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 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I don't know if this really impacts Terminators much. They were always dropping in Rapid Fire range to begin with. Perhaps if they are coming out of the Land Raider Crusader that suddenly became much more scary, but Teleport Strike Terminators were never shooting less than their full profile.

Sure, but now those Terminators that would rather not be in close combat can teleport in farther away and retain their effectiveness. Like Scarab Occult Terminators, for instance.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I don't know if this really impacts Terminators much. They were always dropping in Rapid Fire range to begin with. Perhaps if they are coming out of the Land Raider Crusader that suddenly became much more scary, but Teleport Strike Terminators were never shooting less than their full profile.

Sure, but now those Terminators that would rather not be in close combat can teleport in farther away and retain their effectiveness. Like Scarab Occult Terminators, for instance.

Works for me. I want to see Terminators of all flavors viable again.

This buff is actually pretty underwhelming. It just means that terminators and the like will get their 4 shots at 24" instead of 12". Since many terminators deep strike within 9" of an enemy, they're already getting 4 shots. A few vehicles will get some upgrades from this. Stormravens will get a lot more shots with hurricane bolters at longer range. Oh, and stationary vanilla and primaris marines will get a few extra shots.

It's not really that huge of a buff, but at least its a step in the right direction. No meta will be changed, really.

I was already thinking of trying some Deathwatch Terminators. Bring able to drop them into cover for the 1+ and still hose something down with 20 SIA shots from 2 feet away for 155 seems very promising.

I don’t quite understand the wording (doesn’t help that I haven’t played in 8th).

So auto bolt rifles get 4 shots at half range now?

MattW wrote:
I don’t quite understand the wording (doesn’t help that I haven’t played in 8th).

So auto bolt rifles get 4 shots at half range now?

No, they get 2 shots at half range, or 2 shots at full range if they remain stationary. Terminators, vehicles, centurion always get 2 shots at full range now (per point of rapid fire, so storm bolters are 4 shots at full range, ect)

Clearly, if nothing else changes before this rule gets out, the emphasis has got to change, because of how frequently people misinterpret its overlap with RF...

I like it, especially BECAUSE it doesn't massively change the meta or make any units OP. The improved viability of Terminators is clearly in GW's best interests, since they have been a "no take" unit for me for a while just because they die so easily and are so expensive. So, a little tweak, and maybe people buy or run more Terminators or Bikes? Sounds like good business sense to me.

drbored wrote:
This buff is actually pretty underwhelming. It just means that terminators and the like will get their 4 shots at 24" instead of 12". Since many terminators deep strike within 9" of an enemy, they're already getting 4 shots.

they already get shots at 12" which most of the time is at the unit they are gonna wanan charge and a savvy opponent removes closest models. You are not considering the 24" when you deep strike means they can target a whole load of other units in the enemy lines they would not of been able to before

 Latro_ wrote:

drbored wrote:
This buff is actually pretty underwhelming. It just means that terminators and the like will get their 4 shots at 24" instead of 12". Since many terminators deep strike within 9" of an enemy, they're already getting 4 shots.

they already get shots at 12" which most of the time is at the unit they are gonna wanan charge and a savvy opponent removes closest models. You are not considering the 24" when you deep strike means they can target a whole load of other units in the enemy lines they would not of been able to before

Yep. Especially useful because generally storm bolters are good vs cheap chaff while terminator h2h is not at it's best vs cheap chaff anyway. Shoot storm bolters vs chaff, charge something that's worth charging with terminators.

With my orks as well generally I shoot entirely different unit and that's one reason why I usually have mix of shootas. I don't want to shoot at the target I'm landing next to unless I somehow can cover it from enough angles removing closests isn't worry. This makes it easier for terminators to do similar and unlike orks their h2h and shooty weapons are also aimed at different types of targets...

Oh great. More Special Rules for the Bloat Throne. Why not just give a +1 BS if you feel the units are underpowered and be done with it?

 Kosake wrote:
Oh great. More Special Rules for the Bloat Throne. Why not just give a +1 BS if you feel the units are underpowered and be done with it?

Welcome to 8th ed. It was coming to this path the moment bespoken rules were introduced.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Again, this is a Beta rule and is on WHC for free. They anticipated that criticism.

Personally, I think this is another instance of them reacting to the leaks, rather than anticipating any potential backlash. By doing a WHC article, it essentially invalidates the need to buy the WD, which is one of the main reasons why they are being put in there to begin with.

They might have released a WHC article on it in the week after the WD release though, to ensure the changes reach all the community (but they haven’t done that for the Crimson Fist stuff yet).



Automatically Appended Next Post:

John D Law wrote:
Was this already brought up somewhere else.

Added the pic to the OP.

Assassins mini-dex does open up some interesting options going forward, but, from other rumours of people who know people that know someone that knows a playtester or two, the current outlook for Assassins is not good. Apparently a lot is changing with them, especially with how they deploy, which is possibly going to reduce how often we see them, rather than increase their presence.

Assassins mini-dex does open up some interesting options going forward, but, from other rumours of people who know people that know someone that knows a playtester or two, the current outlook for Assassins is not good. Apparently a lot is changing with them, especially with how they deploy, which is possibly going to reduce how often we see them, rather than increase their presence.

I hope thats not the case, Assassins are my favorite models (I've got 16 of them!). I know they're not really competitive but I had hoped this dex would be adding a few stratagems, maybe a relic or two and that would be it.

Sucks they're being hit with the nerf bat

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Well, I guess I am adding Duty's Burden into my list. 4 shots at 36" range, Str 5, AP-2, 2D. Yes please!

It's amazing how mismatched some of the relics are. This one is fantastic, yet the DA special Stormbolter is 24" Rapid Fire 2, S4 -1 2D. Pretty sad.

tneva82 wrote:

 Kosake wrote:
Oh great. More Special Rules for the Bloat Throne. Why not just give a +1 BS if you feel the units are underpowered and be done with it?

Welcome to 8th ed. It was coming to this path the moment bespoken rules were introduced.

Well, everyone wanted a "living ruleset" and this is it. Be careful what we wish for, I guess.
This is specifically why I didn't want a living ruleset. Because I knew it would lead to having to constantly check for new rules and have multiple sources.

On the bright side, this rule is a step in the right direction, thought I'd like something simpler. Like all RF Bolt weapons get +1RF.
So Boltguns would be RF2, Stormbolters RF3, etc. It give more shots overall and still encourages getting closer.
And is doesn't require "conditions" outside of the normal RF rules

-

Still prefer this incarnation of the "living ruleset" to the dumpster fire of 6th and 7th edition, and the years-long wait for army updates of past editions.

A death watch vet with storm shield and storm bolter at 20 ppm was already solid, this makes them really scary. Next to a watch captain with the right mission tactic they are going to hose stuff down.

 Red Corsair wrote:
A death watch vet with storm shield and storm bolter at 20 ppm was already solid, this makes them really scary. Next to a watch captain with the right mission tactic they are going to hose stuff down.

Meh, to do it they have to be static so while it's good firepower it's not going to push them any higher up. The true winners in this are pretty much terminators and bikers.

Kdash wrote:

Assassins mini-dex does open up some interesting options going forward, but, from other rumours of people who know people that know someone that knows a playtester or two, the current outlook for Assassins is not good. Apparently a lot is changing with them, especially with how they deploy, which is possibly going to reduce how often we see them, rather than increase their presence.

Well that sucks. I wanted MORE reasons to run my Assassins not less. I was planning on EvEvCu or CuCuEv. Hopefully they didn't get wrecked.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Meh, to do it they have to be static so while it's good firepower it's not going to push them any higher up. The true winners in this are pretty much terminators and bikers.

Terminators usually drop within 12 so it doesn't change a ton; Bikes, when upgrading weapons doesn't replace their combi bolter and they have a high movement looks like you'll have some strong kiting potential, or more flexibly hopping around cover.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

MattW wrote:
I don’t quite understand the wording (doesn’t help that I haven’t played in 8th).

So auto bolt rifles get 4 shots at half range now?

No, they get 2 shots at half range, or 2 shots at full range if they remain stationary. Terminators, vehicles, centurion always get 2 shots at full range now (per point of rapid fire, so storm bolters are 4 shots at full range, ect)

Actually it does neither because ABL is not rapid fire...

tneva82 wrote:

 Kosake wrote:
Oh great. More Special Rules for the Bloat Throne. Why not just give a +1 BS if you feel the units are underpowered and be done with it?

Welcome to 8th ed. It was coming to this path the moment bespoken rules were introduced.

Yeah, because a rule changing how bolters work is totally not the same as USR from previous editions. Oh wait--

Day 834 of complaining about 8th edition for stuff that was much worse in 6th/7th proceeds, I see

 Galef wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Kosake wrote:
Oh great. More Special Rules for the Bloat Throne. Why not just give a +1 BS if you feel the units are underpowered and be done with it?

Welcome to 8th ed. It was coming to this path the moment bespoken rules were introduced.

Well, everyone wanted a "living ruleset" and this is it. Be careful what we wish for, I guess.
This is specifically why I didn't want a living ruleset. Because I knew it would lead to having to constantly check for new rules and have multiple sources.

On the bright side, this rule is a step in the right direction, thought I'd like something simpler. Like all RF Bolt weapons get +1RF.
So Boltguns would be RF2, Stormbolters RF3, etc. It give more shots overall and still encourages getting closer.
And is doesn't require "conditions" outside of the normal RF rules

-

Except it's not a living ruleset problem. A living ruleset is fine, when it's done right. it's something that could just be adjusted the way you just described. Giving Bolters one more shot is even something you can pencil into your Codices. But that would be too simple! Lets restrict it to just two factions (what about sisters, they like bolters nearly as much as marines do), add some a halfton of text that needs to be checked against infantry type rules, weapon profiles and weapon type rules and call that living ruleset instead. Wheee...

As for those who blame this on 8th Ed - honestly, here I don't see any difference to 6th or 7th. Those were allready chock-full of special rules with every unit and their designated leader having at least 4 USRs and some unique equipment on top. 8th has done away with a couple of random tables (i think..?) but the USR spam remained. Aside from turning the game into an unholy rule archivist fest, half the rules are so marginal or situational that they could've been dropped altogether while the other half could probably be recreated by changing some profile stat by 1 or 2 and result in the same effect, within a couple percent tollerance.

I hope they change the hit on 6's for the culexus assassins, those have always been a pain to me.

 Galef wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Kosake wrote:
Oh great. More Special Rules for the Bloat Throne. Why not just give a +1 BS if you feel the units are underpowered and be done with it?

Welcome to 8th ed. It was coming to this path the moment bespoken rules were introduced.

Well, everyone wanted a "living ruleset" and this is it. Be careful what we wish for, I guess.
This is specifically why I didn't want a living ruleset. Because I knew it would lead to having to constantly check for new rules and have multiple sources.

On the bright side, this rule is a step in the right direction, thought I'd like something simpler. Like all RF Bolt weapons get +1RF.
So Boltguns would be RF2, Stormbolters RF3, etc. It give more shots overall and still encourages getting closer.
And is doesn't require "conditions" outside of the normal RF rules

-

We wanted a living ruleset, with a digital format that is kept up to date.

It’s a Beta rule anyway.
So surely you don’t need to adopt it till the official update I.e. new codex or CA2019 etc?

They need to make assassins like they did in 2nd edition.absolute horror monsters that can go toe to toe with anything, with amazing deployment rules etc etc, but cost them appropriately and you can only have 1, and not 1x of each type, I mean 1. You want more than one? You need to play apocalypse, and then you can only have 4x which is one of each temple.

Be interesting to see if they include the Vanus and venenem temples in the form of special stratagems.

 Riddick40k wrote:
I hope they change the hit on 6's for the culexus assassins, those have always been a pain to me.

Well, right now it changes the BS/WS to 6+. It should just make it that you can only ever hit it on a roll of a 6. It is a cool feature, I don't see it going away.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
They need to make assassins like they did in 2nd edition. absolute horror monsters that can go toe to toe with anything, with amazing deployment rules etc etc, but cost them appropriately and you can only have 1, and not 1x of each type, I mean 1. You want more than one? You need to play apocalypse, and then you can only have 4x which is one of each temple.

That was the golden age of assassins
Considering how thin it was, that 2nd edition book was a cool codex.

Assassins clearly weren't well thought out in this edition, especially in terms of how they fit into detachments.

Apparently they threw Inquisitors under a bus beacuse of the stupidity of "they don't show up on battlefields - despite ALL their own fluff of where they do exactly that FFS

Lets hope they don't do the same to Assassins.