanical limb.

There is no incentive to do this any more. I longed for years to make an Old West themed space marine army. Revolvers and shotguns. Helmets that had a hint of cowboy hat aesthetic. Holsters on everyone. Ponchos instead of capes. Spurs on their boots. Red bandanas and a Sheriffs star as the chapter symbol. But there is no point following that pursuit any more. Maybe a kill team but it will never live up to the dream. No army/chapter would fit the theme.

Remember the 3.5 Chaos Codex? The greatest codex ever written. EVER. That was a book that forced you to convert and kitbash. You want tons of gifts and gear on your chaos lord? No problem but if you make him too powerful he becomes a daemon prince and needs to be on the bigger base and appropriately modeled. That was a rule!
Your friend played Grey Knights? Awesome, now you can have a psychic Tau Etherial or a Possessed Hive Tyrant! Nurgle possessed Orks?! Heck Ya!

Now we have a Grey Knight army that has no character and a Chaos army where Lords are all the same manufactured boring mcblanddull.

I kind of forgot my point... Maybe I made it.
I dunno. I stopped playing 40k regularly about a week after 5th dropped (played a few games if 7th and 8th). It just hasn't been the same. Maybe I was spoiled because I lived down the street from Dakkadakka when I was getting into the game and had countless opponents every day of the week and a dozen fully terrained tables to choose from (and that was before they moved to the other building with like 24 tables and 30 foot ceilings). Man, talk about remembering the good old days...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/09 21:12:23


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